What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

<p>

Exactly. You’ve managed to ferret out my secret desires for prestige. My many posts, where I’ve tried to stake out a moderate position that there may be some advantage to attending an “elite” college but not an overwhelming one, have been completely ignored – in true CC fashion.</p>

<p>Here’s my position.
Decision – Is money a factor? </p>

<p>If yes, then look for the best (highest rank, best fit?) school your kid can get into, with the most amount of money in aid. I believe this was your strategy, Calmom. It was our position also until our son was accepted into 3 of the top 10 schools on the much-maligned USNWR. </p>

<p>If no, then attend best school your kid can get into, based on both ranking and fit, without regard for aid. Why would anyone CHOOSE to attend a much lower ranked or valued school if money is not a factor, or if the parents are willing to assume debt?</p>

<p>As far as comparing Dartmouth to Chicago, people will have different opinions. Why is the endowment more at Dartmouth? Is there something to that experience which leads alumni to donate later? How about the emphasis on undergraduate vs graduate education? These are a couple of reasons why Dartmouth is ranked higher than Chicago. Though not perfect, there is some rationale in the rankings. And is there something inherently wrong with making a practical choice regarding travel. These factors all were significant in our search and eventual decision. </p>

<p>But I think I’ve grown quite tired of the tendency of some posters to parse the syntax of every post in order to offer some scurrilous interpretation of someone else’s motives. I think I’ve made it abundantly clear that as the product of a public U, I think one can get a terrific education without going private.</p>

<p>And I think I’ll say So Long for a while.</p>

<p>I don’t intend to ignore FS’ reference to Pound. I find it interesting that someone of her political persuasion would feel compelled to quote a notorious anti-Semite, racist, and traitor on the meaning of democracy and education. That tells me a lot about her group at Dartmouth.</p>

<p>FountainSiren’s analogy is right. </p>

<p>Not everything can be evaluated using an economic model or a mathematic proof. </p>

<p>Why quit your job to raise your kid? Why live 15 miles up a dirt road? Why run a marathon? Why volunteer? Why be in a crowded city with bad air and high rent? Why hike the Pacific Crest trail? Only because it speaks to your soul. </p>

<p>That’s just what cur was saying:</p>

<p>“Summary: You may not get anything for spending your money on an elite college, but then again, you may get everything that really matters to you.”</p>

<p>“a notorious anti-Semite, racist, and traitor on the meaning of democracy and education.”</p>

<p>Let’s just call it an “elitist view” (a “lifetime advantage of attending top colleges”? let’s not go there. ;))</p>

<p>“But employers are learning that a degree from a certain college (or having a degree at all) doesn’t guarantee the bottom line, which is performance. I have fired several supposedly “smart” people from “good colleges” because they were utterly useless at their entry-level jobs. In some cases, unfortunately, parents and teachers started telling these people from an early age that they were the smartest folks in the room, and these poor deluded souls finally came to believe this, and hence decided that there was nothing left for them to learn from others.” -montrose</p>

<p>In response to Packers’ original request, I had pointed out a few shortcomings of Ivy grads fresh out of their undergraduates and into the workplace. All too often their confidence built upon years of achievements can rub their colleagues the wrong way, or hinder their ability to get along with their supervisers.</p>

<p>Yet I cannot blame these youngsters too harshly because I was one of those youngsters myself. I meant well and wanted to work hard and achieve in the workplace just as I had always done in classrooms. Unfortunately, none of my college courses taught me the subtleties of office politics, basic business etiquette, or the standard performance evaluation system.</p>

<p>Some Ivy grads pick up these skills by their college graduation, often because their professional parents impart these critical workplace skills to their juniors: often the kids from poor families without readily-available mentors are hurt the most.</p>

<p>Thus my call for the alternative colleges that offer training and education in teamwork, leadership, communication, office politics, etc. in addition to traditional liberal arts curricula. If the Universityi of Phoenix is faring well financially, I don’t see why I can’t start much higher-quality colleges that will prepare students not only for more schooling but for higher earnings.</p>

<p>Dstark:</p>

<p>Math 55 is considered (and not by Harvard folks alone) the hardest freshman calculus class in the country. Usually a lot of students shop the course then decide not to take it. Then 3-weeks into the term, a diagnostic test is administered to further weed out the weaker students. So if next year, the 6 All-Stars end up in Math 55, they will set the bar very high for the rest of the students both for staying in and performing well in that class.
I am not talking about the program or department, but the classroom experienceand that experience includes the instructor, the curriculum and the students. It is not one single thing. Princeton’s math department is as good–some might say a tad better–than Harvard (and so is MIT’s or Caltech). It has had its share of stars (and not all are on the US Team).</p>

<p>“I don’t intend to ignore FS’ reference to Pound. I find it interesting that someone of her political persuasion would feel compelled to quote a notorious anti-Semite, racist, and traitor on the meaning of democracy and education. That tells me a lot about her group at Dartmouth.”</p>

<p>Give me a break.</p>

<p>SBmom, Cur was saying many things including what I objected to. </p>

<p>“Summary: You may not get anything for spending your money on an elite college, but then again, you may get everything that really matters to you.”</p>

<p>I agree with this.</p>

<p>Tsdad</p>

<p>Get a sense of humor…quick, while they last.</p>

<p>The Dartmouth Review always leaves space for one of the editors to post some wise, silly and just ridiculous quotes. The one by Pound was ridiculous. When arranging them I followed it up with Vicini from the “Princess Bride” thusly:</p>

<p>

<a href=“http://www.dartreview.com/archives/2006/04/21/gordon_haffs_last_word.php[/url]”>http://www.dartreview.com/archives/2006/04/21/gordon_haffs_last_word.php&lt;/a&gt;
Followed quickly with:

</p>

<p>I have to remind myself that not all liberals, not even most, perhaps not many, are so harsh and quick to judge as others–you for example. To be clear, I am a female; thus Pound’s sillyness would have denied me an education as well…but then, I have a sense of humor and not everything is “to-the-death” with me.</p>

<p>I don’t expect an apology for the slander, just wanted to clear up any confusion about me being a “fascist,” “anti-Semite” and any other mud you’d care to throw at someone you don’t know.</p>

<p>—haven’t really considered whether or not I am a “traitor”…I am Iranian–and Canadian, so I guess by appearances and climate, maybe…</p>

<p>Marite, Let’s assume the following. Each class can handle 6 kids. Let’s just say as an example…</p>

<p>Your son is in a math class of 6 kids. Everybody is bright.</p>

<p>He has the least ability of the 6 kids. </p>

<p>Does he add value to the class?</p>

<p>Is he bringing the class down?</p>

<p>Should he be dropped out of the class?</p>

<p>Now let’s take a sociology class.</p>

<p>Again 6 kids. I’m the least bright kid in a class, but my experiences are different than everybody else’s.</p>

<p>Do I add a value to the class?</p>

<p>Can I enrich everybody’s “education” in that class?
Am I hurting the education of the other students in the class? Should I be dropped from the class?</p>

<p>“The Dartmouth Review always leaves space for one of he editors to post some wise, silly and just ridiculous quotes.”</p>

<p>I see no evidence that the editors of the Review, nor its readers, are able to distinguish among the wise, silly, and just ridiculous ones, nor the context in which they were said, which is probably why the column of quotes should probably be dropped. ;)</p>

<p>Why, mini, you must get around…even its readers?!</p>

<p>An author, sure; but a divine as well. Impressive!</p>

<p>Why, thank you! But it doesn’t require a genius, or any chanelling - if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and finds good company with other ducks…(I give the editors of DR, and its readers, full credit for knowing what Ezra Pound was about…;)NOT.)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>And a singular wit, as well!!</p>

<p>Can I use this…or is the bon mot now past its expiration date?</p>

<p>Dstark:</p>

<p>What life experience would a weak math kid add to Math 55? </p>

<p>A kid who is weak in math will struggle in Mah 55. He ought not to be in Math 55. He ought to go for an easier class. But if the class is full of students who have discovered new proofs before even setting foot in college, the class will be taught at a higher level. And for those who are not struggling but are merely challenged, that will be an exhilarating experience. As for being dropped from the class, it’s called flunking. </p>

<p>I am not talking sociology. I’ve talked about what people with life experience bring to the classroom in another thread. Sociology is a discipline in which diversity of backgrounds and experience is very valuable. But math is NOT about either diversity of experience.</p>

<p>With apologies to Momwaitingfornew.</p>

<p>I originally addressed the following to Momwaitingfornew. Sorry MWFN.</p>

<p>It should have gone to TSdad:</p>

<p>Tsdad,</p>

<p>Get a sense of humor…quick, while they last.</p>

<p>The Dartmouth Review always leaves space for one of the editors to post some wise, silly and just ridiculous quotes. The one by Pound was ridiculous. When arranging them I followed it up with Vicini from the “Princess Bride” thusly:</p>

<p>Quote:
Real education must ultimately be limited to men who insist on knowing, the rest is mere sheep—herding.
—Ezra Pound </p>

<p>Ever heard of Socrates? Plato? Aristotle? Morons.
—Vicini </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.dartreview.com/archives/...s_last_word.php[/url]”>http://www.dartreview.com/archives/...s_last_word.php&lt;/a&gt;
Followed quickly with:
Quote:
Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink.
—Charles Bukowski </p>

<p>I have to remind myself that not all liberals, not even most, perhaps not many, are so harsh and quick to judge as others–you for example. To be clear, I am a female; thus Pound’s silliness would have denied me an education as well…but then, I have a sense of humor and not everything is “to-the-death” with me.</p>

<p>I don’t expect an apology for the slander, just wanted to clear up any confusion about me being a “fascist,” “anti-Semite” and any other mud you’d care to throw at someone you don’t know.</p>

<p>—haven’t really considered whether or not I am a “traitor”…I am Iranian–and Canadian, so I guess by appearances and climate, maybe…</p>

<p>[sorry to double post, all others]</p>

<p>A lifetime benefit of having attended an elite college:
–You are able to insult people in a literary and intelligent fashion. You can wield a sword of philosphical quotations and French phrases.</p>

<p>A lifetime benefit of having attend a state university:
–You won’t realize you’ve just been been insulted by such a person.</p>

<p>just kidding, of course!</p>

<p>Michigan does not have reunions?? Find that hard to believe. My UW dept has a reunion every two years and the B School has one every year with homecoming. Now there is no U wide reunion other than homecoming but most schools and many depts have their own with a dinner and all that fairly regularly.
Typically half the total grads show at the dept reunion in any one year–about 400 people which is a good number.</p>

<p>TheGFG, your post #877 is hilarious! :D</p>

<p>Marite, your post #854 aligns with my thoughts exactly though you wrote them more eloquently. I also believe the top students at most colleges, including state U’s, would rival students at the top elite schools in the land. It reminds me of the public high school vs. private prep school issue. Some often claim that someone coming out of some exclusive prep school is more capable of performing or more qualified to attend a top college. However, I believe that the top students in an unknown public high school are just as capable, prepared and qualified for a top college. Simply, there are far less students of that calibur at an unknown public high school like the ones my kids went to. But the cream of the graduating class surely are as good as the much larger number of strong students coming out of prep schools and tend to hold their own at the elite colleges. </p>

<p>I also agree with you that there are colleges out there to meet every kind of learning need and the important thing is choosing a college that meets one’s personal college criteria (such as the example of your son’s needs in math). Similarly to how your son picked a college, my child chose not to apply to Harvard because as much as there were appealing aspects to her (location, challenge, residential housing system, ski team, and way more), that once she decided she was leaning toward studying architecture, Harvard just didn’t have it (though has a great school for grad school and she has since done their summer intensive). Harvard did not meet her criteria. </p>

<p>My kids never picked schools by ranking. I had not even heard of college rankings until I visited CC when my oldest started looking into colleges. We live in the boonies and NOBODY here talks of college rankings. When she was a junior or senior, I once bought USNews college issue when taking a plane because I saw that it discussed colleges. Dumb of me to not realize it involved rankings but I wasn’t so interested in that aspect. I read it once. I am very unaware of rankings and couldn’t even tell you where my children’s schools ranked on that list. My own children have never seen the rankings and I am not sure they know they exist. It was and would continue to be unimportant in their college choice. Did they want well regarded schools that were challenging and selective? Yes, because that is the kind of learning environment they crave and frankly, NEED. But where each school ranks, they do not care or need to know. For one of my kids, the one pursuing a BFA in musical theater, there are no rankings. She wanted a well regarded program but other than that being one of her criteria, she had many other specific criteria and would not end up picking X school over Y school if it ranked two places higher even if it did. My other kid narrowed her final choices after acceptances were rendered and knocked Penn off and put Smith and Tufts before it because she liked them better. </p>

<p>My kids college lists were ranked two ways…one way was reach, match, safety (except D2’s list were all reach because all BFA in MT programs are reaches for anyone), and the other way was “most favorite”, “favorite”, and “like a lot and would be happy to attend but not like as much as the favorites on the list”. These three piles or continuim did not correlate with USNEWs rankings, nor necessarily with their reach/match/safety subcategoires. My child had Tufts and Brown above Princeton on her list, for example and Smith and Tufts above Penn. Both kids had a list of individualized college criteria and picked their schools with which school matched that criteria the best for THEM, not which schools are the best in the land. Selectivity or level of challenge was one criteria, just like they wished to take the hardest classes in HS, due to where they fit best in an academic environment. But since many schools are selective, it mattered less if X college was ranked five places higher or lower than Y college, as long as the college was challenging and very selective in general. Then way more other criteria came into play. Like Marite’s son who needed and desired a certain level of math program, my kids had lists of what they wanted and needed in a college.</p>

<p>Marite wrote, “There is nothing undemocratic in pointint that out. Nobody is suggesting that students who do not get selected to HYPSMC should not get an education. They all should. And the US has a wide range of institutions of higher education precisely to address the needs of all students”.</p>

<p>I don’t see anybody arguing this.</p>

<p>“A less selective college or state university will have its share of brilliant students–as good as any to be found at HYPSMC–but they will be sprinkled among a larger number of average and possibly even mediocre students than the very selective colleges. It makes a difference to both students and faculty. One prof explained to me that at the top-ranked state university where she had taught, the top students were as bright as the top students at the top Ivy where she next taught. But the level of excellence dropped faster at the state university than at the Ivy”. </p>

<p>From the preceding paragraph…</p>

<p>“It makes a difference to both students and faculty.”</p>

<p>Marite, what I was trying to get at in my 6 student examples…</p>

<p>Does this hold true in all disciplines?
Does different mean better?
Your own example of the comparisons between the Harvard College and the Harvard Extension don’t really lead to one being better than the other, right?</p>

<p>One professor explained to me that a classroom is better with students of varying abilities. You put the students in groups with strong students, weak students and middle students in each group.</p>

<p>The strong students learn by having to explain things to weaker students. It solidifies their thinking. They also learn that students of varying abilities can still come up with amazing and valid thoughts. The weaker students learn by listening to the stronger students. They learn how to express themselves from the stronger students. They learn how to push themselves.</p>

<p>This professor has been researching this for 30+ years. </p>

<p>So there are a variety of opinions out there on this issue.</p>