What are US top 7 universities good at?

<p>paul: I agree in graduate level H,S,B monopolize the top 3 spots in many many fields. The others schools MPPDY are usually a level below these. With the exception of certain programs like some engineering/sciences are dominated by MIT & CIT while business is also populated by schools like Wharton, Kellogg, & UChicago. </p>

<p>On the UG level though there is barely any difference between the educational quality of all these schools. People should chose between them based on preferences not ranking (as many people sadly do).</p>

<p>Paulhomework says “However, on the undergrad level, the difference between all those schools (with the exception of Berkeley) becomes miniscule.” </p>

<p>Spoken like a true tree!</p>

<p>^ LOL. C’mon Berkeley is awesome! It’s engineering is on par with Stanford, but other than that, it doesn’t have the resources to compete with very top privates. Nevertheless, I would have DEFINITELTY gone to Berkeley if the out of state chancellor scholarship i got was much better than my stanford fin aid.</p>

<p>Stanford is awesome too. And yes, stanford’s engineering is on par with Berkeley’s, but other than that I can’t really think of anything that you guys have that can compete with us. Certainly not you football team…or your location…or business school…or school history…oh, I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Yes, you have advisors that will drink milk and cookies with you and talk about how scary college is, but we’ve got a social scene, so we’re not sweating it either!</p>

<p>bern: I meant Penn is <em>only</em> top-notch in Business, which is because of Wharton, but apparently isn’t top-notch in anything else.</p>

<p>Penn is only stellar in business??? Have you ever heard of Louis Kahn and Ian McHarg?</p>

<p>to the OP,</p>

<p>what you’ve found out are the best universities in america (and the world). the ones you’ve ranked and listed are the best. but you ranked graduate and professional programs, which aren’t necessarily correlated or even offered with their undergraduate programs. </p>

<p>there’s US News rankings of undergrad, and there’s also US News rankings of graduate programs. they are not meant to overlap. most of us here would agree that berkeley blows a bunch of schools out of the water when it comes to graduate programs, but that’s not necessarily the case when it comes to undergrad. on the flip side, dartmouth and brown (you might’ve heard of those) are ranked high, but if u applied all your graduate and professional categories to them, then they’re known for almost nothing. </p>

<p>the shanghai and london rankings for the most part confirm what you’ve listed/ranked.</p>

<p>this is not meant to support the US News rankings, but to help you understand why you might’ve been confused with US News.</p>

<p>I think you guys are putting too much emphasis on the difference between undergraduate and graduate education. Yes, there are difference, but they are very subtle and mostly cosmetic. Sure Cal is better at the graduate level than at the graduate level. Cal is a top 3 graduate program in the World. It is not much of a stretch to imagine that its undergraduate program is not better. That’s because you cannot be better than top 3 in the World. But Cal is still a top 10 undergraduate institution in the US. So yes, relative to its graduate programs, Cal’s undergraduate programs are not quite as strong, but to believe that Cal’s undergraduate programs are measurably weaker than its graduate programs is ignorance. </p>

<p>By and large, a top graduate program will automatically mean a top undergraduate program. The curriculum is almost identical, only slightly less in-depth and the professors and environment are usually the same. There are very few exceptions to the rule, most notably LACs, which do not have graduate programs in the first place. But LACs should be rated separately from research universities since they have difference stengths and weaknesses and provide a significantly difference experience.</p>

<p>People who say that graduate and undergraduate ratings are completely different are either concealing a darker agenda or are blindly and unquestionably regurgitating what others are saying. </p>

<p>I for one agree that Cal is not quite as strong as H,M,P,S and Y at the undergraduate level. But ranking Cal out of the top 10 is laughable.</p>

<p>I don’t really think undergrads would get benefit from the great professors at the relatively low level (BA) at which undergrads work.</p>

<p>It’s all pretty equal at this point</p>

<p>At the low levels, a student does not require professor assistance. And if you think students at Chicago, MIT and Harvard get more professor assistance than students at Cal, you are sadly mistaken. So I agree with you Johnny, at the lowest level, the material is quite basic and straightforward and does not require nobel-prize winning faculty to instruct students on the rudiments.</p>

<p>I’ll drink to that.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Not according to US News:
Econ is #9 (-1).
English is # 10 (-2).
BME is #6 (-1).
MatSci is 15 (-5).</p>

<p>Can’t find the rest in US News. I do know that as far as “music” goes, most aspiring musicians don’t look at this NRC ranking. It’s for music as a liberal arts major focusing on musical history…etc (musicology). Note how Julliard, Curtis, Eastman are not there while Indiana and Northwestern are ranked a lot lower than they would be if it’s music as performing arts.</p>

<p>This is rubbish.</p>

<p>“On the graduate level, Harvard, Stanford, and Berkeley blow Penn, Duke, Princeton, and Yale out of this world.”</p>

<p>The only difference between any of these schools on the graduate school level is their size. Harvard, Stanford and Berkeley are all much larger than Princeton, Yale, MIT, Caltech and even then, there is not a huge difference in the overall strength of these graduate departments. Take a look at the most recent NRC rankings (which imo are a far better rankings system than USNews but I doubt USNews’s results are significantly different) if you must (<a href=“http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/publications/pdf/nrc_rankings_1995.pdf):%5B/url%5D”>http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/publications/pdf/nrc_rankings_1995.pdf):</a></p>

<p>Universities with Highest
Number of Programs in the Top 10

  1. Berkeley 35
  2. Stanford 31
  3. Harvard 26
  4. Princeton 22
  5. MIT 20
  6. Cornell 19
  7. Yale 19
  8. Chicago 18
  9. Penn 15
  10. UC San Diego 14
  11. Columbia 14
  12. Michigan 14
  13. Wisconsin 14</p>

<p>Universities with Highest
Number of “Distinguished” Programs

  1. Berkeley 32
  2. Stanford 28
  3. Harvard 25
  4. Princeton 24
  5. MIT 20
  6. Cornell 19
  7. Yale 19
  8. Columbia 18
  9. Michigan 15
  10. Caltech 14
  11. UC San Diego 14
  12. Penn 14
  13. UCLA 14</p>

<p>Ranking of Program Faculty
Arts and Humanities

  1. Berkeley
  2. Princeton
  3. Harvard
  4. Columbia
  5. Yale
  6. Cornell</p>

<p>Biological Sciences

  1. UCSF
  2. MIT
  3. UCSD
  4. Stanford
  5. Yale
  6. Harvard
  7. Berkeley</p>

<p>Engineering

  1. MIT
  2. Berkeley
  3. Caltech
  4. Stanford
  5. Cornell</p>

<p>Physical Sciences
and Mathematics

  1. Berkeley
  2. MIT
  3. Caltech
  4. Harvard
  5. Princeton
  6. Cornell</p>

<p>Social and
Behavioral Sciences

  1. Harvard
  2. Chicago
  3. Berkeley
  4. Michigan
  5. Stanford</p>

<p>To say that Duke is only good at medicine and Penn is only good at business is completely understating the strength of the graduate programs at these schools, especially Penn’s. Harvard, Stanford and Berkeley do have the “strongest” graduate programs overall but they don’t really “blow” these schools out of the water, especially not Yale and Princeton when one takes the size of these school’s graduate departments into consideration.</p>

<p>But if you look at more recent rankings, like the USNWR, you will see that Cal, Harvard and Stanford are indeed significantly more advanced in graduate studies. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/topresearch.htm[/url]”>http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/topresearch.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Those are based on the most recent USNWR graduate rankings.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I would argue that Cal does not belong in the top 10 at the undergraduate level, even if you exclude the LAC’s (which, by the way, I think you should not). Not to say that I think that undergrad Cal is bad, but like we’ve discussed before, I think I can come up with at least 10 schools that are better at the undergraduate level. Cal is clearly a star graduate school, but Cal’s weakness is, and always has been, undergraduate education. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>And right there is one of the biggest reasons why I don’t think Cal is a top 10 undergraduate program. You just said it yourself - at the lower undergraduate level, the strength of the faculty doesn’t matter very much. What really matters at that level is the quality of the student body and the support systems provided by the school, because much of the learning will actually occur between fellow students (as a low-level undergrad, you interact with your fellow students far more than you do with profs), and how supportive is the school in providing access to resources. And, not to be harsh, but I don’t think Cal ranks as a top 10 school in those categories. Let’s be honest - there really are a lot of Cal undergraduates who are of middling quality, either in terms of talent, or motivation or both. And even the biggest Cal fanatic would have to admit that the bureaucracy is no picnic and that if you run into problems, Cal isn’t exactly the most helpful school in the world. </p>

<p>Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that Cal is terrible. It’s still pretty good, probably top 20, but to say that it’s top 10 in undergrad is a bit of a reach. </p>

<p>To all those people who think I’m just out to bash Berkeley, again I would reiterate that I have always maintained that Cal is a superstar graduate school. Great place to get your PhD. Undergrad is still pretty good. But the truth is, undergrad at Cal is clearly not as good as grad at Cal. It’s still without a doubt the best public undergrad program in the West, and arguably in the country, but the truth is, it does not match the quality of the graduate programs.</p>

<p>Just to clarify, Sakky, you say you don’t bash Cal as a whole, but you do bash it for anything that isn’t grad school related. Thats fine. You’re entitled to your oppinion. But I’d still like to say a few thing about your post. First, I wont make any claims about Cal being a top ten school or a top 15 or whatever, because the quality of ones education depends on the student and what he or she feels comfortable with and thrives in, and being that I’ve only gone to Cal I don’t feel like I have the experience to say that its better than ____ Universtiy. As Sakky pointed out, the bureaucracy at Cal is horrible. That I can attest to, but in my experience everything works its way out in the end, so I wouldn’t list that as a huge downfall of the school, more of a minor discomfort. As for the level of the students, sure there are some that you wonder how they got in, but there are a ton of brilliant people there too, so the simple answer is that you should study with the smart ones, not the dumb ones. And to say that having 50 or 100 points higher on the Sats makes you that much “smarter” is laughable to me. Sakky, are you saying that at your top ten schools that there don’t lack talent and motivation because they have slightly higher SATs? Because that’s what it comes down to. The average GPA for incoming freshman at Cal is 4.2, so to say that that many of the students are lazy is not true. Unless you’re an uber genius you’re not going to get all A’s in high school without being motivated and a hard worker. So if you’re saying that slightly higher SAT scores makes those other schools that much better than Cal then I’ll politely disagree.</p>

<p>Alexandre, at the undergraduate level, there are a number of institutions that have to be considered better than Cal simply because of student body quality and resources per student. I think Cal is appropriately ranked in US News. All 8 Ivies, Stanford, Duke, MIT, Caltech, Emory, and a variety of other instutitons provide a better undergraduate experience in all of the measures you can use to judge undergrad experience.</p>

<p>At the undergrad level Berkeley is not that much more distinguished than Michigan or UVA…</p>

<p>GS, looks like you happen to be one of the lucky ones that have never had a major run-in with the Cal bureaucracy. But believe me, there are some Cal students who have had major running battles with the bureaucracy, to having your financial aid checks become inexplicably unavailable when you need to pay the rent, to being mysteriously dropped from enrollment databases and hence being forced to miss out on a Telebears phase, to a whole host of similarly ridiculous problems.</p>

<p>Now, again, this obviously only happens to a minority of students. But that’s bad enough. It may be asking too much to never have problems happen to any students. But I think there should be safety nets to ensure that students are still taken care of when they are screwed over by the bureaucracy. For example, how about offering a temporary cash-advance system for those students whose financial aid has been mangled, so that they can at least pay the bills and not get evicted from their apartments while their aid is being sorted out? </p>

<p>Furthermore, let’s look carefully at what I said. I said that Cal could arguably be considered a top 20 undergrad program (but not top 10). Is that bashing? What’s so bad about being in the top 20? I think top 20 is pretty darn good. I know a lot of other schools, particularly the other UC’s, would like to have an undergrad program that is as strong as Cal’s. All I’m saying is that to place Cal in the top 10 of undergrad programs is a bit strong, because I think I could name 10 others that are better, even if you exclude LAC’s (which, again, I really think you shouldn’t). For example, I would argue that HYPSMC, Duke, Columbia, Penn, and Northwestern are better at the undergraduate level (again, that’s undergraduate level, not graduate level). On a more aggregate level, I think that you could say that Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Wellesley, and Pomona, as well as several other LAC’s, are better than Cal at the undergraduate level. </p>

<p>As to your contention of student quality, again, I never said that it was bad. Again, Cal clearly has the best undergraduate student body of any public school in the West, if not the country. Yet simply put, on a macro level, the average student at Cal is still not good enough to merit a top 10 designation. Still good enough for top 20, but top 10 is a reach. The real point is that Cal would do itself a great service by by either not admitting the bottom X% of its students, or if they are admitted, then getting them to work harder. The sad truth is that the bottom X% of the students are often times at the bottom not because they don’t have the talent (although some truly don’t have the talent), but rather because they don’t have the motivation and maturity to study. Again, take a walk down fraternity/sorority row during the regular semester and you will see Cal ‘students’ who haven’t studied anything for for many days, and have just been partying for several days straight. I like a good party too, but sometimes you gotta get some work done. </p>

<p>You also say that it’s just a matter of finding the strong students. Yeah, well, that’s a massive oversimplification. Often times, it’s not up to you. For example, you get randomly matched into a dorm room as a freshman, and if you happen to be surrounded by lazy students, then that’s a massively negative psychological drag to carry around. Let’s face it. It’s hard to make the choice to study when you see the people around you not studying, just like it’s hard to quit smoking when everybody around you is smoking. </p>

<p>Furthermore, let’s not discount just how much learning is done via interaction within the classroom. You’re an English major, so you should know what I’m talking about. The more people in your English discussion section saying brilliantly insightful things, the more you learn. However, the fewer there are (and consequently the more people who are not motivated, or who didn’t even bother to do the reading), the less you learn. Unfortunately, you can’t control who is in your section and who isn’t. If you happen to be in the section that has a lot of brilliant students, then you will learn more. If you happen to be in the section that has a lot of bad students, then you learn less. </p>

<p>The real point is that Cal could use some greater selectivity at the undergraduate level. Part of what makes the Cal graduate schools so great is the selectivity. It is extremely difficult to get admitted to a Cal PhD program - arguably as difficult as getting into the equivalent program at HYPSMC. On the other hand, it is clearly not as difficult to get into the Cal undergraduate program as it is to get into the undergrad programs at HYPSMC. These 2 factors are linked. If Cal wants to make its undergrad program as strong as that of HYPSMC, then Cal should employ equivalent selectivity.</p>

<p>Yaleguy, I’ve gotta admit that if Cal would give every incoming freshman an ipod (like duke) then I think the educational quality would be much, much better. And having bigger dorm rooms (like HYPS) would certainly make chem classes easier to understand. And giving away a bunch of Coke (emory) definitely makes up for the lack of distinguished profs that Cal has. But I digress. So you’re saying that going to emory or brown or duke or the “variety of other institutions” that you named would be better than Cal in engineering or business?</p>

<p>Sakky, I fully agree with what you say about the quality of students helping or hurting your education, but you skirted the issue. I want to know how 100 points on the SATs (where Cal only takes best sitting and most of the schools you named take best combined) can be the reason that Cal goes from being a top 10 to being a possible top 20 school? Compare Cal’s GPA to HYPS and tell me where the big difference is. I only see that Cal’s SATs are lower, so unless you can clear this up for me I’ll assume that the lower SATs are what make Cal students considerably lower than the others.</p>