What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

SBmom · May 19, 2006, 5:37pm

MWFN,

Your nephew = my son.

He will probably be one of the smarter kids at a less elite school when he goes to college. The rub is that I think he’d explode in an open curriculum school, where every class felt relevant to him-- and I dont think there are many ‘less elites’ with an open curriculum. If anyone knows one, please share.

golferfirst,

I would prefer my son be in the “high %” environment because the more excited he gets the more he takes ownership and once he does this he performs. I think if he had an open curriculum, he’d have ownership over every class and if he was on fire he’d be fine in very mixed ability groups. However, in a required class that he feels ‘meh’ about, he may need the critical mass of very focused kids to start the discussion and draw him in with their great ideas.

There isn’t always a simple answer for every kid.

originaloog · May 19, 2006, 5:40pm

Barron’s has observed that everyone here has perfect kids who never had to study for the SAT. Yes, it seems we live in a very Lake Wobegonian community.

Alumother · May 19, 2006, 5:43pm

Kids can have a lot of imperfections that have zero to do with their need to study for the SAT. How about selfishness? How about laziness? How about cynicism? How about consumerism? How about deceitfulness? But this isn’t a parenting site. It’s a college site. So we aren’t talking about the other aspects of our children. BTW, those are not the list of my child’s character flaws and you won’t see me posting such a thing here:). And some kids do have strengths in the go to school take tests find ideas exciting get involved in a lot of stuff that you love get accepted to top colleges area.

garland · May 19, 2006, 5:45pm

Originaloog: Why so cynical? I don’t know about “everyone”, but my kids didn’t study for the SAT. I bet you didn’t either, I know I didn’t. Why should our kids have had to?

SBmom · May 19, 2006, 5:47pm

::raising hand madly::

My daughter studied for the SAT! And my son will too!!

Lake Woebegone would kick my family right out.

emeraldkity4 · May 19, 2006, 5:49pm

I really don’t think those articles about ever stressed students are any more representative of american high shcool students than those people that Jay Leno finds who don’t know who George Washington is or that Mexico is in North america is representative of the knowledge of the American public.

My daughter really didn’t study for the SAT- and she didnt’ take any AP tests or classes- still she just graduated from a good college, and she was admitted to all the schools that she applied to.

I realize that some of her peers are amazingly bright- the girl I mentioned in another thread about manners- who had given my daughter her ice cream bar, when I had run out at a class birthday celebration, took the old SAT in 6th gd and got a 1400, she skipped high school, and graduated with a double major in very rigourous depts( physics and astronomy) with a minor in Russian.

But she knows that not all knowledge can be obtained from a classroom or even from those who are your “intellectual” equal.
From descriptions it sounds that some students on the CC boards, have similar talents- yet that doesnt mean that they can’t benefit from attending a college where they are the top 1% or the top 33%.

There isn’t one way to be educated or to live our lives.

LIfe is not over, because you didn’t get into Swarthmore and it doesn’t begin because you got into Stanford.

I really like a quote that Steve Jobs cited in his commencement speech last year at Stanford- “LIve each day, as it will be your last, because one day you will be right”
I also liked the topic of Tamin Ansarys commencement speech this year at Reed. " You are living your story, not your mothers story, not your sisters story, and it won’t be complete until the end."

What kind of story are we living?
A romantic adventure? an intellectual treatise? Or a soap opera complete with bon-bons?

yes I know I am not necessarily clear- but what I am trying to say is- the chapter that involve higher education, is not necessarily going to determine how the story comes out-I think that while it is certainly commendable to help your child obtain a decent college education, I think it is much more important to teach them to be a decent person,to love and be loved and care for the earth.

Tamin in his address- quoted from a letter that he had written to an old girlfriend many years ago- when he felt disillusioned .

In it, I said I was giving up all my old ambitions:
I could see that I wasnt going to change the world. I was no knight of the round table and there was no Camelot, and all I wanted nowand I listed the pitifully shrunken and trivial goals to which I then aspired:
to love someone truly and be loved in return to have a home, and to feel at homesomewhere in the world To do some needed and meaningful work and receive a decent income for it to have and deserve the respect of my society.

But he also reflects at how he felt upon reading those words he had writted long ago

*But looking at that list of goals now, I felt stunned. First, because I could check them all off now: everything I had wanted twenty years earlier, I now had. But second, and more important, these goals no longer struck me as trivial. They seemed huge to me, huge. *

I think it is important to be educated- but what is education really?

simba · May 19, 2006, 5:49pm

“SAT scores earned after hours of prep classes, essays corrected and rewritten by professional editors, ECs chosen with an eye for how they look to an admissions committee likewise do not impress me.”

That is nonsense…Do you have any proof that every kid who scored 1600 went to a class or had their essays re-done by professional writers and they picked their ECs to look good.

Man/lady go out, take off your blinders and experience the real world.

golferfirst · May 19, 2006, 5:52pm

Alumother:

Oh please! Have you ever taken a look at the rest of the board??? The vast majority of this site exists to help kids do exactly that - and better than their competition who might not have discovered it.

Even among the brightest and best, if they don’t dot their i’s and cross their t’s - their application will be cast aside. This thread reads like Lake Woebegon.

But, my point has never been that there is not brilliance in the ivy/elite. It is that such brilliance exists elsewhere. And, that sometimes, kids choices are more dependent upon their economic situation than their brilliance. It’s fine for the wealthy to choose the ivy. Fine for those who have financial aid and don’t have to actually lay out the cash. But, for someone of moderate means to actually look at the cost/benefit of $160,000 versus $0 these issues make a difference.

Some parents seem to “get this”. Some parents were actually trying to discern what do they get for the outlay of cash. Others prefer to just continue to brag and pat themselves on their back - for the accomplishments of their children? Or was it their childrens’ accomplishments after all?

soozievt · May 19, 2006, 5:53pm

Golferfirst states:
"What I have a problem with is confusing the above strategies with talent, passion and giftedness and thus believing that the selection criteria used by the “elite” colleges somehow screens for these more important criteria. That those who choose to attend state universities are less qualified.

SAT scores earned after hours of prep classes, essays corrected and rewritten by professional editors, ECs chosen with an eye for how they look to an admissions committee likewise do not impress me. No doubt there are brilliant passionate students at the elite college are they the most brilliant and the most passionate. Unlike others on this list I have my doubts.

But, then again, I try to teach my daughter to NOT buy purses because of the label on them."

For starters, I have two daughters and neither owns or would purchase a purse with a label on them! Not only couldn’t they afford it, but neither craves one at all. One has a purse that cost $20 and didn’t even own a purse until she was 19, and one owns a purse that cost $35. We are not poor whatsoever but my kids do not value designer purses or clothing. They still have nice stuff though :D.

But back to colleges…I SURELY do not believe that there are not very bright and very capable and motivated students at less selective colleges and state U’s. I have said this time and again. Elite schools are not BETTER, but are just different, as well as have a different level of selectivity. I am sure the kids in the Honors College at State U rival many at Ivies. I know kids at the Honors College at State U and many of these were the top students at our HS, including a val. I just don’t think EVERYONE at a less selective college or not all of those who are not in the Honors College at state U, are the same type of student as the majority in a highly selective school. But good students exist everywhere. I haven’t seen anyone dispute that fact.

Now, you are suggesting that those who get into the most selective schools just do so because of SAT prep classes, application essays edited or rewritten by professionals, and ECs chosen to look good for college. I don’t doubt that you know kids like this in your community and I have read such accounts. I don’t personally know anyone like this and I can say that it is very different than my own children’s experiences.

SAT prep: D1 did zero prep for the PSAT but the one practice test that came with it to understand the format. She learned that she had difficulty finishing the test on time which cost her in the score. D1 took some practice SAT tests at home junior year and looked over a book. She needed to learn how to finish the test on time. She did I believe approx. 6 sessions with a tutor to figure out how to take the test on time. She took some more practice tests a few more times, and took the SATs and her score went up 200 points as she finished the test. Did not take any SAT prep classes. D2 took a few practice tests from the book, 10 Real SATs at home a total of three times. No other prep, no classes, no tutor. Her score shot up 100 points in one month from taking three practice tests at the kitchen table. She never took the PSATs because she was scheduled to take them in Oct. of 10th grade and my father was dying and we were called out of state at the last min. and she missed the test. She decided to graduate HS a year early so took all her SATs and SAT2 tests in tenth grade and never took the PSATs in eleventh as she was applying to college at that point.

Essays: no professional worked with either kid. They each wrote their essays. Mom and Dad looked them over and offered feedback. D1 chose to show her finished essays to her English teacher who offered some feedback but not that much. D2 did not do that.

ECs: Neither ever picked an EC to look good for college. That notion never came up ever. Each of their EC areas were deeply held passions started when they were very young. Most of their EC endeavors had between 9-12 years of involvement, not just four. Both are continuing most of their ECs now in college. One is actually going to college for the area she did as an EC. Both love their ECs so much that they are engaged in them in the summers as well even now that they are in college. D2 has been home for less than 3 days from college and from the moment she set foot in the state, she has been out of the house because she created a musical cabaret and is putting it on in one week with two others from our state…conceived of the show, hired musicians, rented a theater, doing publicity, secured the music, and is rehearsing all in one week’s time, including donating proceeds to charity. She is supposed to be on a one month “break”…yeah right. She hasn’t taken one hour off yet! She then leaves for a professional job for summer related to her EC. Other D starts her summer off paying for a training camp at Mt. Hood, Oregon…she is a ski racer and is deeply passionate about that and chose before leaving to work in France for the summer (in a children’s program that is a language immerision program where they learn English…she LOVES French, is fluent, and likely will teach tennis or one of her other lifelong passions in that program), and she wants to push herself in her training in ski racing and elected to attend and pay for this training camp during the little bit of time off she was to have had! Kids do not do this because they have to…they do so because they want to and are passionate about these things. These are not ECs for college, but they are ECs for life.

marite · May 19, 2006, 5:54pm

There’s nothing wrong with studying for the SAT. 
But what I, and no doubt Garland, objected to is the idea that the kids who go to highly selective schools (I hate the term Ivies when selective schools include more than the members of the Ivy League) are joyless grade grubbers. There is a reason why MIT (not an Ivy!) asks teachers and GC to evaluate whether the student received the grade by dint of memorization, being hard-working, being grade-conscious or being brilliant. No prize for guessing which answer will get the student into MIT.

Alumother · May 19, 2006, 5:57pm

Golfer, I’m not talking about the outlay of cash. I agree with everyone else. If you can afford it or the school makes it affordable go ahead. If not, the decision is your own personal calculus.

All I was doing was refuting your characterization of the kids at these schools as follows:

The point I am making is this: for some kids this is not a game. They are not jumping through hoops like trained beasties. For some kids this is their true form, kind of like horses let out to pasture at the end of the day.

I am echoing Marite’s point above, in a much more fanciful way. But the point is the same.

garland · May 19, 2006, 5:58pm

Ya know, it’s interesting. I have been in agreement about why I think it’s great for academically high achieving students to go to school with similarly minded students. I felt that the thread title, “top schools,” included my alma mater. Because I had the kind of academic expereince there that was missing at the much less academically oriented school I started at, I know there is a difference. I know it’s not fun to be the only one talking in class; to meet people in dorms, in the library, in class, everywhere, who care about thought and ideas. It was not that way in the first school I was at. So, like i said, I know the difference.

I lived that difference, as did my D who also transfered from a school where she was the only one talking in class, to a place where she ran to the library after every class to read up on references and writers brought up by fellow students in class.

For both of us, it was like doors opening that we didn’t even know about. Should everyone who wants to go through those doors get to? Absolutely. And if everyone at our first schools had wanted to know about those doors, then they would have appeared there, too, because they come from the desires of the students, not the endowment, not the lab equipment, and not even so much from the profs.

Alumother · May 19, 2006, 6:01pm

Garland, to clear it up, I don’t think of UMich on the other side of the divide. I don’t think there is a divide, only a spectrum.

Momwaitingfornew · May 19, 2006, 6:03pm

“And, you have decided this because he doesn’t choose to do homework? Obviously he didn’t need this homework if he is making A’s on tests.”

No, I decided a lot of this because I know him. His grades are dependent on doing his homework, which includes papers, but I know the rest based on conversations I’ve had with him. Naturally, I’ve simplified the whole thing to fit on this thread, but part of the fault is indeed with the level of education he is receiving.

In his case, he is bright but not educated as well as he should be, in part because he has little desire to excel. But that wasn’t my point at all.

mini · May 19, 2006, 6:03pm

What I would like to see is a book of interviews with folks who finished in the bottom five at HYPS, AWS. I think they would be in a terrific position to talk about the lifetime advantages that accrue from attending top colleges, independent of their own performance in them. Then we could begin to separate out what advantages (“value added”) came from the school. And since each of these schools would have a “bottom 5”, they’d likely be able to offer information that would be unavailable in any other way.

DRJ4 · May 19, 2006, 6:04pm

So much for the theory that elite colleges attract a diverse student body.

originaloog · May 19, 2006, 6:05pm

Garland, it was a joke!

marite · May 19, 2006, 6:10pm

Mini:

It would indeed be interesting. But if Harvard selects for the happy bottom quarter and others just “have” a bottom quarter, will not the analysis of value-added be skewed? Just asking :)

I think that all colleges have value-added. But which value? My S would never consider getting a great job as a top value (he might eventually decide to become an actuary but I’m not holding my breath or basing my retirement strategy on this scenario). To him, however, being surrounded by people with interests other than his, extremely talented people at that, was a definite consideration.

wsox · May 19, 2006, 6:10pm

Mini…how can you consistently make every discussion into class wars. Unfortunately facts don’t support your marxist assertions (you certainly didn’t study economics at the U of C). How can you make such an outrageous remark as 50% of the kids come from the top 5% of society. Pton provides 55% of its students financial aid and I assure the top 5% are not getting financial aid. Many of the others have merit aid, grampa’s savings or other awards. The schools go through handstands to recruit for economic diversity. The sad fact is a lot of kids just can’t meet the tough academic requirements and half the faculty would quit if your hypothesis were the school’s objective. Finally, the elite schools led by Pton did away with loans. Calling loans “financial aid” is intellectually dishonest and Pton should be commended for its economic outreach even if you feel compelled to bash it.

soozievt · May 19, 2006, 6:16pm

By the way, while I mentioned that D1 took practice tests for the SAT and met with someone six times, it was because she needed to learn how to finish the test. She knew that when she took a practice test at home at the start of 11th grade to see where she was at, that the score might keep her out of schools that otherwise were at her level academically or where her other “qualifications” matched…such as 4.0 GPA, ranked first in class, etc. Her scores did not line up with the rest of her profile. She decided to spend a handful of sessions learning how to finish the test on time so that her score would be more in keeping with the rest of her profile and not keep her out which it would have based on her first practice test. However, she set a personal goal to reach when she took the test for real in spring of Junior year, BUT by the standards of many on CC, it wasn’t in the same stratosphere that many here seem to think one MUST have. She did obtain a score above her goal and was content to leave it at that. She did not keep retaking and retaking to get a higher score still. It was good enough in her book. It wouldn’t get her in but wouldn’t stick out to keep her out. It wasn’t as high as many on CC but it was in the ballpark for any college in the country. She was not test crazy. I have read accounts of students with higher SATs or even SAT2’s on here than my D’s and they talk about still retaking them. That was not what she was like. She only wanted to get a score in range of her reach schools and in keeping with the rest of her level of academic achievement. So, yes, she did practice the test a half dozen times to finally get the knack of how to take it and finish on time which brought her score up. Other D had similar goal (finishing on time was not an issue for her, however) and once she reached over that goal in spring of tenth grade, it was good enough to her…in range of colleges on her list. No need to keep testing and studying. In my view, they did a minimum amount when it came to standardized testing prep and test taking. They knew the tests counted so did put a little energy into making sure they knew how to take th test and to get within a range that aligned with their academic profile and were in range with the colleges they wished to apply to. They did not chase scores or have any need to be over 1500. They made out just fine and each is attending one of her first choice colleges.

I don’t think a little preparation is a bad thing. It actually makes sense to do and I advise many students to do it, since the tests count. It is the ones who get obssessed with testing and seem to not be satisfied with already very good scores, that are over the top, in my opinion. Once a student scores within range of a school, it is not going to matter if they get 50 more points or not. They just need to be in the ballpark. And if they are not in the ballpark, then they need to pick different schools or have a range of schools.

What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

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