@ToBeHonestt Thanks for sharing your experience and sorry you had to get through that. It’s important that everyone’s rights be respected. If you projected yourself 20 years into the future, what would you tell your teen son about consent? And in 2016 what messages from parents and educators do you feel are and are not effective with teen males?
@Hanna #432 “a baseline to try to improve upon.” That’s what I really liked about the Canadian study. It sought to make an improvement. I’ve been hearing variants of the 1 in X studies from the US for over 30 years.
“@Hanna Have you ever had a claim like this in your profession?”
I have not, so far, had a case where the accuser recanted. I have had cases where the accused’s side of the story is much like yours and there is evidence in support of that version. I have a couple of clients who are suing the accuser for defamation.
I have one case, fortunately unique in my experience so far, where the accuser admits that my student asked for and got affirmative verbal consent, but he was disciplined anyway because she says she didn’t mean it. He hired me because he couldn’t find a school that would admit him, even with this context.
@patertrium I would tell my teen son to make sure he is a gentlemen, but to also leave a paper trail. I would say that consent selfie card with a before and after side and before and after selfies would be the safest thing. Texts that recall and lead up to it would also be helpful.
Basically cover your a$$. It seems ungentlemenlike and crude or improper, but having a paper trail and having a kiss and talk about it situation would have saved a lot of grief. Make sure that they are immediate and within the time window as well.
The messages that aren’t effective with male teens is how something like an absolutely false allegation can ruin you. I also want girls to be taught that actions do have consequences and that this is just as bad at ruining lives if not worse than a rape.
These things ruin lives, just ask Paul from Columbia or the step dad who was in jail for 17 years for “molesting” his step daughter, when she came clean and said she lied to police just a couple years ago.
I am happy and I have a great gf now but we have issues because of this thing that happened to me only a few years ago.
I haven’t been able to be intimate with my current gf(of 6 months) and I love her and I know I want to marry her. I am just extremely distraught and fearful of what might happen, even though I know it won’t. We haven’t had sex because I am still so damaged from what happened, and it seems stupid, but I can’t get “it” up because every time I think about anything like that it just depresses me and makes me fearful for what might happen.
I was bullied and physically assaulted a lot, and by people who I didn’t even know. I had bruises all over my body and was taunted in every class. Even after she came out.
My trust for people is gone and I am as damaged if not more than a rape victim because of the abuse I had to go through because of a stupid girl I dated.
I assume alh you mean society as a whole, and not the posters here, when you say that we have to believe that some of our sons are rapists. Given the limited number of posters here and the much larger number of college men, not clear that “our” sons are rapists.
Education is the key for both men and women. Not just some online course about affirmative consent, but an interactive discussion. Look at the Yale hypotheticals… Adults here can’t quite agree if some are rape, what the consequence should be, and most agree that in reality, the available information would likely be much more fuzzy. Discussing real cases, especially the fuzzy ones, may help both mean and women understand the potential consequences of their actions. Men and women also may learn to communicate and to read subtle signs better if they are “trained”.
The Canadian study linked to above talks about teaching woman to recognize potential danger signs, to use a buddy system, and to be more assertive, and that these measures actually work. While the goal is to reduce the incidence of attempted rapes, improving communication and teaching women to be safe is IMHO, a good idea.
And for the man: teaching them what to look for in terms of signs a girl may be “too impaired”, even if she seems enthusiastic, might help. Getting them to understand the difference between a request and cohesion also may help. I truly believe that the vast majority of all young men, while certainly interested in pursuing sexual activity, do not want to take advantage of an unwilling young woman and really don’t want to commit rape.
Perhaps a re-thinking of high school health classes to focus on these issues. I know there were some lessons on affirmative consent for my youngest, but likely top-down teaching. Discussion and analysis might work much better and they are more of a captive audience in HS than in college…
“Texts that recall and lead up to it would also be helpful.”
I think that someone in this thread stated that texts are not considered admission of consent in California. I also recall that, in some of these past sexual abuse cases, texts were disallowed by the college tribunals. (I’m sorry that I can’t be more specific.)
So exactly what recorded evidence (photos, documents, etc.) would suffice for college administrators? Maybe none? because they wish to maintain the ability to make ad hoc decisions?
I don’t have solutions at all.
For better or worse – almost certainly worse – my position on this is pretty similar to Erica Christakos on Halloween. I think late adolescents make lots of mistakes, and fumble-stumble their way into many areas of life, especially including sex. That doesn’t mean that we say mistakes aren’t wrong, or that boys will be boys, but I also don’t think it means we go all high-dudgeon when we catch a potential scapegoat. And I don’t think it’s wise at all for universities (or police for that matter) to get into the business of trying to regulate this beyond really outrageous, predatory cases, which certainly exist. This is something that young people have been working out themselves for most of human history, and by and large they still do. Having Authority try to shortcut the process isn’t effective.
What I (tried to) teach my kids was that sex is complicated in many different ways. If you take your expectations from books, movies, porn (God help us), or even friends, you are going to be confused and disappointed – and remember there’s always someone else in the room who may be confused and disappointed, too, in some completely different way. It takes work and time to meld two people’s tastes, desires, expectations, and insecurities, and that can’t happen outside of a relationship with a lot of commitment, whether or not it’s a committed relationship. And a relationship that’s just sexual isn’t likely to work.
I discussed with them, non-graphically, mistakes I had made around sex in my late teens, ways in which I had treated girls badly without intending to, the role alcohol and drugs could play in that, how I learned to avoid hurting people.
They had lots of practice analyzing the power dynamic of gender roles, in the personal sphere (including sexuality) and the public sphere. But I also encouraged my daughter not to think of herself as a victim. When something bad happens to you, absorb the lesson and move on. It occurs to me that I am not 100% certain that she knows her mother was raped, by an ex-boyfriend, as a college freshman. I’m pretty sure my wife discussed it with her sometime, and she knows that it wasn’t right, but it wasn’t a defining event in her mother’s life, either.
I laugh a little at the standard advice only to have sex in a committed relationship, because after kids are in college, and probably before, I don’t think for most people a relationship gets to “committed” without sex. I think sex often tests what commitment there is in the late-early stages of a relationship. And I suspect that a not-small percentage of the rapes surveyed occurred in the context of a committed relationship, or something like it, or its ashes. Sure, there are a few men who get off on controlling strangers, or acquaintances, but I think for many people there’s a lot of danger when they start to feel entitled to make demands of one another.
@whatisyourquest Basically, any evidence and trail you can leave. I know sometimes it will get thrown out, but it can surely alter the decision and views of the jury. You don’t have to get a jury to like you and your evidence doesn’t have to allowed by court. but having things like this can put you in better light to the jury or committee making the decision
http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/08/sexual-consent-contracts-are-now-a-real-thing-you-can-buy/
Something like this that has another side that is in red or says “we had consentual ‘yada yada’” that way there is a contract and a fulfillment of said contract documented. Even if it isn’t a legal document, it is an agreement between two people.
Also, I don’t want to sound like I am playing victim, because I do not feel like I am defined by it. But the phycological stress and abuse I suffered really has hurt my ability to trust.
I do not whine about it or be depressed, I made it into college and I am holding a 3.5 in biochem with aspirations of med school, but it has caused a lot of issues for me when getting intimate as it was only 5 years ago that it happened.
@JHS I agree that we shouldn’t promote victim, poor me, mentalities. I do know however that some things can’t be shaken off as easy as it sounds
“So exactly what recorded evidence (photos, documents, etc.) would suffice for college administrators?”
There aren’t any rules. This kind of decision can be inconsistent not only from school to school but from case to case at the same school. I have an expelled student where the evidence consisted solely of his texts (the accuser did not remember what happened). So they can certainly be admitted and given dispositive weight if the college wants them to be.
"I have one case, fortunately unique in my experience so far, where the accuser admits that my student asked for and got affirmative verbal consent, but he was disciplined anyway because she says she didn’t mean it. He hired me because he couldn’t find a school that would admit him, even with this context. "–@Hanna post 442
Glad to hear it is unique in your experience, because if this guy got kicked out, what more can be done? It sounds like he followed “Yes means Yes”, and got his Yes.
How was he supposed to know she didn’t mean it? Were there non-verbal cues she wasn’t into it that she feels he should have picked up on even after she gave her Yes? Did the school really expect him to be a mind reader and know that in this circumstance, Yes really meant No?
If the Yes isn’t good enough now, what is? (asking these questions in a general way)
Sorry for all the questions, I really don’t have answers myself. I know my college student son hasn’t had a girlfriend since junior year of HS. I think he’s definitely a little wary to start dating or have a relationship, and I think that’s too bad.
I’m just glad I’m not out there anymore.
JHS:
I am glad you brought up Erica Christakos. On one hand I absolutely agreed with that letter. On the other hand, I don’t know where we draw the line between a Lord of the Flies type situation and cosseting. We can’t leave it all up to kids to figure out. imho. They are going to need help, some more than others. It is fine to say societal disapproval will regulate behavior if we agree that societal norms are usually correct. That will really depend what particular bubble we inhabit. imho. Since my bubble is at the upper end of privilege it works just fine for me. Since, as I’ve admitted, I’m one of those over-protective moms, I would prefer to protect kids from themselves so much as is possible though I recognize that has sometimes been a parenting flaw of mine.
We can’t make them play nice. I think adults in a teaching position always need to be encouraging playing nice. I don’t know when we quit treating them like little kids. Some need guidance a whole lot longer than others and given freedom to make mistakes, may not survive their mistakes. imho. I know we can’t protect them from everything. Still.
Meanwhile, some poster claims that he is being racially profiled in an accusation of sexual misconduct:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-life/1859674-how-to-combat-malicious-accusations-am-i-being-racially-profiled.html#latest
@ToBeHonestt a very, very similar thing happened to a good friend of my third son. In that case, and her mother had alot to do with the police involvement, she too, finally admitted she had made up the story. You both were fortunate the the young women finally told the truth. But it certainly is the reason I have concerns about colleges and universities making knee jerk adjudications.
@momofthreeboys I agree, I don’t think that these cases are so rare. Not as rare as the 1 in 10 that are thought of. My school had only 5 alleged rapes in 2 years, and 3 girls were proven liars. The other 2 were in a gray area because there was alcohol, and the charges weren’t rape… more of statutory rape since it was an 18 and 16 year old and similar in the other case.
How can we say that these fall in a substantial minority when I have seen more than 1 case? Mine was by far the most extreme since the girl told everyone she knew… which was a lot considering she was pretty popular.
@CaliCash I found your earlier post of “mythological” fake cases insulting, they do happen and I am here as proof.
How many girls are really raped when you take out lower socioeconomic neighborhoods that are more prone to violence? How many are raped in elite private schools?
I’m so sorry for your experience, ToBeHonestt. It sounds dreadful. I wish you peace as you heal from this experience.
There are malicious young women who intentionally false rumors. ToBeHonestt was a victim of one such woman. But women making up false stories out of malice does not seem to me to be a good explanation of 5% or 10% or 20% of college women saying they’ve been raped. If a young woman wants to blacken a young man’s reputation with a false rape allegation, or defend herself against an accusation of promiscuity by pretending consensual sex was forced sex, she can’t do it on an anonymous survey where neither accuser nor accused is named.
We’ve got to assume that the vast majority of women who say they’ve experienced sexual situations we term rape believe what they are saying. In one anonymous survey, some 8% of college men admitted to actions that constitute rape, even while they denied being rapists. In anonymous surveys, some 5-20% of women say that they have experienced actions that constitute rape, and probably many of them would not say they were raped. It seems that a lot of people are unclear on the concept of rape.
When 30% of college guys in one survey said they’d force a woman to have sex if they knew they could get away with it, and only 10% of those same guys said they would rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it, we have a problem. Those guys who don’t know what rape is are going to sometimes encounter young women who do know what rape is. So we’d better make sure our sons are clear on getting consent.
@“Cardinal Fang” thank you for that.
I agree there are a number of girls who may or are raped, but we need to teach more communication to lessen it. Since “date rape” is significantly higher than violent or malicious rape.
Date rape seems to be either, they are drunk or they are impaired. I do not think schools should expel students who are sincere in thinking they had consent, and that each case should be assessed and character evaluations should be used to help.
Educate teens about sex and consent and teach them that it can go both ways and ruin both peoples lives.
That has to be the most important factor.
This kind of “boys will be boys” attitude is what got us to all those rapes. We’ve been working it out-- by some men raping women and not facing any consequences. I’m not satisfied with the old way. The old way is the 10% of women get raped way.
Does your wife agree that the old system-- that system where she was raped as a college freshman, and lots of other young women were also raped as college freshmen-- was just fine, and colleges should have no role in policing rapes? Did she think so then?
Several people in this conversation have said that they were raped as young women, or their partner was raped as a young woman. It seems clear that rape is in fact as common as the surveys say.
Every. Single. Rapist. thinks they got consent. I’ve read some of the landmark legal decisions about rape, and all of the rapists claim there was consent. The guy who locked the doors and kept the woman hostage at gunpoint for hours and raped her while she begged to leave. The guy who was discovered as a longtime child abuser because he gave his preschool-aged niece gonorrhea. The guy who broke into a woman’s house in the middle of the night and raped her in front of her toddler. I feel like I need a shower after reading these cases, and in every single one, the rapist says she consented.
I don’t care if he says she consented. When guys are horny, they think with their *s. His belief is not enough. He needs to have a reasonable belief that she consented, based on words or actions that a reasonable, sober person not thinking with their * would think were consent.
“Every. Single. Rapist. thinks they got consent.”
I don’t agree with this. Some don’t care. They may have claimed they thought they had it when in court trying to protect their freedom. But if you think you have it, you wouldn’t need a weapon.
I WISH schools would use a “reasonable belief” standard! that would be great! At least two thirds of my clients would still be in school.
@“Cardinal Fang” That’s why I mentioned character evaluations. There are ways to test sociopathy and psychopathy and to determine character and moral integrity. Look at their history of cheating or stealing, look at records and the have written analysis by peers and school officials.
If a kid is mentally disturbed there will be signs. The kid that was put into a bad spot and was also drunk and had drunk sex with a girl, that kid should be spared expulsion.
I was also talking about date rape, malicious violent rape is to be left to trail and the police. That, luckily, is not the most common form or alleged form.