No means no. And, the greatest things that a person possesses are integrity, kindness and empathy. Allegorically, the strong do not exploit the powerless.
^^ The problem is that Yes can actually mean No if the person is intoxicated.
“No one can say in court that they were forced into something if they have evidence of the accuser holding a sign and smiling during it.”
Court, probably not. But in a university hearing? I have a student where it is undisputed that the parties had consensual sex for a lengthy period of time. The dispute is whether, after 30-40 minutes of consensual sex, she said “stop” and he failed to stop. She says that’s what happened; he says she never told him to stop. So a smiling picture wouldn’t have helped; the issue is whether she withdrew the consent after giving it. He was expelled.
@SeniorStruggling You were in the dorm when it happened? I mean, surely that’s the only way you can know that it was a false accusation.
I’m staring at my brain. Can we stop with this stupid “I regretted sex, so I decided to ruin someone’s life,” myth? It’s disrespectful to people who have been assaulted.
All this written and video consent stuff sound good in theory. But to expect drunk kids that are already making irresponsible decision to ask for written consent in the middle everything isn’t really realistic. If they were in the right mindset to do that then they probably wouldn’t be engaging in underage drinking and random sex.
Perhaps we should teach young people (and adults) to not be shackled to alcohol. I mean, it is a drug after all. Parents should encourage responsibility more. You shouldn’t just assume your kids know. One thing I’ve noticed at school is that a lot of parents don’t teach things to their book smart kids because they assume book smart = common sense. It doesn’t.
Another parent of boys who has raised them with the mantra that “only yes means yes, and impaired consent is not yes.” We have also discussed that, if neither sexual partner can recall what happened because they were both impaired, then my kid he cannot establish that it was consensual/dispute lack of consent.
@CaliCash I will admit we cannot be 100% sure on this case.
However the substantial evidence proved he was innocent. Among other things, she didn’t take it to court, lying in court is a federal offense, but she should have if it was true.
She screamed rape in more ways than one, except in court where she should have gone.
Mattress project humiliated him after he had already been acquitted by the university.
He was acquitted of all charges in the university hearing, and was proven innocent as there was no evidence to prove otherwise.
Her actions are drastic and play the attention game. All while never filing in court, which any actual victim would go. Especially since she put so much effort into it.
the “i regretted sex so i ruined his life” is a real thing that has happened.You cannot shut out a real danger because it might offend someone. Rape accusations ruin lives, and rape ruins lives. Neither is more dangerous than the other in terms of potential consequences.
Look at the incident in UVA which caused more than enough attention to ruin a whole frat’s reputation across campus and the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Rape_on_Campus
@Hanna It is sad to see things like that happen. Especially when there is no proof. This consent agreement sort of stuff will minimize the amount of false rape accusations and hopefully bring out only legit rape cases into hearings and the public.
I hope that this will deter parties from being brash and making false claims, we should see a positive reaction from people engaging in these consent documents.
I apologize for the space but this thought is more important, WHY NOT A PICTURE BEFORE AND AFTER? Like a card with 2 sides that says we consent, and then that the agreement is over.
My point is that a person of strong character and whom is empathetic does not exploit an inebriated or otherwise helpless person. No means no. You can ask twice if you want to. If the object of your desire says no…that’s the end of it.
“I’m staring at my brain. Can we stop with this stupid “I regretted sex, so I decided to ruin someone’s life,” myth? It’s disrespectful to people who have been assaulted.”
5.9% of rape cases are provably false, which means the accusers did in fact make them up. Provably means without any reason or doubt.
44.9% of rape cases do not proceed to a decision, which means they may have been or may not have been true.
13.9% can’t be categorized because of lack of information
and only 35.3% lead to action against accused.
If we split the 58.8% equally based on a ratio of 5.9:35.3 we get 1:6 and can roughly add the percentage accordingly.
In the end we are looking at
16% of all rape accusations being false
84% being true
This % in a test grade wouldn’t be acceptable in admissions anywhere, so why should we dismiss a so called “myth”.
Guys need protection, we really are often hurt when it comes down to similar cases. Even if we are not found guilty our lives can be ruined like Paul’s.
This is a real worry and issue, if anyone reads this I hope they take precautions and understand limits.
Not doubting that there are some false claims of rape and sexual assault, but don’t think that this is a rampant problem (although no doubt a significant one, when it does occur). I don’t think in this day and age it likely emanates from someone regretting sex. Nobody has to know if a woman has sex that she subsequently regrets. I don’t think accusing her sexual partner of rape will make her feel better about the situation. I think true false accusations more likely are the result of: confusion (wakes up and has had sex, but doesn’t recall giving consent); vindictiveness (guy treats her like crap afterwards or dumps her, etc.); or mental illness (which could be associated as well with either of the first two scenarios).
“Can we stop with this stupid “I regretted sex, so I decided to ruin someone’s life,” myth? It’s disrespectful to people who have been assaulted.”
It’s not a myth. I agree that false accusations are disrespectful, and destructive, to people who have been assaulted, who are far greater in number than false accusers.
“My point is that a person of strong character and whom is empathetic does not exploit an inebriated or otherwise helpless person.”
I agree. I also think that we should encourage our adult-aged children who aren’t helpless not to act as though they are helpless. We should tell them that if someone is trying to have sex with you that you do not want, state your wants clearly and leave.
“You can ask twice if you want to.”
Not at Swarthmore, you can’t. This student was in bed with her former lover, and she said no once, but when he came on to her again a little while later, she did not say no a second time (or ask him to leave, or anything), and he had sex with her. Many commentators agree that that was rape. I would never tell a young person that it is safe to ask twice. (Normal, yes. Safe, no.)
http://www.phillymag.com/articles/rape-happens-here-swarthmore-college-sexual-assaults/?all=1
“I think true false accusations more likely are the result of: confusion (wakes up and has had sex, but doesn’t recall giving consent); vindictiveness (guy treats her like crap afterwards or dumps her, etc.); or mental illness (which could be associated as well with either of the first two scenarios).”
@pittsburghscribe, you can add the following scenarios to that list:
- Accuser's conservative parent finds out about the consensual sex (see http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/09/drew_sterrett_and_university_of_michigan_the_school_vacates_its_findings.html)
- Accuser has a boyfriend/girlfriend who finds out about the illicit hookup with the accused. If the hookup was nonconsensual, it wasn't cheating.
You can’t assume the genders. It goes in both directions and sideways. And three-ways (see John Doe vs. Reed College).
Here’s the link re the threesome case: http://www.reedquest.org/reed-sued-by-expelled-student/
I would also tell my son that if a girl is really drunk, you just don’t do it. I talked to my daughter about never playing drinking games or taking shots. The intent is to get drunk as fast as possible. I also told her any guy who is trying to get her drunk is not a nice guy. A coworker’s daughter got into a terrible situation when she woke up naked in the bed of a guy she hardly knew - a football player. She had no recollection of going to bed with him. The last thing she remembered was playing a drinking game. He testified in court that she had passed out and that he carried her to bed. He was acquitted of rape charges and she was trashed by the local media. She’s a great girl. It just made me sick.
Much to their annoyance I am constantly sending both my kids videos of young people when they are drunk. I sent them both those vids of the Uber incidents - the one with the female medical student and the one where the drunk guy started assaulting the driver.
@Hanna, totally agree about the genders. Just didn’t have the energy to write all those sentences in a gender neutral way! Agree that your scenarios are also possible, just would think that there won’t be that many (particularly in the first category - didn’t have time yet to read the link, but can’t imagine that there are an abundance of those who can’t keep their sexual activity a secret from conservative parents, but maybe high schoolers?)
@HarvestMoon1, that’s a great idea. I may steal that one. Nothing more unattractive and humiliating - both of which, kids hate to be.
All this “boys are bad stuff” came to the media forefront after my two oldest boys were graduated from college, but I told my youngest when he went off two years ago that if anyone accuses him of anything he didn’t do to call our lawyer first…then call his dad and I. And I have zero doubt he would do so. By the time they are adults you have to assume you’ve done as good a job as you are capable to raise them with strong morals, to make thoughtful decisions and to develop healthy relationships with other people, all you can do to protect them is to make sure their basic rights are not abused or they are caught in a media sh*t-storm. This is a turbulent time in our society that tilts more favorably to the weak and not the strong. The conversations about drinking, about safe sex, drugs and all that started years before they left for college. When they are loading the family grocery-getter to head off is way to late for those conversations. I’ve not been concerned that they would do something wrong, I’ve been more concerned they would be caught in someone else’s lies or by an college administrator who just wants things to go away.