What do you tell your sons about consent?

“Are you saying that because she was in a blackout state it is clear, in retrospect, she was too drunk to consent (#831) but that it is not clear whether a reasonable person would have been able to observe that (whether 18 or 45)?”

That’s right. At that school, at least, there wasn’t a reasonable person standard. If you have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, then it’s rape and you get expelled, regardless of whether you were also drinking (which he was) and regardless of whether the intoxication was visible at the time.

I mean, he’s definitely guilty of having sex with her when she was too drunk. I believe she’s telling the truth about the blackout. He broke the rules. But I think it may have been an honest mistake, and expulsion was too harsh.

“If schools are using the falling down drunk, unable to walk standard”

Many of them aren’t. Kids are being found responsible for sexual assault with fellow students who are (it is undisputed) far less intoxicated than that.

There is no doubt that there is something of a double standard there, for example, I know of cases where it was a same sex couple where the university refused to prosecute a case like this (two women), arguing basically that because it was two women, it couldn’t be rape. I think that some of the rules do trouble me, and here is why:

1)If a boy is drunk and the girl has sex with him, there is an implicit notion in many of the rules that assumes the boy was ‘active’, and if so, must have been able to control himself, so a girl couldn’t be guilty of non consensual sex. Not to mention, of course, the idea that 'what kind of boy/man would object to having sex?", which is despicable in of itself. Put it this way, would they feel the same way if the boy was drunk, and the girl did something like penetrate him, or whip him or something?

2)If a boy and girl are both drunk out of their minds, they will charge the boy with non consensual sex, with the assumption that simply because he is a boy and the partner is a girl, he must be guilty of rape…why? In that case, then charge them both with non consensual sex, since a)it is unknown who is guilty, the girl could have initiated sex, the boy could have, and they both are guilty of having sex with someone blacked out.

For the record, the defense that someone was drunk should never be used to keep them from facing consequences. If a girl was too drunk to consent and her partner was as well, they both are guilty of having sex with someone who couldn’t consent, and should be charged, the idea that a woman cannot rape or be guilty of non consensual sex is the ultimate form of sexism, and sadly, I have heard women argue that very thing, that in those cases it is always the boy at fault, since of course they are predatory monsters.

And what if it is two girls, both drunk out of their minds, who have sex? Does this mean one of them must be the agressor and the other one victim? (one of the problem with these rules is from what I have seen, with two women they would not prosecute and assume it was one of those things). Likewise, if it is two boys having sex, they are both drunk, is only one guilty, or would the likely refuse to prosecute?

That said, though, that is one case, where they are both drunk beyond the point of consenting. However, there is a difference between where there had been drinking but the boy was not bombed out of his head, and the girl was (and the same thing should apply if the girl was able to consent, but the boy couldn’t), that imbalance should be sexual assault, it is not equal and that is the point, if one person is assumed to have control of themselves (ie cognizant, aware, able to consent) and the other one cannot, that is sexual assault (and as I think I wrote in another post, that one depends on the state, some would view a non consensual sex act with drinking like this as being different than rape, others may not, all depends on the state).

There will always be gray areas with these cases, and if the law is to be followed properly, if the gray is too large to tell what happens, then the ruling should be no ruling. If a boy and girl (or girl on girl, boy on boy) having sex is a case where they are both drunk out of their minds, then I personally think it should be ruled inconclusive, since neither party could consent, or both should be given some penalty, perhaps less than sexual assault (whatever happened to a penalty for being disorderly on campus or some variation thereof, perhaps with stiffer penalties).

The sad truth is, though, that a lot of these cases aren’t so gray, the ones where the boy is totally drunk out of his mind and blacked out are not that common from what I have seen, while usually the boy was drinking, it usually is a case where the girl, probably because they were drinking one for one, was bombed while the boy, who likely has a higher tolerance for alcohol because of body size, may be drunk but not blacked out. Worse, a lot of boys still have the idea, usually caught from dear old dad and other men around him, that consent is assumed, that of course she wants it (and before someone claims I am anti male, I am not, being a guy, I have been around these attitudes all my life).

So what did I tell my son? I told him to use his head, that if either he or his partner (in his case, a girl) had been drinking or seemed impaired, to assume it wasn’t okay, the same way I told him that if he felt uncomfortable, to stop, or if he felt in any way that his partner might not be happy, to stop and talk to her and make sure she is okay, and drummed into him that sex is a powerful thing, and that yes, as a boy, for better or worse he will often be held to a higher standard, but more importantly, to cherish that sex freely given is a heck of a lot better than if your partner is wasted. I am fortunate with him, while he can do stupid things, he has natural empathy and the last thing he ever wants to do is hurt someone, and he also is not one to drink like that either, in part because for him I suspect it isn’t a big deal. It is like anything else in life, I think a lot of it is what the person picks up from people around him, he has been around a very different group of kids growing up, plus my wife and I aren’t exactly of the ‘boys will be boys’ school of things, so he never as far as I can tell internalized the idea that he was owed sex, or that if you can grab it, no matter what, go for it.
Could he do something stupid even with all that? Yep, he is not perfect, he makes mistakes, and all I can hope is that the lessons I tried to teach and his own experience are strong enough to override any idea of doing something stupid…and it doesn’t always work, fortunately the kind of stupid things he has done are not of this type of thing:)

“And what if it is two girls, both drunk out of their minds, who have sex? Does this mean one of them must be the aggressor and the other one victim?”

I have heard from just one student disciplined for a lesbian encounter. In that case, the accused was the one who was penetrated. The accuser argued that she, herself, was too drunk to consent to penetrating someone else. The accused was expelled.

“What do I tell my son and my daughter about consent?”

“Get it in writing.”

Honest mistake, in the sense that he didn’t deliberately have sex with someone he was positive was too drunk, but… How hard was he trying not to make the mistake? He didn’t know she wasn’t too drunk, because in fact she was too drunk. She didn’t deceive him by sneaking out and drinking in secret so that he could have no possible way of knowing she was drunk. And she didn’t get blackout drunk by having two sips of alcohol. She’d been drinking and he thought he could get away with it. He knew the risk, he knew the penalty, and he did it anyway. Bad choice.

The message here is, don’t have sex with someone who might be too drunk, hoping that either they aren’t too drunk or you won’t get caught. Only have sex with people you know aren’t too drunk.

@hanna-
That is interesting, and in many ways breaks stereotypes in that the accused was the one who was the passive partner, given that usually they assume the one who is active is the one guilty. I also wonder in a case like this if it had been oral sex, especially where it was two way, if they could have accused them. Personally I think that if both are drunk like that, they both should be found guilty, if the accuser said she was too drunk to penetrate someone consensually and the other person was really drunk as well, then they both should be guilty. Sounds to me more like buyer’s remorse…

“Not to mention, of course, the idea that 'what kind of boy/man would object to having sex?”, which is despicable in of itself."

You might think that’s despicable, but that is very very very often true. Are you familiar with the study done on the FSU campus years ago? 75% of college males were willing to accept the invitation of a female stranger to have sex. 0% of college females were so willing. Drunk guys not consenting to sex (at least heterosexual sex) is not a problem we need to worry much about.

The overwhelming risk faced by college guys is getting accused of not obtaining consent. Intoxication of the guy and/or the girl both pose risk to the guy. If the guy is very drunk, he may do things while raging drunk that he would never do when more sober. And he’ll be held responsible (if, of course, there’s proof) regardless since voluntary drunkenness is never a defense.

For example, the Vandy football player who had over 20 drinks. He was likely operating on just his brain stem at that level of intoxication. The grossness and the idiocy of the behavior there tells you the frontal lobe was inoperable. The guy was a rapist at a BAC of 0.4; very doubtful he would have done those awful things at 0.2. But 0.4 is no legal excuse.

@northwesty did you happen to read the article I posted. It is about a football player being date raped.

I get that tfm isn’t a real news source, but this is something that actually should be read. This is a first hand report of it.

@northwesty:
Nope, that wouldn’t surprise me at all. And also, unless it was something odd, likely a guy would never charge a woman with rape. However, legally, if a woman had sex with a man who was that drunk, she could be charged even if the partner didn’t want to press charges I believe, that for example, if let’s say an RA or a college security officer saw a girl having sex with a boy (let’s say a public place), and the guy was totally drunk and the girl wasn’t, they could charge her I believe, if someone else witnessed it (not saying it is likely to happen, but it could, I believe you don’t need the accuser to file charges if someone else witnessed it).

The Vanderbilt case was not gray, the guys accused of rape were drunk, that is true, but the woman in question was beyond drunk, she was unconscious. In that case, it is pretty black and white, someone who is unconscious can’t consent to sex at all, period. If she had been very drunk but conscious, it would be a bit grayer, in that if let’s say her BA was .4 like the accused, who is to say who is guilty of rape there, if they were equally blotto? I realize that this comes down to a lot of things, but my point is that there can be shades of gray, and if both are equally drunk but not unconscious, who was the guilty party? Even though boys generally would never cry rape, does that mean that such an encounter might have been legally rape on the part of the girl? My problem is that officials assume automatically that if you have this situation, the male must be the rapist (again, not talking the vandy case, where the young woman was literally unconscious).

I agree you won’t have to worry about men reporting such things, though, unless the woman did something really different,like penetrated him or something, or had him have sex with a boy or something that disturbed him, unlikely to happen, but what if a girl has buyers remorse who was so drunk, and filed a complaint, is that boy truly guilty?

Alcohol is not excuse for boorish behavior, or for criminal behavior, or hurting someone else, my whole point, though, is where it is gray, where either could be considered to have had sex without the consent of the other, assuming it is the boy who is guilty if the girl files a complaint is basically using the word of someone who didn’t remember what she did (I am again talking the case where both are really drunk, out of it drunk, if a boy is not that drunk, and has sex with a very, very drunk girl, he deserves what he gets quite honestly, as would be a girl who is not out of control drunk who had sex with a boy who is out of it, assuming someone actually knew about it).

What is kind of sad about this situation, and it is a sad story all around, is that many of those who would dismiss these kind of things, nod nod, wink wink, just good ole boy fun, etc, would condemn people into things like BD/SM, where the culture and the rules are based around consent (for example, a lot of people into that kind of thing will only do that kind of activity when sober), where there is a lot more concern about consent and rules and such, yet the same jerk offs who would blame the girl for what happened (Steubenville, Ohio, anyone?) would condemn these people as degenerates, kind of mind boggling.

I don’t see any inherent bias in the policies themselves - they are all gender neutral and apply equally to men and women. There are no assumptions as to who the “active” party is, that is something that is alleged by the individual who files the complaint. The conduct covered under these policies is very broad, we are not just talking about rape.

I am most familiar with the policy at the school my D attends. Under that policy any physical contact with another person of a sexual nature without that person’s “effective consent” is actionable. The contact has different classifications and I assume different penalties. That covers a lot of territory and there are many points of contact that might lead to a man filing a complaint that would not rise to the level of rape.

The only bias I see is a cultural one. I think what I am hearing on this thread is that men would be reluctant to file a complaint about unwanted physical contact with a partner. And that’s fine, but I don’t think that means they should be less understanding, or even angry, if women feel differently. I sense from some posters that they think women should just chalk it up to a “bad experience” or a “learning experience.” If I ever was unfortunate enough to find myself in that situation I can say with certainty that “chalking it up” to anything would not suffice for me.

I am definitely not someone who would expect women to chalk it up to experience, where the cultural bias I think comes in may be in the automatic assumption that let’s say a girl files a complaint against a young man for sexual contact when let’s say she was drunk, that it becomes guilty until proven innocent. I am not saying that sexual assault cases or unwanted sexual contact is a myth or that a lot of these cases the person filing the complaint is lying, what I am saying is if it is ambiguous, if let’s say both of them were drunk like that, where in effect neither could consent, then the penalties should take into account the state of both of them, rather than assuming, as I suspect happens more than a bit (in this specific type of case), that the boy is guilty, when if both had blacked out, how do you know who was guilty, yet in a sense they are saying that a woman cannot be guilty of unwanted sexual contact (like I said, if you have a case where there was no evidence of forced rape, where both of them were blotto, then both should face consequences, since either one of them could have been guilty, since neither could give consent, otherwise neither should). In most cases of this kind of sexual assault, from everything I have read, it isn’t that gray, most of the ones I have read about the girl was out of it and the guy was not, and that is not gray to me.

“he thought he could get away with it.”

This is the only part of your post I disagree with. He didn’t think he was getting away with anything. He thought what they were doing was mutually desired and just fine. If he’d had the mindset of getting away with something, he surely wouldn’t have told her what happened (in great detail, and in writing) when she asked. There was no strategic avoiding of trouble whatsoever. If he’d given a moment’s thought to getting away with it, he would have.

The rule at his school, as I understand it, is *Do not have sex with someone who is very drunk. If in doubt, do not have sex.*He knew or should have known this rule. It was not a secret. He knew she was drunk, but he decided to have sex anyway. He didn’t know she would accuse him, but unless he was a dolt he knew she might accuse him and she might have a good case, as indeed she did. He was warned.

The entire reason the school has the rule in the first place is to prevent exactly what he did. The school is saying, Don’t do this. We mean it. Hopefully the next guy will believe them.

I think it is really important that our sons and daughters have an understanding of the standard they will be held to under their college’s sexual assault policy. The culture on most college campuses “flies in the face” of those standards, so the unaware can be easily “bushwhacked.”

I am not sure how good of a job the schools do in explaining their policies to incoming freshmen. I know the vast majority of them include a seminar on sexual assault awareness at orientation, but my impression is that many of them are very generic. These kids need to have a solid grasp on the standards they will be held to - then we can say with confidence “you knew the rules and chose to break them.”

With my own daughter I did not leave it up to the school to educate her - I wanted to be sure she understood and will do the same with my son. So add that to the list of what to tell our sons and daughters about consent.

  1. [quote] The entire reason the school has the rule in the first place is to prevent exactly what he did. The school is saying, *Don't do this. We mean it.* Hopefully the next guy will believe them.

    [/quote]

This statement is at the heart of why I am repeatedly annoyed by @“Cardinal Fang”'s positions in this thread. While I am sure that is the policy of the college in question, I am equally sure that its policy is violated and violated and violated and violated. And maybe once in a blue moon, or much less often, someone files a complaint. The moral experience of students will be that drunken sex is commonplace and has no serious administrative consequences, and then at random the college designates someone as a rapist. That’s not likely to diminish the incidence of drunken sex significantly so much as to diminish respect for authority.

Since time immemorial, no one has had a lot of success stopping 20 year olds from getting drunk and having sex. I don’t mean to disregard issues of consent here. Drunken people have a right not to consent to sex. Drunken people have a right not to be exploited. However, out in the real world my experience and my observation tells me that one of the significant reasons why young people voluntarily intoxicate themselves is to overcome their ambivalence about sex and make initiation or consent on their own part more likely, and that creates a whole spectrum of moral fuzziness that simplistic slogans like “Do not have sex with someone who is very drunk” fail to acknowledge.

  1. An implied premise to this entire discussion is that sex is uniquely important and requires all sorts of special policing. And I wonder if that's really justified.

People who are drunk do all kinds of things they might be unhappy about later, and other people do things to them, too. When have we heard about someone getting expelled from college because he or she encouraged a drunken friend to get a tattoo? I am certain tattoo artists are supposed to refuse requests from drunken people, and often do, but I am equally sure that plenty of people still wake up the next morning with a tattoo they would rather not have. Where’s the outrage about that? And how about the not-so-uncommon “pranks” of shaving an eyebrow, or drawing something on the face, or maybe inducing bedwetting, of someone who has passed out? Popular culture insists on presenting that as funny, not as criminal battery. What about kids who lose money playing poker while drunk, who injure themselves horsing around, who reveal secrets about themselves while drunk that others may later use against them?

No one is saying any of that is a good thing, but no one is carrying on jihad against it, either. Adding sex makes everything different. Why that is deserves some thought. I think the answer is complex, but there’s a lot that hearkens back to the time when the chastity of women was considered a property right of their fathers and their communities.

@JHS I have read the last two paragraphs of your post 3 times and am wondering if you could clarify for me. Are you equating or drawing some level of equivalency between sexual assault and getting a tattoo or shaving an eyebrow? Or seriously questioning why the response to them is different?

And I wonder if there is a gender divide here, because I think being tattooed against one’s will is completely different than having had intercourse against one’s will.

I’m currently dealing with my mother, who is not entirely mentally competent and who is in a rehab hospital right now. I’d be upset if I found out someone had tattooed her without her consent (which she could not give). That would be very bad. But it would be a light breeze compared to the force 5 hurricane of fury I’d feel if someone had sex with her without her consent (which she cannot give and wouldn’t give). Males in this thread, do you really think that waking up to discover an unwanted tattoo is the same as waking up to discover someone has had sex with you without your consent? Females, how do you think about this?

It’s not equivalency. It’s an analogy.

@“Cardinal Fang” I would be more upset with a tattoo than having had sex.

Tattoos are forever, a drunken hook up is a “ONE-night stand”

I’m also unpersuaded by the idea that because lots of people get away with something, therefore if someone is caught, they should not be punished.

Many, many students cheat at college. In fact, many students not only cheat, but they defend cheating. “Everyone does it.” “I plagiarized because I’m not a native speaker of English.” “This assignment wasn’t important so it doesn’t matter that I copied my entire project from my classmate.”

However, sometimes students are caught cheating, and when they are, the college is entirely within their rights to lower the boom on the cheaters. “Well, somebody else cheated.” Yeah, but we caught you and we’re throwing you out.