What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

Parents Forum
781

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<p>SB, you know I got love for you but I definitely do not agree with you on this one.</p>

<p>I work in HR (adult education and workplace learning) at a major corporation and you should see the number of middle and senior managers who getting graduate degrees from UoP (as my company pays for UOP in their tuition remission plan) addition to having classmates at other well known companies who are also taking courses. Remember on-line college is now a big business because of them.</p>

<p>I once thought that way (that it was a fluff degree) until I spoke to people actually taking courses there and read some of their papers and projects, so I would not be so quick to write them off. I learned from this one, don’t knock it until you’ve tried it.</p>

<p>From what I have learned about their program, especially their graudate programs in business, it is about being able to apply the the thoretical principles taught in class to your organization. A student really has to know their company’s organizational structure and their grad business program is not for the faint at heart. They run on a 6 week cycle, students reading a couple of humdred pages a week and each week turning in group projects,(papers & presentations ) about 20 pages and individual papers (15-20 pages) each week. From what I have seen, I don’t think many people at more “elite” schools could keep up with the pace.</p>

<p>Just spoke to an employee I know who completed a Masters there and told me he took the following courses.</p>

<p>ORGANIZATIONAL LEADERSHIP AND CHANGE MANAGEMENT<br>
LEGAL ISSUES IN THE WORKPLACE<br>
HUMAN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT
MANAGERIAL COMMUNICATION
ORGANIZATIONAL ETHICS<br>
HUMAN RELATIONS AND ORGANIZATIONAL BEHAVIOR
MARKETING AND STAKEHOLDER RELATIONS
EMPLOYEE MOTIVATION AND COMPENSATION<br>
PROJECT MANAGEMENT IN THE BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT INFORMATION MANAGEMENT IN BUSINESS<br>
SYSTEMS THINKING AND PERFORMANCE MEASUREMENT (we recently did a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt Project and the UoP person was the one to break down and explain about lean sigma concept to some of his "better educated’ peers and ended up leading the project).
CONFLICT MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS<br>
STRATEGY FORMULATION AND IMPLEMENTATION
ORGANIZATIONAL RESEARCH AND PROCESS CONSULTATION </p>

<p>Is it HBS or Stern, nope, but most of these people have already proved themselves where it counts in the workplace and at this stage of their career it is gravy.</p>

782

<p>what do you think the scenerio might be if a kid from an IVY or CC invents a gizmo that can morph e-bullets in to real ones?</p>

783

<p>Simba - In that scenario I believe everyone would be much more careful how they shoot.</p>

784

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<p>Of course it matters. And it isn’t elitist. It’s all a matter of what economists call sorting costs. To use econ-speak, labor markets are riven with imperfect information. Every worker is going to want to claim to a prospective employer that they are going to be productive and useful. That includes the ones who are not productive and not useful. </p>

<p>So sure, I agree that there are students at no-name schools who are brilliant. But the problem is that you have to figure out who they are, and SORT them from the ones that those schools who are not brilliant. You can try to sort them by things like GPA, but that just encourages people to take easy classes where they can load up on a bunch of easy A’s for doing nothing. However, at the top schools, the students have been largely “presorted”, mostly through a tough admissions process but also sometimes through a highly rigorous curriculum (i.e. the curriculums at MIT or Caltech). In other words, I as an employer can save on sorting costs by choosing from a presorted batch.</p>

<p>This actually gets down to a related topic, that in which it is not enough just to be brilliant or to have brilliant ideas. You also have to convince others that your ideas are brilliant. In other words, you have to be able to market yourself. There is little to be gained in being brilliant if nobody knows about it or nobody thinks you’re brilliant. </p>

<p>As a case in point, consider Starbucks. I know that if I want to get high-quality coffee, I can go to Starbucks. That’s because Starbucks has spent decades and millions of dollars in developing a strong brand name that is synonymous with high quality coffee. Now, there may be some no-name coffee shop nearby that actually serves better coffee than Starbucks does. The problem is, how would I, as an individual customer, know that? What if I go into this shop and order coffee, and it turns out that it’s terrible? I just wasted my money and my time. It’s simply less risky for me to just keep going to Starbucks until such time as that other coffee shop is able to develop a brand-name and reputation that rivals Starbucks. So it’s not a matter of ‘elitism’ on my part, it’s actually a matter of risk aversion.</p>

<p>The fact is, we are all affected by some degree by brand names and marketing. You may try out a restaurant one night because you’ve heard that it’s good, either from your friends, or from a guide like Zagat’s, or whatever. That’s an example of marketing. Companies spend billions of dollars maintaining and enhancing their brand name and marketing. They wouldn’t do it if it didn’t have value.</p>

785

<p>I stand corrected. :)</p>

<p>At my house UoP is a little bit of a fmaily joke because once when we were bugging my son (he was about 13 at the time) about doing better in school his reply was, “Don’t worry I 'm sure I can always go to the University of Phoenix Online.”</p>

786

<p>dmd77–the era of Ivy dominance in big business is pretty much over.
Now if you want to come back and say per capita there are still more–well Ok but the fact is they do not come anywhere near dominating bg business. </p>

<p>"New York Times Finds
Wisconsin Grads in the Corner Office
November 28, 2005 </p>

<p>A recent article in The New York Times found fewer CEOs with Ivy League degrees than in the past.</p>

<p>According to the story, in 1980 about 23 percent of chief executives had attended an Ivy League college. Today, among CEOs in the Standard & Poor’s 500, that share has fallen to 10 percent. The article cited research by Spencer Stuart, an executive search firm, that the University of Wisconsin is tied with Harvard as the most common alma mater for top executives.</p>

<p>The reason for the switch, according to executives interviewed in the article, is an increasing need for a diverse leadership with skills in communication, real-world smarts and a common touch.</p>

<p>David R. Whitwam, Whirlpool’s former chief who earned his undergraduate degree in economics from UW-Madison, was one of the executives quoted in the story. “I think of the people at Whirlpool who failed over the years, and it rarely had to do with their technical skills,” he said. “It’s usually their leadership capabilities.” </p>

<p>Similar comments came from Robert A. Eckert, chief executive of Mattel and an emeritus member of the Dean’s Advisory Board of the UW-Madison School of Business: “When you look at today’s C.E.O., he or she has to be very comfortable talking about the business with folks on the factory floor or customers who are increasingly diverse.”</p>

<p>Thomas J. Neff, chairman of U.S. operations for Spencer Stuart, said he couldn’t remember the last time a client doing an executive search asked for graduates of a particular college. According to Neff, when it comes to senior-level appointments, it’s “What have you done for me lately?”</p>

787

<p>sakky: some one did bring out ‘sorting’ thing hundreds of posts ago. There were three or four ‘sorts’. First after graduatio, then after 5 years of employment so on …</p>

788

<p>sakky, exactly.</p>

789

<p>barrons, you’d probably really like that book I mentioned a few posts back.</p>

790

<p>OK - so from this board…
The average IQ at Harvard > The average IQ at State U
But…
Individual Harvard student IQ may be > or < or = Individual State U student IQ
What choice should a “smart” student make for college?
Some may want to be with a group of high acheiving, high IQ students. Others prefer diversity or the ability to stand out in a crowd. Some want small classes. Other want big environments with research opportunities. Each school has good teachers and bad teachers. It’s up to the student - an Ivy might be a great choice for one - a State U for another. It’s all OK.<br>
On the original question… I would have to go with what the research says. Again, it’s the student, not the college.<br>
I’m done with this thread!</p>

791

<p>Me too. My stomach can’t take it.</p>

792

<p>"But, then again, people choose colleges for a variety of reasons - not all who choose Princeton do so for academic reasons. "</p>

<p>This is true, but only in the minority of students there. Most are there for the academics.</p>

<p>Here’s a fact: only a small percentage of ALL high school students qualify for admission to Princeton. Out of those who are qualified, an even smaller percentage get in. Yes, those excellent students must go elsewhere - whether to another Ivy or a top LAC or the school that offered them the best scholarship. But the fact remains: very few h.s. students are academically qualified to go to Princeton, or any other Ivy or top ranked school. A much greater number qualify to attend State U.</p>

<p>So . . . some admitted students may choose not to attend an Ivy, but the vast majority of students don’t have the academic credentials to qualify in the first place. To argue that some top students decide not to go to the Ivies is putting undue emphasis on a situation that is statistically insignificant. As Alummother states, ON AVERAGE an Ivy/top college student is going to be more academically ambitious.</p>

793

<p>While LACs and Ivies do have the warm and fuzzy approach to making sure that students graduate, I knew someone who failed out of Dartmouth and heard of a more recent situation where a kid failed out of Princeton. (His father was on the faculty - ouch!) The difference is that these schools will let students return years later. I just learned of someone who left an Ivy part way through his graduate studies and was allowed to return 25 years later to pick up exactly where he left off, no questions or additional paperwork required.</p>

794

<p>I don’t know about the lifetime advantages of attending certain schools, but there are definite considerations to being surrounded by stars. The only surprising name of the list below is Quachita Baptist College–I’d never heard of it before. There is also only one state university on the list–a terrific one, UMich. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-05-17-hs-allstars-first-team_x.htm[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-05-17-hs-allstars-first-team_x.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

795

<p>Whew, just read pages of posts, not sure why even. But the air is hot and there are arrows flinging past. </p>

<p>A couple disparate thoughts…</p>

<p>Packer, not sure I agree with your reasoning to not hire any more Ivy graduates because you have had three before who were not so great. I don’t know how you can lump all Ivy grads together like that. I don’t know how you can even assume it was their education, rather than their personalities or work ethic or some other factor that made them the kind of employees that they were. Even if they had all come from one college, I can’t imagine never hiring from that college again but there are 8 Ivy league schools and you had three employees who at most could only have represented three schools. Surely they didn’t represent what all students graduating from those schools would be like. I wouldn’t want some college not to take my child because three graduates from her HS were not so hot. I wouldn’t want an employer to say he did not want to hire any more minorities because he had had three minority employees who couldn’t cut it. I would hope each candidate was viewed as an individual and not just where he came from. </p>

<p>GFG, some pages ago, you wrote a post I can relate to…and that is sometimes, I really go out of my way to not admit my graduate school’s name (Harvard) because it is almost like I have to apologize for going. </p>

<p>SBMom, in a recent post you asked something that I also asked pages ago but nobody responded to…about why do we even have Honors Colleges? Why Honors/AP classes in high school? If none of this matters, why have any selectivity to get into college and not just make every college open to whoever wants to attend? If high achieving students fit right in with any level of learner, why have tracking in high school? Why does a state U need an Honors College? If we are to argue against the notion of top academic students going off to very selective colleges when they should be mixing with all levels of learners, then why are the high schools tracking their classes and why does the state flagships have a need for Honors Colleges, etc.? I think the reason for these options is because each learner has different needs and so a good match up between learner and learning environment makes sense. </p>

<p>I also think lotsa people are making assumptions that anyone who attends or has a child who attends a highly selective college thinks the school is superior. I, nor my own kids, feel this way whatsoever. Their colleges were chosen as a good match for what they wanted but they think highly of many other colleges. Today, I was with my 17 year old who just got home from college and telling her of a student she knows who I saw post on CC and how he boasted that his intended college program for next year is the “best” one. It is a concept that she, nor I, can relate to. She, and I, would be the first to admit that we don’t think my kid’s college is the best one. It is a well regarded one but not the best one. As she put it, “I chose it because it was the best one for me, not that it doesn’t have any faults. I am so happy I picked it now that one year is over.” To me, that is ALL that it is about. </p>

<p>I also agree with whomever posted that education is for education’s sake. Nobody said their school would be a ticket to something else. Being educated is worthy in itself. As well, in the work world, it often helps to have an education, any education. I agree with what Marite posted. I don’t agree with whomever was saying you don’t need to go to college at all, etc. You don’t have to go to college, it’s true. But an educated mind never goes out of style and as far as opportunities in life, education can open doors to them. </p>

<p>Hope things can cool down!</p>

796

<p>Marite, </p>

<p>Thanks for linking to the USA Today winners. Those students appear to be incredible achievers, all in more than one area. Heavy on science and math but all are accomplished in several capacities. I’m in awe of their talents and achievements. Students like them can end up at any college. However, I think more of them end up at very selective colleges, so there is a higher concentration of them there. This kind of student is very different than a student who goes to school, hangs out after school and just does whatever is required, nothing more. While there are thousands of students who fall between that continuim, I can see why students like those winners wish to be in learning environments that will continue to challenge them as their learning needs, personalities and motivations are not like all students. That is why there are different colleges for all sorts of students. </p>

<p>By the way, I recently heard of Ouachita Baptist because a poster on the MT forum has a child transferring there.</p>

797

<p>Motheroftwo, allowing a student to resume a graduate degree program 25 years later is highly unusual. Where did he/she go? The state of the scholarship in any discipline changes too much over that period of time to allow a graduate faculty to accept prior coursework, qualifying and/or candidacy examination results after a quarter century. I suspect the story they told you was highly embellished.</p>

798

<p>It was not highly embellished. It was for a Princeton PhD. He definitely graduated from Princeton because he was at an alumni dinner. He told his story to us because he was amazed that any university, particularly a highly regarded one, would be so generous to a student who had left so long ago.</p>

799

<p>barrons, I did not say “Ivies”, I said elite colleges; I would include Stanford, MIT, CalTech, Swarthmore, Williams, etc. in this list. If Harvard (with a feshman class of 1650) and Wisconsin (with a freshman class of 23000) have an equal representation in business, I would say that more than proves my point, not disproves it.</p>

<p>The percentage may be decreasing, but it is still disproportionate.</p>

800

<p>Actually the freshmen class at UW is 5500 or so. And the decline is real no matter how you want to slice it. Most major news outlets including the NYT and Businessweek considered the fact of equal success pretty newsworthy. The hand-picked super-elite vs a small state’s public university. Most would expect a different outcome. That’s why it was newsworthy.</p>

<p>BTW other top CEO ug schools were Yale, Stanford, Princeton, and Texas.</p>

<p><a href=“http://content.spencerstuart.com/sswebsite/pdf/lib/2005_CEO_Study_JS.pdf#nameddest=edu[/url]”>http://content.spencerstuart.com/sswebsite/pdf/lib/2005_CEO_Study_JS.pdf#nameddest=edu&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;