What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

Parents Forum
821

<p>Viewpoint, you’re right, why bother with any college? In fact, why work hard at high school? Dropping out is the way to go!</p>

<p>Oh, and yes, I agree that going to a top college will get you nowhere. In fact, you’ll be much worse off in life if you go to one! :eek:</p>

<p>PS…who ever said that going to a top college would pay off in terms of income over going to a less selective college? I surely don’t think that. I don’t even think the choice of college should have anything to do with which college will get you which income! Go to college for the sake of the experience and educating the mind. It has an effect on your life in and of itself. And yes, going to college and getting a degree is often beneficial in gaining employment in many fields (some jobs one cannot do with out a college degree). Which college you go to doesn’t matter in this regard. It only matters that you pick a college you’d be happy at and that best fits the preferences one has in a college.</p>

822

<p>I would like to see a new thred on why hard work doesn’t pay off in the U.S.</p>

<p>I hope that my daughter didn’t attend an expensive college because she thought all her hard work ( a 45 page thesis! with tables and charts!), was going to be rewarded with a job that pays as much as her fathers blue collar position that he has worked a lifetime to acheive ( he makes $7,000 more this year, than he did 15 years ago- but incidentally a job he is very good at and enjoys), or a guarenteed happy life.</p>

<p>I would hope that some of the reasons might have been that it was the best fit for her of the schools we saw- it was a place that challenged her, that encouraged her to work hard and grow- it wasn’t a place where she would come out, basically the same person that went in 4 years previous.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t push for a student to attend a school too expensive for their family- I have seen that there are always alternatives- they may take a great deal of looking for- and some bursting of balloons may occur- but education IMO is one of the most enriching things you can add to your life , but if you don’t think it is valuable- then it wouldn’t be something you would be believeable in encouraging others to pursue.</p>

823

<p>See? We’re all starting to come to terms with this. Let’s all hold hands and sing a non faith-based de-caf cumbaya, and we’ll get the rest of the gang to join in.</p>

824

<p>well that would be better than the music they were playing at the gym tonight- last time I leave my Ipod at home ;)</p>

825

<p>The biggest advantage for me is the life long friendships with exceptional people who have done amazing things with their lives.</p>

826

<p>I think one of the hardest things to have is a parent who is a blue collar worker who makes more than the average college graduate makes in his/her job.</p>

<p>It’s very hard to defend or give reason to attend a top college, when they are the perfect example of the exception to the rule(go to college, get a good job)</p>

<p>I’m pretty sure more blue collar job workers enjoy their jobs more than white collar job workers do.</p>

827

<p>oh dear… 56 pages (unread by me). Dare I weigh in? Is the topic still, What are the Lifteme Advantages of Attending Top Colleges?</p>

<p>The major lifetime advantage is attending the reunions for that Top College, except my undergrad university (Michigan) is so big they don’t even have reunions!</p>

828

<p>Once upon a time, when I was a freshman in high school, there was this bizarre idea propagated by our forebears that a “good college” is a school which has an academic and social environment that matches who you are. After all, your undergraduate years aren’t really about getting a job. The most popular major at Yale is history, but most of those students do not pursue that field as a vocation.
Anyway, somehow, that idea began to vanish. Tuitions rose. Then people started to reason “if I’m going to shell out big bucks for junior’s education, I better get good value for my money”. More people applied to “top schools”. So it became increasingly unlikely that many decent students would be accepted at the “good colleges”. Being valedictorian and captain of two varsity sports, and acing all of your tests eventually came to mean you were just like all the other applicants, and so could not be certain of admission at the very top schools.
So 44 people in my graduating class were admitted to Harvard. Dozens of others went to the other Ivies and highly selective schools. Most of the rest went to other small-liberal arts colleges. Many others complained that they would have been valedictorian at the public high school in their hometown. Only the class president and I and a couple of others decided to go to large state schools. I went there because they have the best actuarial math program in the country and were willing to pay for my education, unlike the other “better schools” to which I was admitted, which lacked one or the other factor. I didn’t end up pursuing that field, but going to that school hardly hampered the course my life has taken. I don’t know if it definitely made it better than if I had gone elsewhere; I’ll never know that. But I like to think that my path has been independent of the school I went to.
Often, parents of my students ask what kinds of activities the kids should sign up for to “look good on a college application.” I do not think it is naive to tell them that the adolescent should do something that they like, or explore a new interest. After all, you do well in something because you have a passion for it, not because it is an inauthentic pursuit that you’ve calculated to accomplish some other end, right? You don’t go to med school because you “have to” in order to become a doctor, but because you realize that there is much to know, and you want to know it, to be a good doctor. The same goes for law school or other graduate education.
There are exceptions, of course. If you want to land a job working for a big venture capital firm, an 800 on the GMAT and an MBA from Stern is not going to do it. You need to get that MBA from Harvard or Stanford, and even then, your chances of landing a position right away are slim.
But employers are learning that a degree from a certain college (or having a degree at all) doesn’t guarantee the bottom line, which is performance. I have fired several supposedly “smart” people from “good colleges” because they were utterly useless at their entry-level jobs. In some cases, unfortunately, parents and teachers started telling these people from an early age that they were the smartest folks in the room, and these poor deluded souls finally came to believe this, and hence decided that there was nothing left for them to learn from others. Others with one or more degrees from various “top schools” have been truly amazing. The school doesn’t determine one’s job success, or success in any aspect of life, in fact.
I constantly reinforce to my beleaguered students that being admitted to a school or not simply reflects a certain statistical reality, and is a reflection on the school, not the applicant. If I know that the crew jock in my dorm is getting into Yale, why not pass him my Yale application? I sure don’t want to go to college so close to home, anyway. And if a school is looking for a certain population which is engineered to create the liberal arts ideal, plus the occasional candidate which the admissions committee predicts will add a great deal to the the community, well that’s their prerogative.
My sister went to Skidmore. I used to think, “yeah, that’s a pretty good second-tier school”. Sure, they have their quotient of Nobel prizewinners. But when I visited her up there, I discovered that their professors are really good teachers, the students never want to leave and are really cohesive in a way that you don’t see anywhere else, and so forth. So, don’t judge colleges by reputation or rankings–visit, and talk to people that go there.
Sorry for the long post.</p>

829

<p>EK:</p>

<p>It’s disingenuous to claim that your D did not attend a highly selective or expensive college when Reed admits on its own website that it IS expensive then goes on to talk about financial aid. It is not as expensive as Harvard but it’s not as inexpensive as UW or UMass. Its’s about $35k, right?</p>

<p>It’s not $35k to you and your D, but then Harvard is not $44k for everyone. And as has been said many times on CC, sometimes it is actually cheaper to attend HYPS than to attend your own state school.</p>

830

<p>curmudge-a microcosm of editing mischief has been ‘highlighted’. They sure steal your punch when they remove your punchlines,…</p>

831

<p>This is how I see college selection.</p>

<p>An analogy ahead:</p>

<p>Living in your perfect neighborhood or environment—Montana, NYC, Topeka or Miami—will not by any means, in and of itself, make you a richer or more important person, but people passionately elect to live in one or the other of these places (maybe not Topeka) for very important life-affirming reasons. </p>

<p>Perhaps some do it to become rich as and end-game; but I would guess it has more to do with what they think of themselves and what they imagine themselves to become in this environment–their imagined-life. We can reasonably dispute their vision but not the personal choice that emerges from it. </p>

<p>Each choice represents specific joys and hardships, simultaneously—financial, familial etc.—but even knowing that, it is more often than not still worth a shot.</p>

<p>The Same applies to Yale, Duke, Dartmouth, Stanford or Williams…and the University of Kansas (ok, maybe not U of K).</p>

832

<p>Marite, your post reinforcing the much repeated fact that it can be cheaper to attend HYPS than a state school hit home with me today. Information about where my d’s friends will be attending college has been slow, kinda like those fliers the school used to send home and which got buried in the bottom of her backpack for weeks before she decided to show them to me.</p>

<p>Anyway . . . all the kids she knows who needed FA and who got into Ivies can go to those schools because of their FA packages. Yesterday I learned of one friend who got into Wheaton but who can’t go because they offered her too little money. She must go to the state university on full scholarship. and she is upset. The State U. is not the kind of campus, environment, and community that this girl thought was a good fit for her, but off to it she will go. She isn’t the first we know who has chosen the cheaper option, but she is the first who is truly upset rather than resigned.</p>

<p>I’d say that HYPS are not elite schools anymore in terms of social class since they offer great FA packages. It is the schools below them, the top 25 or so, that are limiting their student bodies because of their ability to pay. Sure, these colleges give FA aid and even occasionally some merit aid, but such aid is selective and often not enough. In a world where Skidmore costs only $500 less a year in tuition than Princeton, why on earth would someone who got into both pass up a Princeton education? (Don’t answer that; I know - “fit.”) Now add in Princeton’s FA generosity, and it could be much, much cheaper to attend. Sure, Skidmore is a good school, but for $500 more, a mere sneeze compared to the total cost, you can get much more for your money. </p>

<p>It didn’t used to be like this. Once upon a time, HYPS was for the rich because the tuition was much higher than elsewhere. Now some LACs like Reed actually cost more to attend than HYPS. You can even go as low as third tier privates and still pay the “sticker cost” of an Ivy. Only the public schools seem to have lower tuition rates. Each of the HYPS schools has huge endowments which allow for higher quality facilities and resources as well as more generous need-based FA.</p>

833

<p>Curmudgeon’s post on the contemplated life is brilliant. I vote we accept it as the best summary of this debate, and end this thread.</p>

834

<p>You have my vote.</p>

835

<p>Liek wrote:
"I think one of the hardest things to have is a parent who is a blue collar worker who makes more than the average college graduate makes in his/her job.</p>

<p>It’s very hard to defend or give reason to attend a top college, when they are the perfect example of the exception to the rule(go to college, get a good job)</p>

<p>I’m pretty sure more blue collar job workers enjoy their jobs more than white collar job workers do."</p>

<p>Liek,
The choice to attend college is not just to make more money than a person who did not attend college. First, going to college is about becoming educated. Some folks value that in and of itself even if one were to never get a job or chooses to become a housewife, etc. An education plays a part in molding who you are as a person, unrelated to work/career. </p>

<p>Second, a college education is not a guarantee of a job, let alone a better paying job than a non educated person. Some fields that require an education are low paying. My field, education, is such a field for the most part. I can think of some jobs that don’t require a college education that pay more than I can make as a teacher. Anyway, a college education is a necessity for many many fields. Without a college education, one cannot enter certain careers or jobs. Those are jobs one would be closed out of without going to college. College opens the door to opportunities that one cannot have without a degree. Further, many of the higher paying jobs in our society (though not ALL of them) do require an education. There are certainly some high paying jobs that do not require an education but for the most part, a majority do. </p>

<p>Marite, I agree with you that many people do not realize that SOMETIMES the more costly privates or selective schools can turn out to be cheaper than some schools with a lower price tag (not counting state school usually) becauses the schools have full need based FA and one should not rule out applying to the more expensive school if applying for need based aid because it may not turn out to cost more in the end.</p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew, your post caught my eye because one of my D’s best friends in HS had applied ED to Wheaton (I assume you also were talking of Wheaton in MA, as I am) and the FA package was too low and she had to back out (in Dec.). Instead, she is attending UNH which is a fine school but she was one of the better students in our HS and I truly believe that she could have attended a more selective school that fit better. She obviously was looking to go to a place like Wheaton as a first choice. Her older sister, a former val, went to Bates.</p>

<p>Fountainsiren, I liked your analogy. I think it could be added that some live in a certain town or area because they were born and raised in that area and so they remain out of default or just have never left the area. Same with many who go instate to colleges.</p>

<p>Kumbaya,
Susan</p>

836

<p>I find Curmudgeon’s post absurd. </p>

<p>We should go to a top college because a larger part of the student body at those schools contemplate life. </p>

<p>OK. Let’s form a line for those who are able to contemplate life. Intelligent people step right in. Strong academic people step right in. Those with the right pedigrees, step right in. Those with the big bucks, step right in. Hey, the lacrosse players and crew members, step right in.</p>

<p>Hey you, with the 3.5 gpa and 1200 SAT scores…not so fast. Hey you, with the family income of 40,000, sorry the line is filled up. We already filled our quota of people like you. Hey, people with SAT scores of less than 2100 or gpas less than 3.0, I’m sorry, you are too stupid to consider contemplating life. You’re a recent immigrant. Go grab a shovel. Take a hike.</p>

837

<p>Dstark, I would have to agree that “contemplating life” is not relegated to just top colleges. It makes a better rationale for going to college itself, but not so much how “top” the college is.</p>

838

<p>Susan,</p>

<p>great!-addition to my little analogy! Thanks. Without it, the comparison barely stood its ground.</p>

<p>I think this debate is, as a rule, too ideological. </p>

<p>There is a poetry to this that is too often overlooked; it is not so cut and dried as many would like to imply…there is a love for life and a wish to fulfill it that drives many of us forward into different ways, lives and styles.</p>

<p>It needs to be acknowledged for the discussion to be complete.</p>

839

<p>Can we all just agree that kids and their parents want the best college for that individual? While we are doing that, can we agree that different colleges offer different kinds of educations? After all, “fit” means nothing if you can’t differentiate among the choices.</p>

840

<p>Along these lines, I am left speechless at the person suggesting Dartmouth has a more intelligent or gifted cohort than Chicago --or was that not the meaning of that comment? This board is in danger of collapsing under the weight of all this unintended (or is it conscious, but I don’t think so) elitism. We all want our kids to go to the best school possible, but assuming that translates to the smartest or best person writ large is in error and also dangerous. It is ridiculous to think that students at a higher ranked school spend more time contemplating life. It could be they spend less time --because it could be the LESS EC’d-out student who spends more time reading who thinks more. In some sense the race to get into these top schools is like an American Idol competition --and I need point no further than Kaayva Vishwanathon for you to see what I mean. To confuse this kind of gaming with intellectual talent or the ability to ponder life is a mistake.</p>

<p>To those who want to embrace this as the gospel and end the discussion --well, I guess that says it all for you. To me it is not …not a democratic idea. I contemplated life night and day for the full four years with some extremely intelligent friends at the State U.</p>