Why if so many real rape victims choose not to report it due to shame, discomfort, etc., do we think that there really is a rash of non rape victims who would want to report? All of those same disincentives remain and the lack of a true sexual assault would also weigh against such a report. That’s why I think that the number of false accusations is not very large and is likely driven primarily by vindictiveness and/or mental illness.
@mom2and what you wrote in #79 is different than saying posters said “they don’t care what happens to the men” and “the man must be guilty regardless of the level of evidence.” I am going to give posters here more intellectual credit than that.
And I really do think we need to let these women articulate for themselves what they are thinking when they file claims of sexual assault. How do we know that she filed because “she could not have possibly wanted to have sex with that particular guy so it must have been forced.”? Or that she didn’t want to continue “but really did not communicate that verbally”? Or she though that “he should have known” she wanted him to stop? These are things others are assuming unless they are specifically on record.
If the woman actually articulates any of the above statements at the hearing or in her written claim documentation, then I would agree they should be considered in evaluating her claim. But otherwise we are simply projecting what we think might have happened onto her.
In the prevailing “micro-aggression” culture, administrators somewhat have their hands tied. Lets just say that 6% of accusations are false. I think most administrators would rather choose to suspend or expel that 6% than to look like they are not protecting the girls on their campus. Since many of these instances are not taken to the criminal justice system, it doesn’t seem as “bad” to “convict” a boy. If in theory they have a 94% chance of being right, I think they will go the path of least resistance and best PR.
It’s a tough situation. There is very little down side for a girl making a false accusation. Even when cases have been proven to be false, the girls are generally not prosecuted for false claims. Prosecuting a woman for a false claim could have the effect of real victims being afraid to come forward. And that’s true - it would. So what do you do?
Re #82
And it can be hard for a third party to tell the few false accusations from the real ones (and they probably guess wrong in both directions often).
However, there may be more confidence in cases where multiple unrelated cases involve the same suspect.
Get an injunction if an institution seems to be rushing to judgement and suspending or expelling without just cause. Get a private investigator if the woman doesn’t report to the police so there is documentation of a real investigation. Get a court order to keep the accuser away if the college hasn’t already worked to keep the two separated. In other words you try to nip it in the bud and get it in the hands of professionals in the fastest quickest way possible. It’s all chump change compared to the cost of college and if suddenly suspended or expelled the sunk costs and the future costs and whatever else come out of pocket to get the train back on the tracks plus that doesn’t even touch any future cost in terms of any potential adverse publicity or residual negative fall-out.
If the woman is serious and was assaulted, she can turn to the police who will assume the burden of investigation. And the legal system will bear the burden for prosecution. She can avail herself of restraining orders. But if she doesn’t want to use established legal channels for her accusation then there is a potential legal burden she’s taking and her family is taking on all by themselves… I may be harping on lawyers, but the minute our federal government turned these activities into issues with real consequences that could be tried and judged by non-legal professionals in a non-legal setting with consequences amounting to large amounts of dollars and the potential to defame and harm a person’s reputation, a person is no longer safeguarded as they would be in the actual real legal system and should move quickly to protect themselves. That’s why I tell the boys to call the lawyer first and their dad and I second.
Is there evidence that false accusations that reach a university office or the police actually are a common result of later regret? If this is a very common response to a later break-up, or to the feeling that one had acted foolishly, but consensually, then by all means, it should be talked about.
But what if it is not true that false accusations are common when there is later regret? What if planting the idea that this false accusations are common makes it easier to persuade a jury that an accusation is false–in the rare cases where a trial occurs? What if planting the idea that false accusations are common makes CC parents believe that they need to give their sons special advice to cover the likelihood of this happening to them?
What if pittsburghscribe’s point is true, that many instances of actual rape are not reported? (I believe that is true). The psychological state of someone who has actually been raped tends to be different from the state of someone who has an encounter she (or he) simply later regrets. Is someone who was not raped actually more likely to report a rape than someone who was? That seems improbable to me.
I agree that there is a problem that situations need to be differentiated, when they are different. Encounters where both parties are drunk are different from active predation.
I have thought about the issue of multiple unrelated cases with the same accused person. Actually, the existence of such cases is a source of frustration for the people who work in the university office that handles rape allegations–because the people believe that nothing can be done, regardless, due to lack of sufficient proof. It is a complication that several of the complainants may know each other–how could an innocent student defend against collusion by the complainants?
I can’t out-argue the lawyers on this thread. I can only say that I hear about a number of assaults on campus, in circumstances that make me inclined to believe the complainant. My immediate colleagues have never commented to me that they have heard from a male student who said that he was falsely accused. (Proves nothing, though, of course.)
I’m not a FoxNews fan, but this was an interesting segment:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4711634737001/fox-news-reporting-the-truth-about-sex-amp-college
In the arrest referred to in #74, it is likely that the existence of four victims who reported the incidents to the police gave the police sufficient information to lead to the arrest of the suspect (the police believe that there may be more victims).
Perhaps it is significant that, even though the suspect was a college student, the police investigation and action leading to his arrest was the result of incidents near his home town during the summer. Since it seems unlikely that a sexual predator who is that active (four incidents in one summer) and uses a typical method used by sexual predators on college campuses (intoxication) would stop doing so during the school year, there may be other acts, attempts, and/or victims at UIUC. But if the signal-to-noise ratio at UIUC is too low (too much questionable/drunk sexual activity in general, and perhaps a reluctance to report incidents to the police, around a college campus), then that may mean that sexual predators who confine their acts to college campus areas are less likely to be caught, due to the “smokescreen” effect of all of the other incidents.
- On any given weekend night, there may be millions of sexual encounters involving college students, not to mention other college-aged kids, and ranging from almost-chaste kisses to "Dick, Jane, Sal and Spot Make a Porno." Only a tiny percentage of these ever result in a sexual assault accusation that goes beyond the people directly involved. and the vast, vast, vast majority of those are going to be fully justified. Possibly unjustified formal accusations make news and make us pay attention, but you can do a lot of living without coming across one in real life.
To some extent, that’s why a lot of parental and administrative warnings go in one ear and out the other. It’s like when we were warned about the dangers of marijuana in high school. Marijuana has plenty of dangers, but when you exaggerate the risks of something to an audience that has plenty of first- and second-hand experience with it, you quickly lose credibility. Problematic sexual behavior, I believe, is a common part of many kids’ lives, and that has been true probably for a good portion of the history of the human race. Unjustified formal accusations of sexual assault generally aren’t part of kids’ daily experience. They know it’s out there, but they don’t think it has anything to do with them.
- I don't think there's any really effective "soft" advice we can give our sons that would absolutely shield them, short of "never touch anyone anywhere" and "never drink or use drugs." My own version was something like, "Always remember that sex engages emotions, whether people want it to or not. Don't have sex with anyone if you are not willing to take on the burden of her* response to it, as well as your own, and recognize that both of your responses may involve ambivalence, guilt, anger at oneself. And once you have taken on that burden, you should not under any circumstances be a jerk." (* Son's heteronormative sexuality was pretty firmly established by the time of this chat.) That's fine, and I honestly believed that that's what he did, and there's never been any hint of someone claiming he assaulted her. But I think that there are young men on the short list of people who may have been wrongly accused who thought they were behaving according to that standard, too.
- There's a perfect storm of weird stuff happening right now in this field, and it's going to get resolved and calm down over time. You have a bizarre confluence of (a) feminist activists who sincerely want to remove something that harms women personally and holds them back from success in the adult world, (b) feminist theorists (one group of them, not all) who essentially believe that all heterosexual sex is rape, (c) moral and religious conservatives who are happy to support anything that increases the riskiness of sex outside of marriage in the hope that it will deter people from engaging in it, (d) bureaucrats who are anxious to formalize everything they can, but who do not want to adopt inconvenient traditional aspects of formal decisionmaking, (e) college administrators who deeply appreciate the need to cover their butts with artillery being hurled at them from every direction, and (f) courts that are hostile to due process claims in non-traditional areas.
- I am about to say something that sounds more provocative than I mean it to be (but I do mean it to be a little provocative). I completely acknowledge that rape can be devastating to the victim, and I am not using the crutch of saying "real rape" here. I think the threat of sex by force or coercion distorts young women's lives, and that it would be enormously beneficial to eliminate it. But it is not clear to me that the harm of being kicked out of college and labeled a sexual predator is less than the harm suffered by the average accuser in a college sexual assault case. Being kicked out of college as a rapist is not the same thing as being sent to prison for 10 years, but in many cases there is no practical chance there could be a successful criminal prosecution, or even a successful civil lawsuit. Nor should there have to be to punish someone for stepping over the line, but expulsion is a darn serious consequence to apply with essentially no due process.
And I think we are not doing women any great service by insisting that they should have been deeply traumatized by large categories of events that are unfair and hurtful and good to avoid, but not necessarily deeply traumatizing. If one is going to claim – as many do – that 25% of women suffer sexual assault during college, then one has to live with the conclusion that sexual assault in general is not that devastating. Because nowhere near 25% of women graduating from college are devastated.
We had a good family discussion about the Occidental drunken escapade. Even though the guy was found not responsible by police an overly aggressive feminist professor with a political agenda got him kicked out. http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a33751/occidental-justice-case/
Great post JHS. I tend to agree with your line of thinking. It is as uncomfortable to think that our young women can have something life altering occur out of their control that is negative as it is to think that our young men can have something life altering occur that is also out of their control. These are, for the most part, the young educated people that will take their life lessons into their futures and their lives and thoughts about everything will be determined by their experiences. The old adage "you reap what you sow’ sometimes is all I can say to my kids and unfortunately it applies equally to both genders. It’s nice to have a thread about kids and sex where I haven’t been called a misogynist.
^^^ That’s only because I am biting my tongue really hard… and just don’t have the energy to continue in this discussion.
There is a huge downside for a woman making any sexual assault claim on a college campus. Personally, I can think of few things more upsetting than having the details of my intimate life made public. We all know from the few hearing reports that found their way into the press, how detailed the testimony can be. Every action, sound and position is examined and evaluated.
And although the press may be prohibited from publishing names, most on campus will know who is involved. Many hearings involve witnesses and then you have those students who the accused and accuser have confided in. The grapevine gets the rest of the job done. The accuser will be gossiped about and maligned until the rumors circulating bear no semblance to the actual claim.
The accuser will most likely lose many friends as some will side with the accused. And if the accused is very popular, the accuser will likely be harassed or suffer some other form of social exclusion. And after she files, how many men do you think will want to know her? I highly doubt she will be getting too many invites to the semi’s,formals or any parties hosted by men. Basically with the exception of a few loyal friends, in most cases she will be on her own.
So when a woman decides to file I think she is well aware that her life will change drastically, and not for the better. It should be no surprise that so many choose not to report and if they find the courage to do so, they often end of transferring or taking time off.
Agree there is a downside. A woman should be sure and vested in an accusation. The immediate fallout can be minor compared to years of lawsuits and court appearances which can occur even if the woman “thinks” it’s all going to be confidential or simple if she reports it to the Title IX administrator. That is true of anything that happens in life if you are going to accuse another human being of something heinous… as it should be. Also true if you feel you’ve been taken advantage of in a relatively minor and unlawful way - being robbed or pickpocketed is a good example. You are either vested in following it through or not. The choice is very individual but the choice is there whether the crime is big or the crime is small. It isn’t any different from an honor code violation like plagarism. The accuser, the prof or whomever reported need to be vested in the accusation, the circumstances surrounding the accusation and the proof points. If colleges are going to hide criminal sexual assault under the guise of honor code violation there still needs to be some responsibility on the part of the accuser and the accused deserves some basic protections from being falsely or erroneously accused.
The press isn’t prohibited from publishing names. Most media outlets voluntarily don’t publish names of sexual assault accusers.
In this day and age there are no safeguards that “names” won’t get out. As a parent, I would be very, very concerned about this whether I had a daughter or a son. Another good reason to call the lawyer…first, then the parents then the therapist. If I were accusing someone of something criminal but not availing myself of the criminal system, I’d want a lawyer to protect me as best as possible from future civil actions or at least be on my side and on record protecting my rights and watching out what happens to me. Cuts both ways. This Title IX “stuff” is serious stuff and not for the faint of heart if you get caught up in it. Unless the campus is huge, plenty of people will “know”…you can’t investigate in a vacuum.
FERPA prevents the school from releasing the names. Usually in the high profile cases the names wind their way into the press, especially if one party litigates.
No worries @momofthreeboys. There are plenty of young women out there who have the fortitude to stand up for their rights in the face of such adversity.
@Hanna The amount of “I regretted sex, so I decided to ruin someone’s life” cases are statistically insignificant. Kinda like how the risks from vaccination are statistically insignificant.
@StrugglingSenior I’m actually gonna go ahead and stick with the FBI data on false reports.
Just because a case doesn’t go to trial doesn’t mean that a crime did not occur. And just because there isn’t enough information to prove something doesn’t mean it isn’t true. There are a lot of bad people on the street who walked because of technicalities and insufficient information. How that somehow automatically means it was a false report is beyond me. Of course false reporting is an issue when it occurs. But if you’re gonna get up in arms about how detrimental false reporting is with rape, I hope you are that up in arms when it comes to false reports about battery and robbery.
There is no reason for “real worry” or “issue.” That’s just a threat that you and many other men have fabricated in their heads. If your false reporting stats are “true” (and I’m pretty sure they just came from that bogus national review article) imagine the fear that women have when we walk around knowing that 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted.
Imagine what I go through on my campus when the university releases data saying that nearly 1 in 3 women on campus have been victims of sexual misconduct. Those are real fears that should be addressed. It’s women who need protection. And your “men are the real victims” mentality is part of the reason why our substantiated fears are not being properly addressed.
And the statistics you have are on reported rapes, but far more go untouched.
Universities also need to make a greater effort to stop their shoplifters from becoming car thieves. Universities are enabling perpetrators. Less than 10% of men on campus account for more than 90% of the assaults. Male and female students and parents of both should put greater emphasis on sexual assaults on campus so that the few don’t taint the many and so that women are in a safer environment.
It’s beyond me why universities are even allowed to handle felonies, but that’s a conversation for another day.