<p>BTW: My D is certainly benefitting academically by being with faster kids. No question in my mind. </p>
<p>When out of her particular strong areas, I do not think she benefits others in the classroom very much. Thinking hard about her potential benefit to the faster kids in math or science, it might be that her creative mind occasionally makes the odd leap that would not otherwise get made in a discussion… probably rare, but possible.</p>
<p>In the humanities, arts, creative endeavors, sports, and human relationships, she excels. I think her value to the whole community is largely in those areas.</p>
<p>This year, she accidentally took a VERY hard science class that happened to be full of science majors. Several of them really helped her get through it. I am grateful to them. They enhanced her experience a great deal.</p>
<p>“The slow kid in the Harvard class is closer in ability level to the leaders in his class. Whereas at the state school, fewer leaders, lots of slower kids, and a more dramatic difference in ability between leaders and slowest.”</p>
<p>Does this matter?</p>
<p>“This year, she accidentally took a VERY hard science class that happened to be full of science majors. Several of them really helped her get through it. I am grateful to them. They enhanced her experience a great deal.”</p>
<p>Just a hunch. The science majors benefitted by helping her.</p>
<p>I meant the range between #1 in Math 55 at Harvard and the bottom of that class is very narrow. I would assume most Big State U classes have a broader range. </p>
<p>Obviously in specialized honors depts/ classes that are not requirements, you will get a more elite group with a closer ability range. </p>
<p>I guess in those classes the kids get the “all high flyer” Harvard benefits, rather than the “big range” benefits postulated by dstark.</p>
<p>Educating the individual in group dynamics applies to many aspects of life. Volunteer projects, sports teams, just about anything with more than one person. And as to ability on projects in the workplace–ability often has less to do with problems than lack of commitment and other attitude problems. How important, really are the details of the classroom type project? Learning the exports of Peru or some other thing that most likely will be long forgotten in a month or two??</p>
<p>I don’t advocate heavy use of group projects but a project as part of the class is not harmful. At the university level I did not run into many people who could not contribute in some way.</p>
<p>“This year, she accidentally took a VERY hard science class that happened to be full of science majors. Several of them really helped her get through it. I am grateful to them. They enhanced her experience a great deal.”</p>
<p>Just a hunch. The science majors benefitted by helping her.</p>
<p>I know when my daughter tutors students, she learns.</p>
<p>Maybe. But it was not my S who exhibited lack of commitment or other attitude problems.I would think any company would want to hire someone who is willing to do 3/4 of a project all by himself several years running just for the joy of doing it the work AND completing it. </p>
<p>But please explain why you think Honors classes have value and whether students in Honors classes are different from those in college prep or remedial classes.</p>
<p>Okay, so the trophy awarded to these bright high achieving kids willing to dot all the is, cross all the ts, jump through all the hoops, and play the admissions game better than others is the right to associate with other high achieving hoop jumpers on elite campuses and contemplate life. I have no problem with that. We all know the rules of the game.</p>
<p>What I have a problem with is confusing the above strategies with talent, passion and giftedness and thus believing that the selection criteria used by the “elite” colleges somehow screens for these more important criteria. That those who choose to attend state universities are less qualified. </p>
<p>SAT scores earned after hours of prep classes, essays corrected and rewritten by professional editors, ECs chosen with an eye for how they look to an admissions committee likewise do not impress me. No doubt there are brilliant passionate students at the elite college are they the most brilliant and the most passionate. Unlike others on this list I have my doubts. </p>
<p>But, then again, I try to teach my daughter to NOT buy purses because of the label on them.</p>
<p>Dstark, driver has brought up what I have twice now about if all this is talk of who goes to selective schools and so on is a negative, then what about the concept of Honors classes in high school or Honors Colleges at state U’s? It is kinda the same idea. Now you are saying that you find value in Honors classes. How so? The same idea behind those is akin to various college options and degrees of selectivity to be admitted.</p>
<p>I agree with other posters, such as ICargirl and Marite that when a student who used to stand out as tops in high school is then in a college of like peers, it is stimulating for them because I think they PREFER to not stand out but to be challenged by NOT being the best. My younger D just said the other day, after just coming home from her first year of college at a highly selective BFA program that for the first time in her life, she has had to question if she was truly talented because she no longer stood out like she had up until college. It is humbling. Not being at the top is more challenging and stimulating. It may not have the glory but it is preferable as a learning situation. </p>
<p>I also don’t understand the generalization that those who go to top schools can’t cut it in the job world in terms of working as a team and collaborating in groups, etc. Wow, that is foreign from my experience. For one, I have a kid at an Ivy who is on two sports teams. She surely has to function in a group there. She also took an engineering course where the final project was done in a small group and involved lots of problem solving as a group and they had to build something together. I have a kid doing an internship in a professional setting this summer in which she will be working in a collaborative manner in every aspect of the job. Also, my children have held paid jobs in high school and since. Come to think of it, both are in paid jobs this summer. I don’t quite see that what they do in their classrooms at college as the only learning and preparation they will have going into the workforce. Who they are as potential employees is the sum of all their experiences…including classroom work in college, time prior to college, paid jobs and internships they have held, sports teams, dance troupes, bands, and theater productions, a capella groups, etc. They have had to collaborate a LOT in their lives. Have you ever seen behind the scenes in a theater production or an a capella group? Not so different than the work world. Learning takes many forms and those who to to college, any college including elite ones, learn more than merely content of material.</p>
<p>Rather than say one group is more intelligent (which is difficult to define on an absolute scale despite the existence of IQ tests) than another, I think a safer description might be “academically accomplished” or “academically capable” versus “less academically inclined.” When it comes down to it, most students are admitted to certain colleges based on quantifiable information such as grades and SAT/ACT scores. Sure, the top schools try to further narrow the field through an examination of ECs as a measure of how well a student can juggle a rigorous course load with meaningful activities, but really, it comes down to grades. The average student at the average state university (meaning not the state schools also considered to be rivals of top private ones) may not study as hard or might find other things besides school learning to be more important. That student could be just as bright as the kid who gets into HYPS, but he is not as accomplished when it comes to the quantifiable measures. A B student does not have as many choices as an A student does. That B student might not enjoy classroom learning as much as the A student does. HYPS are geared towards those who love formal learning and books and challenges in the classroom. State universities are more geared toward giving an education to those who don’t want to (or can’t) work as hard. That’s not to say that state u’s don’t have academically accomplished students, but that their primary mission is to provide a college degree for as many state students as possible. State u’s don’t exist to challenge the students; they are there to educate a broad base. HYPS and the like have a more specific goal - to challenge the best students in the nation. Note: “best students” does not equate with “geniuses.” Yes, sometime it does. You have to be highly intelligent to get into HYPS, but that doesn’t mean that all highly intelligent people go to those schools. </p>
<p>My nephew, who is extremely bright, does not see the value in homework. He thinks it is a waste of time and therefore either fails to do it or doesn’t hand it in. Since his school grades homework the way it grades quizzes, he has terrible grades despite often getting As on the tests themselves. He knows the material, but sees no point in school itself. His SAT scores were low because he didn’t care about them. Therefore, he will be attending a community college. Is he slower than my d., who is going to a top LAC? No, I wouldn’t say that. They are probably equally gifted intellectually. I <em>would</em> say that he doesn’t value education the way she does. He is simply not a conscientious student; he does not want his knowledge to be measured by what he sees as artificial means. He has no interest in delving deeply into a problem unless it impacts him personally.</p>
<p>Now, despite his quick mind, if he were to be placed in a college class with my d. (forgetting that she will be attending a women’s college ;-), his attitude toward learning probably would annoy the rest of the class. At this point, he doesn’t know - or care to know - how to learn at the same level my d. does. Despite his potential, his expression of ideas is more seat-of-his-pants than truly contemplative. When he discovers his true passion, I’m sure he will excel, but, in the meantime, he is unfocused. This is the difference, albeit simplified to an anecdote, between a top college learning atmosphere and a less competitive one. It’s not purely a matter of intelligence, although that does come into play, but of preparedness and a passion for learning. Students at the most competitive colleges generally love school; they cannot get enough. This passion translates into a highly-charged intellectual atmosphere that goes beyond the classroom and into the dorms and dining halls. If you love this kind of environment, then you’ll find lifetime advantages; otherwise, it would be a waste of money.</p>
<p>Those science majors may have benefitted by helping her, but remember that was in the context of a class with 17 of 18 kids who were very skilled. They got the benefit of helping AND they got the benefit of a high percentage of smarties, rather than only one benefit.</p>
<p>Maybe this is the argument for legacies? ;)</p>
<p>So, once we take away all the rancor, what we’ve come to is this:</p>
<p>The choice of whether to attend a so called “elite” school or a less renowned state school is a personal decision dependant on a variety of factors. One is how much the parents are capable of paying, and what the difference in cost will be. One is “fit” and strength of particular departments. Another is whether or not the lower ranked school in question has an honors program, and how comprehensive that program is. Another is career aspirations. Another is whether you value percieved educational quality over a tpye of diversity you willl more likely find at a less prestigious school.</p>
<p>You should not attend an “elite” in order to make more money or be more succesful. You should not asssume that you cannot get a great education at a lower ranked school. You should not assume that you will not meet bright, intelligent people at a lower ranked school. However, you will be around students with quantifiably better high school performance and test scores who have beenselected in a very rigorous process. Hopefully, this translates into a generally smarter and more motivated student body. At times, you might, as an added bonus, get certain opportunities that come your way because of the prestige, or large endowment, of your chosen school. Whether or not it is worth it to pay more for this is up to the student and the parent.</p>
<p>Well everyone here has perfect kids who never had to study for the SAT but those SAT classes are not filled with blow-up dolls. Those articles about ever-stressed and competitive students were not written as fiction.</p>
<p>If your bright son does not care for homework, it may be because he is not sufficiently challenged, and he needs to be in a harder class. Unfortunately, schools reward doing the homework and the busywork. This was precisely what my S did not want and why he got radically accelerated in math/science. At the level that was appropriate for him the homework stopped looking like busywork and became meaningful.</p>
<p>“You should not attend an “elite” in order to make more money or be more succesful.”</p>
<p>You should attend an elite school if your family already has more money and are already more likely to be successful, or if you see value in the generational effects of money and success rubbing off on you (whether in contact with your classmates, or the school’s ability to keep class sizes small and/or pay top-dollar for faculty). You are assured, in advance, that a large percentage of such students will be attending, and that approximately 50% of the student body will come from the top 5% of families in family income, and about half of that from the top 2-3%, and they tend to be smart buyers. Indeed, that’s what gives the schools their prestige, and why (seriously) you should consider seeking it. (and I see absolutely nothing wrong in that.)</p>
<p>And, you have decided this because he doesn’t choose to do homework? Obviously he didn’t need this homework if he is making A’s on tests. Perhaps he chose to not do the “useless homework” because he preferred to use his time learning. Homework, to many gifted kids, often has nothng to do with learning and everything to do with pleasing the teacher.</p>
<p>I don’t like the way golferfirst characterizes the students at these schools. I see very little i-dotting etc amongst my D’s friends. I know some kids are like that, but you are tarring with too broad of a bush. Let’s take AluD for example since she’s really the only person I know well who has been through the applying to college process in the last 30 years.</p>
<p>First of all, D went to an alternative school all the way to 8th grade where she didn’t even GET any grades. They took ceramics. The core curriculum for the middle school was camping trips. They ran around in bare feet. D did exactly what you are all talking about - taught the kids in math who didn’t get it as quickly as she did. </p>
<p>D got to high school and just liked the challenge. It was a new project. So first report card comes home straight As. We never said one thing about homework. She actually just wanted to take it on. All report cards following, same thing. She took the PSAT without any studying at all. 1510. Then we said, in our ignorance, oh well guess she should take an SAT class. One month long Princeton Review. Score went down to 1470:). That was it for testing. </p>
<p>I’m sorry people find it so hard to believe that these kinds of kids exist. And that their existence is no slur on anyone else. I know they are randomly distributed too, because I have a second kid. And it’s quite likely he will be one of those bright kids enjoying State U. rather than chewing up scenery at Princeton, because I refuse to push him to do stuff that isn’t him, and I refuse to push academic performance beyond “You have to do your homework and you have to actually pay attention to it and not just spend 45 seconds at a time in between perusing the NBA forums…” I may not like his A- but beyond a certain point I have to respect his being. And I do. And adore him besides.</p>
<p>Some kids just want to eat up the world. They are born like that. There’s so much discussion on this board about whether to push kids academically and EC-wise, and so many of us who say No, let the kids find their own interests, with parents providing encouragement only and helping them find resources where necessary, I would think you might believe some of us after a while.</p>
<p>The question, Dstark is not whether you have a problem with honors classes if someone else wants to take them. The question is whether honors classes are better than non-honors classes; and if you would prefer your bright child to be in honors classes rather than college prep or remedial class.<br>
I do know of few kid who got into a non-honors class because the honors one was full. He, not surprisingly, got first prize in that class by a long shot. But by and large, the students in the honors class were different from those in the non-honors class in terms of ability.</p>