What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

Parents Forum
841

<p>EK:</p>

<p>*It’s disingenuous to claim that your D did not attend a highly selective or expensive college when Reed admits on its own website that it IS expensive then goes on to talk about financial aid. It is not as expensive as Harvard but it’s not as inexpensive as UW or UMass. Its’s about $35k, right?<a href=“yes%20it%20is%20about%2035K-%20with%20room%20&%20board%20it%20is%2043K”>/i</a></p>

<p>where the heck did I say it WASNT expensive?</p>

<p>I think people need to actually read what is written rather than jumping the gun- is what I wrote so confusing?</p>

842

<p>I am reposting so I can see what was so confusing
I would like to see a new thred on why hard work doesn’t pay off in the U.S.- what I was responding to.</p>

<p>I hope that my daughter didn’t attend an expensive college because she thought all her hard work ( a 45 page thesis! with tables and charts!), was going to be rewarded with a job that pays as much as her fathers blue collar position that he has worked a lifetime to acheive ( he makes $7,000 more this year, than he did 15 years ago- but incidentally a job he is very good at and enjoys), or a guarenteed happy life. this reads to me that she DID attend an expensive college- but that I hope her reasons weren’t driven by the thought she was gonna have a job handed to her.</p>

<p>I would hope that some of the reasons might have been that it was the best fit for her of the schools we saw- it was a place that challenged her, that encouraged her to work hard and grow- it wasn’t a place where she would come out, basically the same person that went in 4 years previous. THESE are the reasons that I think are better</p>

<p>I wouldn’t push for a student to attend a school too expensive for their family- I have seen that there are always alternatives- they may take a great deal of looking for- and some bursting of balloons may occur- but education IMO is one of the most enriching things you can add to your life , but if you don’t think it is valuable- then it wouldn’t be something you would be believeable in encouraging others to pursue.
Again- REED met 100% of our EFC- it wasn’t too expensive for us- it was about the same as if she had attended instate public college-
but if she hadn’t received aid- she had choices that were affordable- as many students do</p>

843

<p>In fairness to curmudgeon, he says this, "Does a well-contemplated life only come from attendance at a top school? No, that’s ridiculous. "</p>

844

<p>Since so many here pointed to Cur’s post as being an excellent summary of issues discussed here, I would like to point to cloverdale7’s post #840, which in my view is an excellent summation of thoughts that have been running through my head for the last day or two. I would especially like to point to: “This board is in danger of collapsing under the weight of all this unintended (or is it conscious, but I don’t think so) elitism.” I also like the thought of the “democratic idea.”</p>

845

<p>Another, however asymmetrical, take on education:</p>

<p>Real education must ultimately be limited to men who insist on knowing, the rest is mere sheep—herding. </p>

<p>—Ezra Pound</p>

<p>As opposed to the “democratic” idea of education.;)</p>

846

<p>Another strong vote for cloverdale’s post #840 (and I said I was done with this thread…but couldn’t resist). Guess we have a split here…</p>

847

<p>New Jersey people, they will surprise you,
Cause they’re not expected to do too much.</p>

<p>They will try harder, they may go further,
They never think that they are good enough.</p>

<p>John Gorka–I’m from New Jersey</p>

848

<p>EK:</p>

<p>I do apologize. I misread your post! Mea maxima culpa.
But your story illustrates even better my point that some top colleges (and I certainly count Reed in their numbers-USN&WR be d—ed) can be more affordable than state Us.</p>

849

<p>Cloverdale, I think you misunderstood my post. I think many of us would agree that the USNWR rankings are not all that meaningful, yet we do use them in some sense to determine value. I just meant that there was no reason for my son to choose Chicago over Dartmouth, when the financial aid was less, travel costs were more, and Dartmouth was ranked higher. Obviously, Chicago is an excellent school, with attributes that some people would prefer over a Dartmouth or Brown. Chicago was not the best example, but it was what came to mind. I’m sorry you chose to interpret my comments the way you did, especially since most of my remarks state that he could have done well at any number of schools.</p>

850

<p>

Actually, the person wrote that her son chose Dartmouth because it was “higher ranked”. I assume by “rank” the poster was referring to US News, which reports that Dartmouth has a peer-assessment rating of 4.4, whereas Chicago has a higher peer-assessment rating of 4.6 – meaning that college deans believe Chicago to be the better school academically. But of course the overall ranking is Dartmouth 9, Chicago 15. </p>

<p>That leaves the only interpretation of that post to mean that the real goal is prestige: pick the most prestigious college that the student is comfortable attending. The poster cited “geography” as the reason for turning down a college ranked even higher than Dartmouth - so I gather that the argument is that the student should choose the college with the highest number in the news magazine, provided that one does not have to travel too far to get to it. Most well-informed people know that (1) Chicago is brought down in the rankings because of factors like a weaker endowment and higher admissions rate, and (2) the US News methodology is deliberately jury-rigged to ensure that Ivies will come out on top, so as to continue to sell more magazines. </p>

<p>But that’s the whole game: there are actually people in this world willing to pay more money because of where the college comes out in the rankings – so they will pay more for Dartmouth even though Chicago has a stronger reputation academically, and offers a significantly better faculty/student ratio (4/1 at Chicago vs. 9/1 at Dartmouth) and ranks better for “faculty resources” (Chicago: 11, vs Dartmouth: 19).</p>

<p>In fairness, though, I really think it comes down to Ivy-worship - that is, I don’t think the real question is US News rank so much as the fact that Dartmouth is Ivy League, Chicago isn’t. </p>

<p>And of course the “prestige” argument comes down to the claim that the person will make better connections and be better positioned for employment… and I assume that those claims have already been debated to death in this thread.</p>

851

<p>Wasn’t Ezra Pound a fascist?</p>

852

<p>“I contemplated life night and day for the full four years with some extremely intelligent friends at the State U.”</p>

<p>Who gave YOU permission? ;)</p>

<p>"I’d say that HYPS are not elite schools anymore in terms of social class since they offer great FA packages. "</p>

<p>The available evidence regarding low-income students says otherwise. The schools are less economically diverse on the bottom end that they were 25 years ago, well BEFORE they offered the great FA packages. Think of the FA packages as discount from the list price, and you quickly come to the conclusion that there has been little change there, but the schools are, for the families struggling with income at home, perhaps even less affordable. More to the point, HYPS have fewer (percentagewise) of such students attending. They simply aren’t being offered admission.</p>

<p>I do think there are changes, however, in the “elite” status of the 50%+ students who receive no need-based aid - but I can’t prove it. I suspect there is a lot more “new money” than there used to be (but I can’t prove it.) I suspect that the percentage of hereditary families has declined at least at some of the schools (but I can’t prove it.) Some of the prestige schools now say they are playing down the legacy advantage (this, at the first time in their history that larger numbers of minorities and women could actually take advantage of it.) The amount of money in donations required to buy a place as a developmental admit has likely increased. At the same time, however, I’d be willing to bet that the median income of those receiving no need-based aid has increased very substantially, far greater than the rate of inflation, or even increases in college tuition.</p>

<p>In other words, in terms of economic class, at least some of these schools are class-based and bifurcated in ways which are more marked than in previous generations. </p>

<p>One example that immediately comes to mind is Amherst, because we have access to good data. </p>

<p>56% of the student body receives no need-based aid whatsoever, which means a minimum income of $160k, and probably a median approaching $300k.</p>

<p>16% are on Pell Grants, meaning incomes below $40k.</p>

<p>Leaving 28% between $40k and a $160k. Half of the need-based recipients have incomes of $90k and above.</p>

<p>So, the breakdown of the student body looks something like (it is inexact, but pretty close):</p>

<p>16% - Below $40k
14% - $40k - $90k
14% - $90k - $160k
28% - $160k - $300k (or a little less)
28% - $300k +</p>

<p>Looks pretty elite to me - and this is a school that prides itself (and I think they should take some credit) in striving to admit low-income students.</p>

853

<p>

</p>

<p>Sure. And Ghandi slept next to girls in order to further diminish his libido.</p>

<p>That doesn’t make the wisdom of their finer thinking any less profound.</p>

854

<p>Although I have stated several times that my Ss did not choose their (very expensive) schools on the basis of life-long advantages, I will wade in a bit: where the advantages lie depend on your life-long goals (that is, if you have any at 17 or 18). For a long time, if you wanted to be in politics in Mass, you were better off having gone to BC Law School than Harvard Law School. Now, HLS is ranked #2 and BC LS is ranked 29–and it is a significant difference; and it might have been greater a few decades ago. If you want to major in a field that is not strong at HYP, there is no sense applying to HYP, no matter how highly ranked they are in general. Just as there is no sense choosing Harvard Medical School over UWash Medical School if you want to study Primary Care or Family Health, two fields in which UWash Med School excels and HMS does not. But if you want to be surrounded by top math students, you will have a greater likelihood of achieving that aim at Harvard rather than at BC. 9 out of the 20 US Academic First Team members are headed for Harvard next fall, and 6 of those are in math and science; I’m sure their presence in the classroom will make a difference to the learning and teaching environment.</p>

<p>A less selective college or state university will have its share of brilliant students–as good as any to be found at HYPSMC–but they will be sprinkled among a larger number of average and possibly even mediocre students than the very selective colleges. It makes a difference to both students and faculty. One prof explained to me that at the top-ranked state university where she had taught, the top students were as bright as the top students at the top Ivy where she next taught. But the level of excellence dropped faster at the state university than at the Ivy. </p>

<p>There is nothing undemocratic in pointint that out. Nobody is suggesting that students who do not get selected to HYPSMC should not get an education. They all should. And the US has a wide range of institutions of higher education precisely to address the needs of all students.</p>

855

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</p>

<p>That sounds right to me, the state university graduate from two-and-a-half decades ago. And I would add that the trend lines are very much in the direction of more of the top students from my state and from every state going off to the nationally known top colleges. The “flight to quality” is pressuring state universities and other second-tier colleges; they can’t be sure to keep all of the best students in their home recruiting region. Yes, there will always be some amazingly smart students at every state flagship university–I know one who is at my alma mater now, who used to be on the math team I coach. But having the critical mass of really able classmates, which helps prompt the existence of really challenging and life-changing classes, is much harder at the by-the-numbers-admission universities than at the top colleges that select fewer than half of their applicants. </p>

<p>I also happen to like universities with really amazing libraries. My state flagship alma mater is one of those, but it is far exceeded in that respect by some of the nationally sought-after research universities.</p>

856

<p>Marite, for somebody that says she isn’t a status chaser, it is amazing how aware you are of rankings. :)</p>

<p>Will I be a better pediatrician if I go to Washington for med school instead of Harvard?</p>

<p>Is Harvard a better school than Princeton because it has more academic All-Americans in its student body?</p>

857

<p>I would not have called that Pound quote “finer thinking,” but that’s just MHO.</p>

858

<p>“But the level of excellence dropped faster at the state university than at the Ivy.”</p>

<p>You could just have easily written level of parental income, and it would be just as true.</p>

<p>I find myself feeling strange even making the argument, even though, to me, it is so obvious. I attended elite schools, and my d. does. But in so many cases, those who receive “elite educations” are also those who, because of accidents of birth, are least in need of them. I have joked with colleagues (and this is not to pick on Harvard, it’s just easy to use H. as standing for the group), that since we spend $48k a year on incarcerating teenagers, we would do better if we just sent them to Harvard, and let the professors earn their pay. :wink: I don’t blame H. or any the elite schools for this - they want elite students! that’s what makes 'em elite. If they had a student body made up only of bluebloods, they’d be fancy finishing schools (as my alma mater Williams was for a good part of the early 20th century). If they had only the finest minds, but without the grace and finesse that comes with “good breeding”, they’d look a lot more like Cooper Union or MIT than like H or P. So they try to strike a balance, one that is almost irrelevant to the educational life of the nation, but pretty wonderful for the students who are able to avail themselves of the opportunity.</p>

859

<p>Dstark:</p>

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</p>

<p>Since CCers like hard evidence (?) I thought I would quote rankings they recognize rather than my fuzzy knowledge of how HLS and BC Law school compare. As for the field in which my S is interested, he had at least one on his list whose ranking on USNW&R I do not know (I could look it up) and do not care to know. The important thing is that it is known for its excellent math/science program: it’s Harvey Mudd.</p>

<p>

No. Being a good pediatrician involves more than book knowledge; it involves personal qualities that no school, no matter how it tries, can instill in a person. But if you want to ask the question which is the top ranked pediatrics program, then HMS is #1 and UWash is #9. If financial or other personal considerations are a factor, I would just as well go to UWash as to HMS.</p>

<p>

No. But I can tell you that being in a class full of stars in your particular field of interest does make a difference.</p>

<p>If all 6 of the math/science All-Stars all take Math 55–which ordinarily has only 12-15 students–, it will certainly have an impact on how the prof teaches the course and how the other students experience it. But the fact that they will be at Harvard won’t make a difference to students in Expos or Core courses or foreign languages.</p>

860

<p>So the math courses at Harvard are better than the math courses at Princeton?</p>