<p>Packers,
Am I right that you live in the Midwest? If so, it would make sense that people who have gone to school at Ivies would not be conforming to Midwestern cultural norms, which differ from the norms of the Northeast (which tend to value more highly debate, sarcasm, direct talking, showing confidence in oneself, etc.). Those things are viewed by Midwesteners as being signs that a person is egotistical and obnoxious.</p>
<p>The things that the Midwest tends to value more seem to be friendliness, team spirit, down to earthness and tact. Those can be viewed by Northeasterners as signs of being passive, passive-aggressive, obsequious and taken over by groupthink.</p>
<p>All of these regional differences are reasons why it’s probably true that Ivy League diplomas open far more doors in big ciites in the NE than they do in other parts of the country, which for various reasons, may value more highly grads of their top instate publics.</p>
<p>I don’t understand. All these parents’ looking for academic schools with strong students for their kids and St. Johns in Maryland did not fill its 250 spots as of the first week of May. </p>
<p>Millions of students in this country and the school couldn’t fill 250 spots.</p>
<p>There is no other college quite like St. John’s. Through sustained engagement with the works of great thinkers and through genuine discussion with peers, students at St. John’s College cultivate habits of mind that will last a lifetime: a deepened capacity for reflective thought, an appreciation of the persisting questions of human existence, an abiding love of serious conversation, and a lasting love of inquiry.</p>
<p>""I, for one, would still like to hear more recommendations from parents for schools where passionate students can “hang out” and converse with like minded souls and dream of improving the world. "</p>
<p>I’m interested, too. I’d also add that the students be graduating on time and taking actions to improve the world, not just dreaming about it. </p>
<p>And if these colleges would cost less than $40 k a year, that would be even better!"</p>
<p>Evergreen. It’s cheap, too. They tend to stick around, but 8 years at Evergreen still works out to well less than 4 years at $45k.</p>
<p>My d’s school fits the bill pretty well, but the list price is well up there.</p>
<p>wsox, the concern isn’t that neurotic. If you go back farther in this thread you’ll read in more detail what #681 is alluding to about regional differences with regard to how valuable an Ivy degree is. In some parts of the country it is not particularly a positive, or at least not as advantageous as a degree from the flagship state U.</p>
<p>And the attitude is hard to ignore when those close to us such as my own parents have accused us of snobbery.</p>
<p>Quite unusual at HYPetc. The national average is over $21,000 in debt for graduates of private four-year colleges. For the minority (less than 1/3) of HYP graduates who have debt, the average is far lower, around $15,000 at Yale, $9000 at Harvard, and $5000 at Princeton.</p>
<p>If a family needs to borrow six figures for these schools, I agree that we are probably are looking at a situation where the family is unwilling to make lifestyle changes to pay for an expensive school…which is a legitimate choice, but really not a question of “need.”</p>
<p>My parents started paying tuition when my oldest sister started preschool in 1969 and kept going for 33 years, until I graduated from law school in 2002. We lived very differently than we would have if we’d gone to public schools all the way through.</p>
<p>“I believe most on these threads would say that admissions at elite schools would require both natural ability and hard work. Not many at the topmost elites would qualify as grinders.”</p>
<p>That has not been our recent experience - although it was the case in my time - back when dinosaurs roamed the earth <grin>. It appears, based upon our experience, that more “grinding” is occuring today. </grin></p>
<p>My daugher has seen classmates admitted to Harvard, Princeton, CalTech, Columbia and MIT who were “at the breaking point” in highschool. They had withdrawn from activities, social events, etc. and were still studying until 3 or 4 am. One went to the ER the day before her BC Calc exam with a “panic attack”. </p>
<p>These kids have prepped/studied themselves into perfect SAT/ACT’s. Numerous AP classes with all 5’s on the exam. Their self-discipline and hard work cannot be denied. But, there is a huge difference between them and the students who are achieving similar results while enjoying life. My daugher is hoping to find a school filled with the latter.</p>
<p>She received a phone call from a friend at Harvard last year who told her she feels she was sold a “bill of goods”. She worked her whole life to attend a school where she could finally find the friendships she craved. And, instead, all she had found were kids who had “no time” for anything other than schoolwork. </p>
<p>That is why I joined this list. I wanted to expand my experience beyond that of our competitive suburban world. I wanted to find out if these kids were “typical admits” to the “elite” colleges. I have to say, if so, we’ll pass. But, if not, I’d love to know where the kids my daugher wants to meet go to school.</p>
<p>Curm, I agree, many conversations at once here! :eek:</p>
<p>TheGFG, I agree with your last post. People would not suggest that the top BBall player at school play on the JV. People would not suggest that the top youth violinist in the state not play in the state youth’s symphony for further challenge than just do her HS’s orchestra. And this is the same for “gifted” learners. Gifted learners can mix with all types of learners but often thrive even more when mixed with other learners at their level. As I mentioned before, I think my kids enjoyed their time at our rural public high school and were recognized as being at the “top” in various areas. Being the “star” is nice but now I think they really enjoy the challenge of no longer being the “stars” at their respective colleges, but being in a galaxy of stars. It surely is more humbling.</p>
<hr>
<p>I’m reading a lot of stereotyping of kids who go to selective colleges as being grade grubbers and all they do is study study study and compete for grades, etc. I’m sure there are lotsa kids like that but surely not everyone who goes to a selective college fits that image at all. My kids like to do their best because they have high standards for themselves but they do not compete with their peers when it comes to academics. Both are also entering creative fields. One of my kids particularly thinks outside the box a LOT. Neither took the typical path in high school either. </p>
<p>Golferfirst wrote:
“Unfortunately, many of these high school “grade hounds” find themselves working so hard to keep up in an “elite” college that they have no time for anything else. For this type of $$$$ investment, my daughter wants more than just the classroom experience.”</p>
<p>One thing I can tell you about not only my own kids but others I know who are students who excel academically and are now at their colleges, what makes them stand apart is that the do not ONLY do well academically but they are very involved outside the classroom. My own kids, both before college and now IN college CHOSE to be immersed in many heavy duty activities that are not academics or related to the classroom. It means lotsa time devoted outside of academics and the classroom. They don’t have to; they want to! They do well at academics and put lots of time into doing well in school, but so much of their energy is also in outside pursuits for countless hours per week. I can’t speak for every colllege but imagine that most selective schools are like my kids’ schools in this way. My kids go to Brown and NYU/Tisch. Every friend of theirs whom I have met is scheduled up with so many interests and pursuits outside of the classroom. They still work hard at their studies but they time manage in such a way as to have activities that are not academic in nature, as well as social times with different groups of friends through their varied interest areas. If your D wants more than just classroom experience, I can assure you that at these schools or others of their ilk, she surely will be having hours upon hours of experiences totally unrelated to the classroom and I don’t just mean partying (some of that too, within reason). What is really cool, in my opinion, at these sorts of schools is that the students are not purely only into academics. I find that at some schools, though this is not a generalization but I see it more than at the more selective schools, the kids are into their classwork and do what they have to, but the rest of their time is free time. I have a niece who goes to Penn State. Does very well. She is not involved in anything outside of her classwork, except socializing. She recently got a job waitressing toward the end of her soph year. But I know a lot of kids like her who just do what is required at school (though get good grades) and the rest of the time is for partying, etc. They are not engaged in other endeavors. I have not met anyone of my D’s friends/peers at college whose lifestyle at college is like that. I’m sure it exists in various ways at all schools but I feel pretty certain that if your D does opt to go to a selective school, it won’t be all classwork. I suggest she visits some schools and talks to students and asks how they spend their time. Do an overnight visit even. </p>
<p>golferfirst,
Are those students premeds? First year at Harvard, they have to work very hard taking the required chem class, which is one of the hardest courses on campus, and also seems to be the class to weed out the future docs from the wannabees. </p>
<p>When it comes to H, the ECs there still are thriving, which one can tell by checking not only the numbers of the ECs, but actually their activities and web sites. Check the Crimson site to see what just one of the student publications does. Check the Loeb Theater to see how many student theater productions there are. The recent arts festival had hundreds of student music and dance performances.</p>
<p>The students whom I’ve encountered there on recent visits seem to have had plenty of time to do ECs and to do coursework. H even makes things easier than most colleges do by giving a couple of “reading” weeks at the end of each semester when classes aren’t held so students can catch up on the schoolwork they put off to pursue ECs.</p>
<p>" I have a niece who goes to Penn State. Does very well. She is not involved in anything outside of her classwork, except socializing. She recently got a job waitressing toward the end of her soph year. But I know a lot of kids like her who just do what is required at school (though get good grades) and the rest of the time is for partying, etc. They are not engaged in other endeavors. I have not met anyone of my D’s friends/peers at college whose lifestyle at college is like that. I’m sure it exists in various ways at all schools but I feel pretty certain that if your D does opt to go to a selective school, it won’t be all classwork. "</p>
<p>Let’s watch the stereotypes. I don’t know any - NOT ONE - student at Evergreen who just does his/her school work and is not involved - usually very heavily, in other endeavors. And often not at the school. Our town has 5 playhouses, and Evergreen students are heavily involved. A symphony orchestra and a chamber orchestra, and Evergreeners are heavily involved. Art studios and Art Walk, Procession of the Species, community environmental monitoring, you name it, and you find Evergreen students involved in it off campus.</p>
<p>Party time is minimal. The level of community involvement would put many of the “prestige” schools to shame.</p>
<p>golferfirst. Well my daughter is at Princeton. She sure doesn’t feel she was sold a bill of goods. Not to say some kids there might feel that way, but she doesn’t. While she is studying really hard - grades are good this semester!!! - she is also having the time of her life. According to her, Princeton is home. This is the best month of her life. She glad to be coming home to see us but doesn’t want to leave school. Funnily enough in the context of this thread, she writes for the newpaper. Goes to New York to see shows. Goes to student dance and theatrical productions. Plays with her friends. Some times she lets me into her Facebook profile to see the photos they have posted. Let us just say that their creativity in social engagement is not stunted…</p>
<p>And BTW, D had classmates as you describe - at the breaking point, miserable. In fact, one of her teachers told me that the recommendation she had written for D talked about the fact that D could study, do well, participate in apparently everything known to mankind except the rocket club, and still walk around loving life. Don’t get me wrong. She’s not perfect. Who is? But it just isn’t true that the only kids who go to these schools are burned-out wonks or elitist snobs or whatever. Many of them are enthusiastic kids who just happened to have very good brain engines and way more energy than the norm.</p>
<p>Mini, you suggested: “Let’s watch the stereotypes.”</p>
<p>Yes, that is what I wish to avoid. I had also written but you didn’t quote this:</p>
<p>" I find that at some schools, though this is not a generalization but I see it more than at the more selective schools, the kids are into their classwork and do what they have to, but the rest of their time is free time."</p>
<p>I DEFINITELY do not think it is all one way at less selective schools or all one way at more selective schools. I was saying “more than” but not exclusive of. </p>
<p>For instance, at our high school, the kids at the top of the class were ALL heavily involved in out of classroom pursuits. Most at the bottom of the class were not. Some colleges, but not ALL, that are not selective, have a bunch, but NOT ALL, of students who do the required work and also are heavily into social life like frats and parties. I know kids LIKE THIS. I am sure there are kids like this at so called “elite” schools too. I was simply saying to the dad whose D fears that if she goes to a very selective college, she may run into students who just study. She may but I think that a large majority at schools like that, or maybe I should just speak of the schools I know first hand, are very involved in pursuits outside the classroom and do not just study, though still take their schoolwork seriously. I was suggesting that if anything, she may find more kids who are very engaged beyond academics and social things, but in other areas, at more selective schools. But neither type of student is exclusive to one sort of school or another. The kids I know who are not the top students in high school, however, often go home after school and hang out. They have their schoolwork and their social life and may or may not have a part time job (which I do value) but are not involved in other things. But these are not ALL, but some “trends” I have observed locally and at some colleges, let alone the fact that I am a college counselor and the kids I know who seek out selective schools are kids who are engaged in various pursuits that are not just academic and the kids I advise who qualify for much less selective schools do a little outside of academics but not nearly as much (not counting the partying). My kids didn’t have a lot of “hanging out” time because they are engaged in activities they adore and would not think to just hang out because they will never give up their interest areas (which are not academic).</p>
<p>I don’t doubt for a minute about the kids at Evergreen. I believe Evergreen attracts a certain type of student and your observations of their involvement align with what I’d expect there. It isn’t what I see everywhere, however. </p>
<p>The title of this thread is: What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges?.</p>
<p>47 pages+ of lots back and forth by lots of people who write lots and lots of stuff. Are there any winners here in the Lifetime Advantages category?</p>
<p>eng_dude, I am unable to qualify for the Lifetime Advantage because I did not go to a “top college” - however, I had some fantastic teachers. ;)</p>
<p>From what I’ve heard, where you go to graduate school is mostly what matters, and to go to an undergrad where you yourself will do the best, not necessarily the “best” school for its name or status.</p>
<p>Alumother, your D’s experience parallels my son’s. He is so happy at Dartmouth that he almost never wants to come home and would stay over breaks if he was organized enough to make the arrangements. He does study hard, but I believe he socializes WAY more than in high school. He attended a rigorous prep school, and most students who come back to visit the HS say that college is easier than their HS. I also know that he does engage in intellectual conversations – but still takes time out for water balloon fights!</p>
Hanna, these are the numbers for student loans taken out by the student at the college. Not student loans from private sources, and not parent loans from any source. The conversation we were having was about total family debt incurred whether by home equity, loans against insurance, loans from 401(k) , whatever. All college related debt. Try again. I would wager that the % of borrowing families is very high indeed. I doubt if that many are simply writing a check every year. Do you think so?</p>
<p>and like NSM has shown in her posts, many folks would have to take out major loans for their kids to go to the elites (if that was their choice) and those folks aren’t all living lavish lifestyles. At least , I wouldn’t consider NSM’s lifestyle ,as she has described it, lavish (nor is mine).</p>
<p>eng_dude is right. We’ve covered the advantages of the elite school experience pretty well in terms of what goes on during those four years, but the LONGTERM aspect hasn’t been touched on quite as much.</p>
<p>However, if those four years at college are as amazing as Ivy grads say they are, then there are likely some formative and life-changing influences which surpass those of the standard college experience. Beyond that impact, is it necessary that there be a lifetime benefit to justify the expenditure?</p>
I would wager that the % of borrowing families is very high indeed. I doubt if that many are simply writing a check every year. Do you think so?</p>