What are the Lifetime Advantages of Attending Top Colleges

Parents Forum
101

<p>“As in the analogy above, let’s say Plain Jane gets lucky and is admitted to an Ivy. She’s smart, motivated, has very good stats and some decent EC’s, including a varsity sport. But she is not truly brilliant, she’s not nationally ranked in any pursuit, and while she may be mildly passionate about a hobby or two, if she had a full course load she would probably not work for 30 hours a week on the newspaper for the pure joy of it. Let’s say she is reasonably confident, but is used to being one of small pack of top dogs at her HS. Would you recommend she attend a HPYS school anyway, or would she come to feel inadequate? Would the atmosphere drain her, such as in the tuning fork example posted? In other words, how special do you have to be to fit in at, let’s say, Princeton? If a student hasn’t discovered some rare gene in a mutant fruit fly or something would she feel too average? How about if she is nationally ranked but in a sport–not something academic?”</p>

<p>I think this kind of question is pretty individual. If you are a standout at home and then attend a top college, you are going to be among many accomplished kids like yourself (different areas of interest though) and you likely are NOT going to stand out anymore. However, for some kids…this is very stimulating and they crave being around those with similar levels of motivation and they find it challenging to be in such a crowd. For others, it is a rude awakening to not stand out so much anymore. Some care, some don’t. It is just different than high school. Also every colllege has a different atmosphere. For instance, my D would say that Brown, where she attends, is not competitive…everyone knows everyone else is accomplished and they admire it and they collaborate and help each other, rather than compete against each other. There isn’t any one upmanship. My other D is in one of the top programs in her field (the BFA in Musical Theater at NYU/Tisch) and now is amongst so many highly talented kids that just getting cast in something there is a major accomplishment because every kid is very talented and stood out in their local communities before getting to the college. Some crave being around other very talented people and some could feel insecure or might prefer being in a place where they can still be top dog like back in HS. Each person has to think that kind of thing through. I know my kids do not feel “inadequate” at their schools…they hold their own…but they surely know they ain’t the best there. There are a lot more kids like them now in their school, compared to HS. </p>

<p>You asked how special you have to be to “fit in” at a place like Princeton. My kids don’t go to Princeton (one of my kids was waitlisted there so I have been there) but they are in selective environments. They fit in great. They may come from a very different background or place than many of the diverse kids they are meeting but it doesn’t seem to matter because they have lots in common in the fact that they chose the same college and have some similar interests and so forth. Their college friends are a different sort of crowd in terms of background and even accomplishments than many of their home friends but they like both sets a lot, but they are just different kinds of kids. Fitting in has not been a problem at all. Kids don’t walk around with their credentials on their sleeve. They are simply kids who hold similar passions, interests, motivations, whatever. Also, my kids wanted diverse student bodies and that is different than home as well where their entire high school was white (though there was economic diversity). </p>

<p>Lastly, my kids do not feel “average” at their colleges. They fit in just fine. They are not “lesser” than their peers there. They may not stand out but they hold their own plenty. They are doing well academically and in their EC pursuits. They are not king of the hill but they are not lost souls who are struggling. They are thriving. It really isn’t about being better than anyone else but just being amongst those who continue to stimulate and challenge you on your level and with whom you have things in common and sometimes nothing in common but a chance to meet a wide variety of people. The other kids at college are a BIG part of the experience of going to their colleges. By the way, my kids came from a no name rural public high school and that background is quite different than many of the college kids they are meeting but it just doesn’t come up much. Others accept them just fine. I even have a kid who is quite a bit younger than her college peers as she entered college at 16 but is accepted and many don’t realize how much younger she is, though eventually many learned it after the fact of becoming friends. My kids won’t forget their roots but they are now mixed in with a much more diverse group of kids, which frankly was part of wanting a selective college…to be in such a setting, which they would not have had at our state university which is a very good school otherwise. Meeting kids from all over and such different backgrounds is part of the experience. </p>

<p>Everyone wants different things. My kids are risk takers. They go off easily to new places with new people. Both are in cities. One is in Manhattan. Her dorm has almost as many residents as our town, LOL. But it really is an individual thing with respect to the questions you raised and I can only relate my kids’ experiences. Actually, their experiences mirror my own when I went to a selective school. I loved the stimulation and the variety of kids. Being top dog didn’t matter. I loved the kind of student body that came with a selective school. It was way different than my high school.</p>

102

<p>Eagle79, my viewpoint is similar to yours. I like your post #84.</p>

<p>I don’t know what it is like to live in or near a major city in the east coast. Everyone must walk around with name tags with the name of their alma mater on their lapels. :)</p>

103

<p>As a current Cornell undergrad…I’d say that I notice a very big influance on my life already as a result of my affiliation with Cornell.</p>

<p>When I interviewed for my summer internship, the interviewer told me the last two students to have the position were from Cornell, and they liked what they received. </p>

<p>Also, the alumni network, at least in my area is fantastic. As someone who is interested in medicine, it can come in really handy. For instance, I’d like to shadow a doctor next winter break…I don’t know if I’ll be able to do it yet, but a doctor happened to have done their undergrad at Cornell, and started reminising about his time on the hill. At the very least, it gives us a conversation topic to break the ice.</p>

<p>My best friends are also very bright people, and while I don’t make friends for “networking”, odds are at least a few of my friends will be prominant people in the future…not to mention, it’s so much easier to do well when everyone around you is striving to do well too.</p>

<p>Cornell has a graduating class of approximately 13,000…so there are a lot of alums out there, many whom are very prominant people who have some connection with you.</p>

<p>I just focused on alumni networking, because that seemed like a topic of discussion on the first page of the post.</p>

<p>Also, who says an ivy league education has to cost more?</p>

<p>I was able to cover most of my contribution to Cornell with outside scholarship. </p>

<p>I also know that Princeton has a loan free financial aid program, they will not have anyone take out any loans at all.</p>

<p>The members of the ivy league have large endowments…they can afford to give students good financial aid, and in some cases cost less than a state school, and the resources are fantastic. The facilities are great, and the schools attract the best in many different fields to teach, or even just guest lecture. I’ve been really impressed with my teachers, but I’ve also been very impressed with guest lecturers.</p>

<p>I’ve heard Professor Robert H. Grubbs, nobel laureate 2005, lecture on his research, Steve Maas (who coined the term “Power Nap” and is an expert on sleep research) lecture on brain function during sleep, Al Bandura talk about his theory of Observational Learning, Bill Nye the Science Guy lecture about global warming, Professor Squyres, head of the Mars rover project talk about water on mars, and John Clease give a presentation of Peter and the wolf. . . .and I’ve only been here for a year.</p>

<p>Yes, it might cost a little more to attend, but the experiences that you’ll have, the friends you’ll make, and that things you learn are worth the added cost.</p>

104

<p>Cornell is big, but not that big.</p>

<p>The graduating class is 3,000+. There are 13,000 undergrads total.</p>

<p>I agree with Monydad that the great advantage of Ivy degrees is that people assume you are smart. Over time, you have to prove them right. But at least you may get the opportunity to do that.</p>

105

<p>–Strange ideas. I can’t imagine having a lasting concern about where I went to school or who is impressed by the school’s name. I can’t imagine being concerned about someone deciding I am smart based on a school’s name.–</p>

<p>Ha! All that’s missing is, “You can marry up, or go out with finer chicks, if you go to _____.” (Like Harvard students notoriously talk about dropping the H bomb…)</p>

106

<p>I don’t pick my friends by where they’ve gone to college. I have friends I admire and love from notorious party schools as well as very elite colleges. In fact, the person I’d pick to run my company (if I had one) went to a middling state u. This is not about being hung up on where I went to school a thousand years ago.</p>

<p>But when interviewing for jobs, many things count. Some employers care about the right look, some care about where you last worked, and some love to hire Ivy League graduates. It’s true. Of course you have to prove yourself–this is about getting the job offer in the first place.</p>

107

<p>–Or maybe elite colleges are more like the New York Times. Once the “paper of record”, it is now a bastion of bias with dramatically declining readership and ad revenue.–</p>

<p>The honest, unvarnished truth about the NY Times is that only the worst of birds deserve it to line their cages!</p>

108

<p>GFG, that kid would have to visit the school in question and see about the fit. It is so individual. </p>

<p>I would have described myself pretty similarly to your example kid, although probably a bit more confident. (NOT nationally ranked in any sport though.)</p>

<p>H was not appealing to me, as it felt more like a continued, and even steeper, uphill climb with even more competitive intensity, rather than a whole new pressure-off, redefine-myself world (which is what I wanted college to be.) P was very appealing. I didn’t visit Yale because I made the assumption it would be like H. Liked Dartmouth general atmosphere, but not macho-ness & isolation. Liked Cornell ok. Didn’t consider Penn (not even sure I knew Penn was an ivy at the time!). I would probably have liked Stanford, only my parents lived in the same State, so I didn’t visit or apply ;)</p>

<p>Went to Brown and it was a great experience. I loved feeling like lots of people were as smart or smarter, but nobody was rubbing anyone’s face in it or keeping track. The other schools I liked best after Brown were Amherst and Wesleyan.</p>

109

<p>Did anyone mention recruiting? The “first job” advantage is not just the beauty of the elite school syllables rolling around in the mind of the resume reader, but because lots of fancy organizations love to recruit at the elite schools (Caltech, MIT, JHU, Ivies, etc.) - not just corporations, but Federal, Wall Street, and so on. [And BTW - the Federal government is dying for motivated bright young talent - the early boomers, and soon the mid and late boomers, are retiring - great deal if you get in early]. An initial position at a well known organization sets up the resume nicely for the next job, and if the individual is a doer, the career path is eased - surely lasting value.</p>

110

<p>haha, thanks for catching my typo, red shoes…wow, can you imagine Cornell four times it’s existing size? I’m so used to telling people there are 13,000 undergrads here that the number slips out in the wrong places sometimes…yeah, so 3000 per graduating class, not 13,000 :)</p>

111

<p>With regards to B-school, a primary admission criteria is job-experience, including the nature of the job. As an undergraduate fresh out of college, you’ve got the best shot of landing the top jobs after graduating from HYPMS, if only because of heavy recruiting by I-banks and consulting companies.</p>

<p>That’s not to say it’s impossible to get such jobs from State U, or to land that B-School admission; it’s just harder.</p>

<p>Here, for example, are the undergraduate institution and the number of students they sent to the Wharton MBA class in 2004:

</h1>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=14783[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=14783&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There’s also a lot more to life and to career success than a great MBA, but in many fields (again, consulting and I-banking come to mind), the boost is fairly decent.</p>

112

<p>I would have to say posts 109 and 111 do a very good job of highlighting one of the main advantages. </p>

<p>For a top student who is planning to go into finance, business, management, etc. going to a top college opens doors both to job opportunities (at first) and B-school.</p>

113

<p>When you guys talk about “State Schools” are you also talking about top-tier UCs? Because although there state schools they are much more prestigious than other “regular” state schools.</p>

114

<p>CautiousPessimism,</p>

<p>Often the highest paid jobs directly out of school are engineering jobs. the “elite” name brand schools are not as well known in this field. However, that is back to focusing on money as the criterea. If that is the crieterea then the Krueger and Dale would apply. that study shows that it is the student, not the school that makes the difference.</p>

115

<p>If someone is interested in going into academia, here’s some interesting stats from the Reed webpage:</p>

<p><a href=“http://web.reed.edu/ir/phd.html[/url]”>http://web.reed.edu/ir/phd.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

116

<p>For any student considering law school, where you go to college can make a tremendous difference. </p>

<p>In my experience in law, if you want to enter a competitive field or want to work for a sought after employer (e.g. big national/international law firms, patent law, corporate law (securities, M&A, investment management), high profile complex litigation, many public interest positions, and many others, particularly in big cities), you may find it difficult to get your foot in the door without a “name brand” school on your resume, regardless of your work experience since law school. In fact, you can expect to be routinely asked for your SAT and LSAT scores when you apply to these kinds of jobs, even 10 years into your career. Competition is stiff. Of course, “name brand” schools are not limited to the ivies, but having a name like Harvard or Columbia behind you can’t hurt. </p>

<p>For example, my company recently hired a mid-level attorney for a generalist position (meaning a well-rounded background with ability to learn on the fly), and we received no less than 250 resumes for the job. There were enough candidates among the mass of resumes that we interviewed only those who attended both top 20 colleges and top 20 law schools. Yes, of course work experience mattered also, but those candidates tended to have better work experience too. We didn’t interview another forty or so candidates who had similarly stellar credentials. That’s not to say that there weren’t talented candidates that we likely overlooked, but we certainly didn’t have the time or the staff to interview fifty or more candidates. For better or worse, employers often use the the college and the law school that you attended as a proxy for intelligence, drive and ability, particularly when you really need to hire someone who will face a steep learning curve once they are in the door. </p>

<p>In a competitive world, every advantage helps.</p>

117

<p>Sally, when our son was making his college selection last month, we had the choice between a good LAC which gave great merit money and financial aid, or either of two Ivies with not-so-great FA which would entail substantial student and parental debt. We weren’t sure what to do. Among regular folks and people on CC, the opinions fell equally on each side of the debate about how much an Ivy education is worth. However, when we asked lawyers for their opinion, all strongly advised going into whatever debt is necessary to attend the elite school.</p>

118

<p>GFG:</p>

<p>Were the lawyers clear why they thought this? Was it just a matter of reputation (name, etc.), or did they think the elites offerred a better educational experience (like better students, etc.)?</p>

119

<p>For professions in law, medicine ,business-- I accept the expert opinions that undergrad school-- if elite – counts heavily. But in academia, the quality of your Ph.D. program , your professors’ reputations, your grad school performance-- all of these far outweigh any disadvantage from a less well-known, non-elite undergrad college. However, in your first year of graduate study, those who were Ivy undergrads are automatically considered “smart”–all others have to prove themselves. And in my experience–many of them do so admirably.</p>

120

<p>TheGFG,
I have to agree with the opinions given to you by the lawyers. The loans may seem overwhelming, but they will pay off for a lifetime. I know, since I put myself through both college and law school. </p>

<p>I have fantastic work experience and I think that I’m a darn good lawyer, but the schools that I attended have opened doors for me throughout my career. I wouldn’t change any of the educational choices that I’ve made. I believe (and I hope) that I would have been successful in my chosen career no matter what, but I had a lot more opportunities with top schools on my resume than I would have had otherwise. I don’t come from a family with a known name, connections or wealth (and, let’s be honest, those help), and I’m so thankful that I haven’t had to kick down doors. Of course, being successful on the job is a function of your drive and intelligence, and I wouldn’t have been successful without more than a little bit of each, but the top schools on my resume are the keys that have repeatedly unlocked a world of opportunities for me.
Sally</p>