What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

driver · May 8, 2006, 5:03pm

It all depends upon what you want to do with your elite degree. Clearly, in journalism, it opens doors in a big way (not that it necessarily should). There are 23 “editors” of varying rank listed on the masthead of The New Republic. Of these, 15 went to Ivies (or Oxford with Ivy graduate work) for undergrad, with Harvard dominant. Of those who did not go to Ivies, they have one each from Swarthmore, Wesleyan, Vanderbilt, UMich, UCB, and Tulane–and not a journalism major among them. Two declared no education at all in their bios, and they are relatively recent (last 10 years) hires.

Roger_Dooley · May 8, 2006, 5:03pm

Those who attend elite schools certainly aren’t superior. I’d hazard a guess that most applied to at least one or two non-elites. Some students turn down elite schools either for fit or financial reasons; they are still the same students whether they are at Harvard or Big State U.

One could make the case that the average student has much better stats at an elite school, and even that the bottom quartile would be in the upper tier at many schools, but that doesn’t tell you anything about an individual who’s a member of one population or the other.

The real question is whether there’s an elite impact on the same student, i.e., if identical twins with identical high school achievements separate to attend Yale and, say, Indiana University, will the former be conferred a lifetime advantage that the latter will not?

I’d point out that every school has strong points to capitalize on, but students have to take advantage of them; rarely do they accrue to the passive student. An undergrad who knows she’s headed for banking or law and spends four years aggressively building contacts at Harvard probably WILL reap a greater benefit than had she attended a small-state LAC. A student in a Big 10 university with major research facilities may have unique opportunities… but only if he vigorously cultivates profs or other gatekeepers.

I think the school name can help a bit in landing the first job, and later in one’s career if there’s a major career switch. I can certainly understand how Alumother’s degree added some credibility or sparked employer interest after extensive time off. (I’ve used high school val/sal status or a demanding undergrad degree as a tiebreaker many years after the applicant graduated, mainly because I couldn’t tell much from their work history and I figured that they probably weren’t dunces.) Some industries, notably consulting and investment banking, place some value on prestige degrees for new hires.

An elite degree isn’t always a plus. Hiring for small companies in the Midwest, I never saw many applicants with Ivy credentials. When a Yale grad DID apply for a fairly low level position, and I reviewed his choppy career path, his resume went into the rejects as I assumed that for a presumed high potential grad he must have some problems to have achieved such lackluster career results. (Perhaps that was an unfair assumption, but the resume review process is all about eliminating most candidates from the giant stack to arrive at a small number to interview.) Had the same guy struggled through a second-tier state school part-time, I probably would have cut him more slack.

SBmom · May 8, 2006, 5:41pm

blossom said:

Very much agree with this. Illustration below…

I’d take it one step further in that some (not all) high-achieving kids (or very pretty 5’9" girls, in this analogy) will fly a bit higher and do even more when surrounded by the ‘right’ group of peers.

As I said before, ‘right’ could be the honors dept somewhere, the ‘number not a name’ big U, the HYP intense environment, the mellow Brown/Dartmouth environment, the nurturing LAC… Basically this is FIT-- a kid should find his/her peer group and environment inspiring and it should bring out his/her best. There are enough very bright kids at lots of schools for all the very bright kids to find a happy home.

My D’s outcome, I can already tell, is going to be much, much better in a very ‘concentratedly’ academic school than it would have been at a big U with a lower concentration of brainiacs. Why? She is a bit of a Zelig who needs the rising tide to lift her boat. She’s the “plain Jane” type in Blossom’s analogy.

She was a reasonably good student in HS, not absolutely outstanding-- top 15% but not top 5%. She’d shrug off a poor grade here and there with complete equanimity; she wasn’t fiercely intellectual, she didn’t have a set academic direction… She’s basically the type who tracks along with her general peer group and does not feel the need to be high atop it. For good and ill, she is just plain mellow!

After one year at a great LAC in small and challenging classes, and most importantly with very motivated peers, she is plugged in, loving her classes, interested in everything, and now planning a – GASP!-- double major. Believe me, this announcement put me and her dad on the floor. This is a major change ;)

Her evolution has been incredible. This school has not been a slide on ice for her-- one class was dropped 1st semester due to a pending academic disaster-- but she regrouped. She’s now taking an extra class this semester, so will wind up on pace.

One of this term’s courses is a science class (this kid is NOT a science kid). As it is a small seminar, it seemed good for her learning style; discussion oriented, rather than reams of calc. Turns out, though, that she is the only one of the 20 kids who is not majoring in science, and it is really hard! My advice was, “okay honey, don’t stress over it-- you can certainly just pull through and get a C.” Her reply was a horrified, “Mom! Kids here don’t get C’s!”

She’ll probably always be a kid who is comfy in the top 20%. But at her college, that spot is pretty darn high. I am a realist and I suspect if she was at “Kegger U” she’d still track with the top ~20%.

To me, seeing her getting really turned on by her peers and feeling the need to track with them is worth every single penny.

Eagle79 · May 8, 2006, 5:44pm

Myself, I kind of like the Krueger and Dale study because many people claim that it is the connections from certain schools that can determine “success” in life (whatever that is). It runs counter to that, it shows that you can make connections and be successful, as defined by salary, going anywhere. It is really about the student not the institution.

The comment about people making assumptions that you are smart based upon where you went to school is not the reason to choose a school. At the end of the day I would rather be smart than just be perceived as smart. I also find that to be a poor assumption considering that many schools have a history of discrimination against certain ethnic classes, sexes or other individuals. The book “The Chosen” details discrimination against the Jews within the Ivy League institutions. Before that it was the ethnic catholics who were discriminated against, only their solution was different, start their own schools. Some of that discrimination still exists, look at the peer assessment rating of more religiously oriented schools.

Agreed, if it was just about money then send all your children to engineering school. Excellent starting pay right out of school and great prospects! Additionally, it diminishes the mission of other schools that may be more socially concious whose metric is how many students took a position with the Peace Corp, the Jesuit Volunteer Corp or some other low pay type of position.

Finally, regarding a students peers, does your perception change if the school has an honors college? For example, there are more students attending UMich each year with an SAT score above 1400 than the whole class at Dartmouth. It is just that not all the students are above 1400 on their SAT scores (or whatever measure you use for being “smart”). However, it is more real world. The place where will all have to live after we get out of school. Unless of course you live in Lake Wobegon. ;-)

stuckinlimbo · May 8, 2006, 5:49pm

I recently took part in the grand college admissions process, and thus I feel more qualified than some of the parents on CC to discuss this. It is interesting that this thread’s debate is being played out in such a visible forum, as I was debating the same thing in April. There was also an article in The Washington Post Magazine asking whether the price of the education is worth it.

My college decision basically came down to Swarthmore, small elite liberal arts college that the masses are unlikely to ever hear of, and Penn State, huge state school with fantastic honors program, lots of alum connections, and immediate mass recognition. In spite of the fact that I would have received an EXCELLENT education at PSU, been given FANTASTIC opportunities at a big school (that I would be unable to get at a small school), and in the Honors program would have met other AMAZING students, Swarthmore was the right choice for ME. Note ME is capitalized, since I know many other brilliant people attending the state flagship university (MD) for financial reasons.

Swarthmore will:

be an ideal stepping stone to grad school (probably an easier step than from PSU)
be more flexible outside of my major, so I will thrive there (within any of the departments)
be more accessible, in reference to the professors (so I will not get brushed off by the PhD completely uninterested in teaching undergrads)
be a more socially conscious place, and I will be positively affected by the level of social awareness
be intense academically and socially (after four years, I will be stronger overall)
prepare me to solve problems, not just teach me facts
provide a more versatile ecucation in the ever-changing job market
offer me connections to an overwhelming number of stimulating and upward-bound peers
have a plethora of activities to excel in that I cannot even begin to imagine

One of the main considerations was - What kind of person do I want to be in four years? After all, those four years will shape my identity and outlook on life. My time would be best spent at a place I love, and if that means that people mistakenly think I am going to some small all-women’s college in NY (Skidmore), or believe that I am stupid for going somewhere they have never heard of, so be it. Swarthmore is a low-profile top LAC where students go to pursue their passions and actually EARN THEIR GRADES the old-fashioned way - hard work and understanding concepts and material completely.

Cami215 · May 8, 2006, 6:13pm

I have just finished reading this thread, and my poor head is spinning. I don’t think it’s clear what we are talking about here.

In her first post, Northstarmom refers to “students and their parents who aspire to HPYS and similar educations.” Throughout the thread, other posters make allusions to “elite colleges”, a term that’s never defined. About three-quarters of the examples given refer to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, contrasting the Ivy experience with campus life at state universities; another third of the posts mentions a wider array of private instititutions, both LAC’s and research universities in the top 50 (?) or so.

I don’t think you can discuss this topic without defining terms. Exactly what do people mean by “HYPS and similar educations” or “elite colleges”? At times when I read this thread, I have the impression that we’re really talking about is an Ivy education (with perhaps a few strays like Williams or Amherst thrown in) rather than the wider body of private colleges, most of whom now charge $40,000 plus. Are we saying that the upper Ivies, or the Ivies as a whole, provide a unique experience that cannot be duplicated because of the vibrant nature of their student bodies (with perhaps the exception of a few very top tier LACs)?

What about schools like Georgetown, Emory, U Chicago, Rice, Carnegie Mellon, or Northwestern (all in the top 25 research unis)? Do these schools also have a vibrant student body, or does this vibrancy diminish somewhat as we slide down the greasy pole that USNWR has provided for us? And what about publics like U Cal Berkelee, UM, U Va.? Admittedly the price tag is less for instate but OOS students will still be paying above $30,000. So are these schools to be included in the elite group that parents and students are stretching their pockets to attend?

Yes, you can tell from my tone that I’m not comfortable with the broad based stereotypes that I feel underlie this thread. It seems to me that that, if you take the top 50 schools in both the LAC and the research uni categories of USNWR, you have such diversity in terms of campus life and students that it defies the type of generalizations we’ve been making. Even within the Ivies, the differences are considerable. Dartmouth, Columbia, and Harvard attract different students with different interests. Yes, it’s possible to argue that you’ll have more students with higher SAT scores and grades at the top end of the USNWR schools, but that difference seems to be shrinking as state schools foster honors colleges and other privates vie for top students with merit aid. Just look at the experience on this board. We have plenty of examples of students turning down Ivies or other supposedly higher ranked colleges, generally for financial reasons and sometimes for considerations of “fit”.

Moreover, I’m not so sure that high SATS and GPAs automatically translate into the most intriguing or imaginative students. The most “exciting” school I ever attended was a small relatively unknown LAC in the middle of the midwest (Kalamazoo) where the kids exhibited incredible passion. Maybe it was the time–the late sixties when everything you did seemed fraught with incredible meaning–or maybe it was the amazing opportunities for internships and study abroad, but those students seemed more vibrant than any I later saw at Brown, Emory, or JHU where I attended grad school. In terms of imagination and creativity, my gut feeling is that you can find an interesting mix of students at a school like Hampshire, which technically could be described as a second tier LAC according to the US News ranking. And, as far as teaching goes, the most amazing kids I ever taught were at a small predominently black school in Georgia. Almost all were first generation college students. They were from poor, rural backgrounds; some grew up in shacks with dirt floors. Their gumption and drive were the equal of any Ivy students I’ve seen.

As far as the $40,000 a year price tag goes, that is no longer unique to first tier schools. Plenty of second tier and even some third tier privates sport such a price tag or close to it. Someone has mentioned this before but it merits saying again. I don’t care about prestige or networking. What matters is fit. My son and daughter are very different in what they need. It is likely I will be paying $40,000 a year or more to send my daughter to a small, supportive college. It will not be one of those schools deemed “most vibrant” according to the criteria listed in this thread. But you can bet your boots I will be looking carefully at it, probably even more closely than was true for our son, to be sure it has an active campus life and that she will be surrounded by kids who value something more than parties and drinking.

Sorry Northstarmom. On one level, you are right. But on another, the thread is based on vast generalizations that I’m just not comfortable with.

Anhydrosis2000 · May 8, 2006, 6:22pm

You hit the nail on the head with the following paragraph in your initial post:

“Incidentally, I’m a Harvard grad who is glad that I went to Harvard. What has stood me well for a lifetime is the exposure to such fascinating peers who felt that they could do anything. Their hubris about being willing to try anything, and Harvard’s allowing them to do that, broadened my perspective forever about what’s possible for me and others. I also left Harvard with a lifetime commitment to community service, something that virtually all students there do by choice.”

My dad is a “corporate lawyer” and an officer for a Fortune 500 company. However, he went to a no-name liberal arts school that had an Oxford overseas program for the top seniors at his college. He felt he grew intellectually by having “fascinating peers” and the experience made him realize he could do just about anything he wanted. He is a firm believer that peers of this caliber are hard to come by and truly make a difference in one’s education. He wanted me to go to a “top 25” school in my chosen field, not only because of better job prospects, but to get the best education available by having the experience he had during part of his senior year during all four years of my college experience. He loves to quote from Proverbs 27:17, “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.”

I made a last minute decision to switch from my state’s flagship school to go to a top school to increase my job prospects nationwide (even though I may end up in my mid-western home state), but more importantly to challenge myself by being around smart people all the time. Fortunately, money was not a real driver in my decision process. I know many students don’t have this flexibility, especially the $50,000 to $100,000 income families who have saved.

SBmom · May 8, 2006, 6:23pm

Cami, good post-- I think since ‘our’ day (& NSM’s day) the number of “elite” schools has grown WELL beyond Ivy and AWS. The schools you names all seem pretty elite to me; and I agree completely that a school like Hampshire can be MORE exciting and inspirational-- to a kid who fits at Hampshire-- than HYP.

Finally some kids are very internally driven and will thrive absolutely anywhere.

Northstarmom · May 8, 2006, 6:39pm

“What about schools like Georgetown, Emory, U Chicago, Rice, Carnegie Mellon, or Northwestern (all in the top 25 research unis)?”

I personally can’t attest to the atmosphere of such colleges because I’ve never attended one nor had a close connection with one. Perhaps some of the alum (such as the one who PMed me) would give their perspective about the lifetime advantages of attending such a place.

“Moreover, I’m not so sure that high SATS and GPAs automatically translate into the most intriguing or imaginative students.”

I don’t think that anyone ever said that the above is correct. What I and perhaps some others have said is that the very top colleges have the luxury of selecting from their overabundance of applicants with high stats the ones who also demonstrate the characteristics of pursuing ECs with passion, creativity, leadership and talent.

This is not the bulk of the students in the country with high stats.

There also are students without high stats who are creative, are leaders, etc. but they would not get accepted to the most selective colleges because they lack the organizational skills, motivation or other characteristics that would allow them to graduate. (I have at last one kid who’s like this. He passionately pursues whatever interests him, but he also ignores academics that don’t interest him.).

So, the question remains, what are the lifetime advantages of attending top schools (however you define "top schools) with high price tags (the latter was implied, but not stated in my original post)? Would these advantages make it worth it to you or your student to, for instance, borrow $40,000 or more to fund that undergrad education?

I don’t think that there’s a payoff when it comes to being successful as defined by one’s eventual career or possible earnings. I think that a student who’s talented enough to get into a very top ranked school has the smarts and personality to get into professional school or obtain other types of academic achievements that would help them get into what many would view as highly respected, very lucrative careers.

With the exception of possibly places like big East Coast cities like Boston, NYC, Washington, Philly, I don’t think that going to a place like an Ivy will be more of a door opener or provide a better network than would State Flagship U (which depending on where one lives, may be the best door opener and way to get connections).

From what some have posted here, paying the extra money to go to pricey top university may be worth it if there’s a better fit for the student than the alternative. This includes for students who flourish better in an atmosphere in which there are a majority of peers who not only are smart and academically included, but who also pursue ECs with an equal amount of passion.

Some also have said that for some, bragging rights can make the extra $ worth it. The shot of confidence that some get by going to a top school and surviving or thriving in that experience also is worth it for some.

On the other hand, others might flourish in a less competitive college where they are the big fish in the small pond and where professors would be more likely to mentor them than is likely to occur in some of the top universities that emphasize research more than teaching.

As for me, would I have chosen to go to a pricey top university if I had to take out $40,000 in loans as some CC students and parents have posted about doing? I probably would not have. I think that I would have chosen to go to a less competitive college that wouldn’t have left me in such debt for undergrad. I would have set my sites on excelling there, and would have focused on going to a more competitive place for grad school (and getting the fellowships that would have paid my way!).

While I got a lot out of my undergrad Ivy experience, for me, the payoff would not have been worth $40,000 (a $20,000 loan would have been wroth it) or more. It’s interesting for me to see how others view this dilemma, which is very real for many families (but in the case of my own kids’ situations, is only hypothetical because they don’t have the gpas to get into the very top colleges).

sjmom2329 · May 8, 2006, 6:46pm

H and I felt that the kind of students our son would spend time with would influence his outlook in college, and opted to send him to the Ivy we felt was best for him. (Incidentally, this wasn’t the highest ranked school to which he was accepted.)

We both graduated from a very good public U, and H has a master’s degree from a different public U. His career has been very successful in his field, but I do think he has had to prove himself again each time he has changed positions or companies. I think that graduates of better ranked schools are given a first pass. It also depends on the type of company or business. His current employer seems to place more value on the alma mater, but that’s due to the nature of consulting work. I think our son will have it easier, whichever path he chooses. He may end up in academia, where I think the school name WILL matter.

garland · May 8, 2006, 7:02pm

“And what about publics like U Cal Berkelee, UM, U Va”

Cami, check my post 10, way back on the first page. Others may see “elite” as HYPS, but I have no doubt I got the kind of experience NSM was talking about at Michigan. That’s why I think it’s important.

monydad · May 8, 2006, 8:08pm

To clarify one point regarding my post #6, since some subsequent posters have made reference:

I mentioned some “advantages” I’ve perceived.

However, I did NOT say that these “advantages”, such as they are, are material in nature, or sufficient reasons to select such schools. Actually I think the advantages I have perceived are quite trivial.

In the meantime many other good points have been raised by others, of varying importance.

There are/were some disadvantages as well, which this thread has not even raised. The tremendous academic pressure I witnessed had several undesirable side-effects.
Such as:

Some courses that may be interesting and educational often avoided, because too much work & too much competition from those fellow-classmates who need to be obsessed with the particular subject to meet their own post-grad objectives. Thereby narrowing one’s educational scope, rather than expanding it. At a lesser school, this course would have been taken.
Stress of not being “top dog”, and even fighting for academic survival in an highly competitive atmosphere.
Increased difficulty in standing out from the pack there means no special research opportunities, etc; at the weaker school these might be yours, ironically.
Level of academic focus tends to DECREASE extracurricular involvement, actually, vs. what these same motivated individuals might have pursued in an academically less all-encompassing school.
Reduced self-confidence if you do relatively not-so-good in this highly competitive environment, vs. the confidence gained from being at the top at an easier school.

soozievt · May 8, 2006, 8:35pm

Cami…just to clarify…if I used the term “elite” or “highly selective colleges”, I was not just refering to the Ivy League, though realize not everyone here is refering to the same thing. For me, I just meant colleges that have pretty low admit rates and are competitive to get into…not absolute cut off but in a general sense, in my own little mind…I think of Ivies…schools like Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, Duke, Pomona, Stanford, MIT, Wesleyan, Swarthmore, Georgetown, Berkeley, Vassar, Tufts, and many many more that are tough to get into and attract very competitive candidates. Even so, I still think there can be many top students at much less selective schools but they tend to not make up the entire student body as much as at schools that are very selective to be admitted to.

Also, while I wrote this in my first post way back in the thread…for me, my discussion was not tied to money. The worth of the education and which school my kids went to was not tied to the cost. As mentioned, I’d have paid $40,000 for a top tier OR for a much lower tier school…no difference. I don’t see my kids’ schools worth more money if they are more selective. I just wanted them to go to schools that met their criteria that they realy wanted to attend and where they would thrive and be happy. They got that. It is kinda priceless, lol. But the price tag didn’t matter in relation to the selectivity or “ranking” of the college. I’d have paid the same for them to thrive, learn and be happy at less selective schools. Their schools, even if very selective, are not worth more tuitiion but are just worth more in terms of better fit for their needs and what they wanted in a learning environment. I don’t think I am paying more for it necessarily. I could pay as much for a less “elite” school and think it was just as worth the price tag.

TheGFG · May 8, 2006, 9:00pm

As in the analogy above, let’s say Plain Jane gets lucky and is admitted to an Ivy. She’s smart, motivated, has very good stats and some decent EC’s, including a varsity sport. But she is not truly brilliant, she’s not nationally ranked in any pursuit, and while she may be mildly passionate about a hobby or two, if she had a full course load she would probably not work for 30 hours a week on the newspaper for the pure joy of it. Let’s say she is reasonably confident, but is used to being one of small pack of top dogs at her HS. Would you recommend she attend a HPYS school anyway, or would she come to feel inadequate? Would the atmosphere drain her, such as in the tuning fork example posted? In other words, how special do you have to be to fit in at, let’s say, Princeton? If a student hasn’t discovered some rare gene in a mutant fruit fly or something would she feel too average? How about if she is nationally ranked but in a sport–not something academic?

dstark · May 8, 2006, 9:14pm

1) People who don’t know you personally will presume that you are smart.

Monydad, that statement you made isn’t trivial to me. I think it is one of the key reasons people seek out the elite schools.

I want my kids to be as perceived as smart, by people they know well, and by people that barely know them. I want people to perceive my kids as smart no matter how stupid they can be. :)

dstark · May 8, 2006, 9:17pm

TheGFG, I don’t see too many people flunking out of the IVYs.

calmom · May 8, 2006, 9:33pm

I haven’t read the whole thread (sorry) – but my personal experience as a UC graduate living in California is that UC gives me great connections. As a lawyer I often have worked with judges and opposing counsel who attended my alma mater, including many who were classmates – and I know that many major firms in the area hire primarily from my law school.

I have no clue as to what it would mean if I left the state. However, one problem with law as career choice in general is that it’s hard to relocate - each state has their own bar exam and a somewhat different set of statutes and case law that must be studied and mastered, so it’s probably best for prospective lawyers to think about where they want to end up even before they start law school.

Eagle79 · May 8, 2006, 9:42pm

dstark,

I am sorry but I think it is more important to be smart than perceived as smart but not be able to back it up. Smart at what is a whole 'nother story. I know that I have done a lot of less than smart things. My kids are also at the age where they think that their parents are not that brights. I understand that they change their perception in a few years. ;-)

dstark · May 8, 2006, 9:48pm

“I am sorry but I think it is more important to be smart than perceived as smart but not be able to back it up.”

I never said it wasn’t.

A friend of mine who is very bright (He’s a former CEO. My mentioning the title helps make the point. ), said he knew he had the abilities to succeed, he wondered if he would get the chance. Perception helps give you the chance.

Eagle79 · May 8, 2006, 10:08pm

Dstark,

True enough. It supports notion of “perception is reality”.

The trouble I have is whether the perception is fair or not. For example, most of the “elites” say that they could have admitted 3 or 4 classes qualified students however they could only accept 1. What of the other students and our perception of them? What of the legacy benefit of applying to some schools? Should those students benefit from the perception associated with those schools? What of the students discriminated against in the past like those written about in “The Chosen”?

Over time I suspect the issue will go away as education becomes more democratized through online classes, i.e. Harvard Extension online classes, MIT OpenCourseWare initiative, etc. Then more people can benefit from the brand name education.

What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

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