<p>She might also ask if she can take the class pass/fail. 1 - is it too late to change? 2 - is it ok within her department?</p>
<p>Thanks, everyone. I don’t think she has taken full advantage of all the help. She did hire a tutor to help her, another student, I think. She scoffs at the idea of approaching the professor…too many students…too busy…blah blah.</p>
<p>I think she may have to stick this one out because if she withdraws, she will be part time, I think and I don’t know how that would effect her housing, etc.</p>
<p>I hate to see her give up but I don’t want to keep encouraging her if she is going to struggle down the road, as well.</p>
<p>I looked on her Bio dept. website and I think this would be the last orgo class. Then there is something called General chem and energetics. No idea what that is. Anyone have a crystal ball I could borrow?</p>
<p>I am sending a p.m.</p>
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</p>
<p>I urge against giving up something she “really wanted to do” on the very day she got back a single bad test.</p>
<p>I urge against trying to pick out a new career on the very next day after getting back the single bad test.</p>
<p>Instead, I urge taking some time to breathe, and to meet with TAs, tutors, anyone who could help her figure out how to do better in Orgo.</p>
<p>I urge that she assess her options after having had at least two weeks to think about and try to put into practice (while continuing to see the helpers) whatever advice she gets from the people who could help her.</p>
<p>Can she transfer to a different section? with a different professor?</p>
<p>Urge her to see her professor no matter what she thinks.It can be an eye opener (both good or bad). I had lecture classes with 300 students and I still went to see my professor. It helps to be face to face to get a feel (and advice) for your situation.
Too many students? I had a professor who knew 125 names (that was all of us) by the second day of class.</p>
<p>As an aside, my D1 was bio major with hopes of getting her DPT. She was struggling with the same issue, and with a prof who was tough, dry, and who had a rep for not tolerating crying female students in his office. She went to his office after the first exam determined to get some help and not shed any tears. She was only partly successful. She gutted it out and finished the course. </p>
<p>She did change her major, and is a senior and has found her passion outside of the sciences. And it has been two years since that course. At the end of that term, once grades were posted, her TA asked her out. She did not see that coming. They have been a couple ever since. I suspect he will one day be my son-in-law. She goes to Chem Dept functions with him, a PhD student, and now socializes with the “prof from hell.” Her BF saw in her determination, spunk, and respected that she never gave up.</p>
<p>You never know what Orgo will bring to your life… :).</p>
<p>ADad,
Yes, that’s what I want her to do but she’s in a panic right now. She tends to catastrophize situations.</p>
<p>In answer to a previous question, this is orgo II.</p>
<p>sunnyflorida–</p>
<p>musta been the “chemistry.” ;)</p>
<p>I know nothing about science majors and organic chemistry - but I do know quite a bit about majoring in business. I would not suggest a sudden impulsive shift to business - as she could have a similar experience. Many students start as business majors until they have their first accounting class - or maybe it’s quantitative finance that does them in. Business has its weed-out classes as well - just like engineering and pre-med. I hope she sticks it out - it sounds like a C is nothing to be ashamed of. I know business majors who are very happy to make it through a tough class with a C.</p>
<p>I rarely suggest dropping a course, but in this case that would be my advice. Your daughter should ask the adviser about a course that can be “late-added” to the schedule, to reach full-time student status. There is probably a professor who is willing to be accommodating about that–perhaps in some reading-intensive class that has a midterm, paper, and final, where your daughter could catch up. </p>
<p>If your daughter is taking a second round of orgo in the fall of her sophomore year, then she is probably ahead of schedule with it, so postponing it won’t hurt.</p>
<p>If she wants to continue in the PA program, and if the school’s assorted regulations will allow it, I suggest that next summer, she should find a good orgo tutor, and go over the all of the material from the spring course, and then delve into the new material that will be covered in the fall. Orgo is cumulative. Her grasp of the first course may just not be sufficient to do well in the subsequent course–as the first test seems to indicate.</p>
<p>Also, if she didn’t take General Chem yet, then by all means she should take that.</p>
<p>^^
She took Gen Chem last year firs semester, then orgo I, now orgo II. The next one is the Gen Chem Energetics.</p>
<p>She says that she understands the content of the course but does poorly on the tests. She is anxious and that is a factor.</p>
<p>ParentPanic, having watched a lot of students go through organic chemistry, I think the difficulty is that understanding the course content is not enough.</p>
<p>In many of the other courses–general chemistry, calculus, physics–understanding the course material is 90-95% of the issue. Not too much is required, usually, once a student understands it.</p>
<p>With organic, the nature of what constitutes mastery is different. Understanding the material is only takes a student about 20% of the way toward the goal. Then, in a typical organic chemistry course, the student has to really “get it” inside out, have a very strong command of the structures and reactions, and be able to apply the knowledge in new situations. Add in test anxiety, and it’s going to be really hard to perform well.</p>
<p>If there is any way that your daughter can drop the course now, and pick it back up after she has had a chance to do an intensive review of organic over the summer, I’d advise that.</p>
<p>If that’s impossible, then I suggest that she arrange for a tutor, preferably a grad student who is doing a Ph.D. in organic chemistry. It would not be excessive to meet every day for a while. They should go over the last semester’s work, as well as the current semester. The tutor may be able to spot what’s causing difficulties for your daughter. Organic requires visualization in 3-D, which can be difficult for some. Also, it requires one to understand some elements that are left implicit when the molecules are being drawn.</p>
<p>You might look around for material on the web by George Bodner (at Purdue, I believe), who has studied learning issues in organic chemistry in some depth.</p>
<p>Something else that might be useful: rather than flash cards, your daughter should get poster board or shelf paper, and organize the reactions within a larger context. This can be very helpful. For example, she could prepare both a large functional-group based chart, showing the principal reactions of each category of compound, and a synthetic strategies chart, showing how to accomplish specific types of changes. Not only the reactants, but also catalysts, heat, light, and solvents can be issues with organic reactions.</p>
<p>If she is stuck with it, then she should plan to pour a lot of time into it, with a good tutor. Having only 12 credits this semester should help out with that.</p>
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</p>
<p>Perhaps a counselor at the school’s counseling center could help with the anxiety.</p>
<p>AH, SunnyFL, love that tale…</p>
<p>I too would suggest dropping the course, taking during summer.</p>
<p>I have an advanced degree in organic chemistry and have tutored a lot of organic students over the years. My first suggestion would be to find a tutor ASAP - grad student, older student, whatever, as long as it is someone who understands the material AND is someone your daughter feels comfortable with. It’s important that your daughter feels comfortable asking stupid questions of this tutor, because as QM alluded to, success (or at least a C+) in organic means that you really understand the concepts and are not just trying to memorize your way through. (In aromatic substitution, for example, it doesn’t help to memorize all your ortho-para directors versus your meta directors - you need to remember why each group behaves as it does and then be able to explain it.)</p>
<p>Also, I think meeting with the professor during office hours is a good idea, even if she thinks it’s useless. At the very least, it sends a signal to the professor that she’s one of “those” students - determined to succeed and invested in doing well.</p>
<p>Good luck to her! I think organic chemistry gets a bum rap - I always loved it but in general it gets no love as a weed-out course. When I was in grad school, the home ec majors at my large university were required to take an organic chemistry class. They hated it, but I loved teaching their labs - they did the coolest experiements…</p>
<p>Thank you, everyone. I have passed all of your wise suggestions on to my D. At this point she is still determined to drop her major but she sounds miserable. She has an appointment with her advisor next week. I’m hoping that might give the situation a bit more clarity. We’ll see. I’ll keep you posted.</p>
<p>*She took Gen Chem last year firs semester, then orgo I, now orgo II. The next one is the Gen Chem Energetics.</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>Are the PA pre-reqs that different from the pre-med pre-reqs? I’ve only heard Gen Chem I, then Gen Chem II, then OChem I, then OChem II (if on a semester system). Do some other schools only have you take Gen Chem I and then on to the Organics??? Is that Gen Chem Energetics similar to Gen Chem II at other schools?</p>
<p>Supposedly the way you learn/memorize stuff for OChem I and II is similar to how you learn/memorize stuff for med/PA school, so these class grades are closely looked at
for professional admissions. And, it’s why these courses are the weeder courses. </p>
<p>I don’t think someone who is PA bound can take a pre-req like this pass/fail. I think you have to take it as a grade, but maybe not.</p>
<p>Tell her I seem to remember getting a C ( or worse!) in OC and graduated med school with honors.</p>
<p>Don’t tell her I only SEEM to remember because it was so long ago…</p>
<p>Mom2,
I don’t know about the way it is done at other schools. That’s a good question. The program she is in is a nationally ranked limited enrollment bio program and it means business. The chem energetics thing might be gen chem II.</p>
<p>Shrinkwrap,
Thanks! Lol. I will pass that on :)</p>
<p>Also, on a side note, I asserted my parental authority as the financier of this education and insisted that she go to her professors office hours and at least speak to him. Non-negotiable. After that and her meeting with the advisor, she can make up her own mind and we’ll take it from there.</p>