<p>As long as the government is complicit with big corporations, in tacitly allowing businesses to severely underpay illegal workers and deport very few, I don’t think anything mentioned above is going to be happening any time soon. The government knows, and does nothing.</p>
<p>The illegal worker is great for business! And since capitalism is all about making money, no one is in a hurry to deport, or otherwise regulate illegals.</p>
<p>“Existing laws call for deportation. How am I twisting your words?”</p>
<p>There are EXISTING laws that pertain to things other than, specifically, immigration. Do you really now know that the entire legal system of the United States is not built around immigration? As I posted: “Sometimes deportation, sometimes it means checking validity of social security numbers, enforcing laws that require residency in certain districts for schooling, drivers’ licensing laws, automobile insurance laws.”</p>
<p>Enforcing THOSE laws is what I was referring to and I made that pretty clear several times. What’s the problem?</p>
<p>“The illegal worker is great for business! And since capitalism is all about making money, no one is in a hurry to deport, or otherwise regulate illegals.”</p>
<p>True, which is why I said before that it wouldn’t happen, but I was asked what I would do, so I answered. Rather clearly, I thought.</p>
<p>Zoos, yes, you made yourself clear.
<p>Start loading your car now.</p>
<p>" The laws say the government will deport illegal immigrants once their illegal status is confirmed. "</p>
<p>THat is NOT what I said, Stop twisting and spinning. This is beyond ridiculous. How many ways can I say “Make things so unpleasant here that they will leave” before you get it. Oh, right. You do get it. You just choose to make a deceptive record of my words. Well I’m not going for that.</p>
<p>The current laws will NEVER be enforced! People need not worry about that happening…too much money to be made for the big honchos.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the rest of us feel the trickle down effects of 12 million additional people not contributing taxes and so forth, while using schools, hospitals, etc.</p>
<p>No way will they be deported, and no way will “things be made so unpleasant for them that they will leave”. Even if anyone <em>could</em> make things more unpleasant, “unpleasant” here is still better than the situation from where they came, so there goes that idea!</p>
<p>“No way will they be deported, and no way will “things be made so unpleasant for them that they will leave”. Even if anyone <em>could</em> make things more unpleasant, “unpleasant” here is still better than the situation from where they came, so there goes that idea!”</p>
<p>Well at least if it’s not costing me any money, I care somewhat less.</p>
<p>Zoos – so you’re NOT in favor of enforcing the law. Because the law doesn’t say “we’ll make things unpleasant.” The law says “we’ll deport.”</p>
<p>Sorry, you can’t have it both ways.</p>
<p>“Unfortunately, the rest of us feel the trickle down effects of 12 million additional people not contributing taxes and so forth, while using schools, hospitals, etc.”</p>
<p>Are there about to be 12 million “additional” people? </p>
<p>“Even if anyone <em>could</em> make things more unpleasant, “unpleasant” here is still better than the situation from where they came, so there goes that idea!”</p>
<p>Yup. That’s the “Romney Amnesty” approach.</p>
<p>“Are there about to be 12 million “additional” people?”</p>
<p>Probably more, if you count at least 3 children as the average number born to a Mexican illegal here, and the next wave of 15 million enticed here by this amnesty, plus their relatives and children, then the next 15 million, etc, etc, etc. </p>
<p>And these are expensive immigrants, because we have to provide lots of schooling and free health care. And at least in NYC and LA, they have that pesky high HS drop-out rate, so with the exception of Washington State, where everyone is above average, we are creating a vast underclass. (Although even in Wash State they need government social services.)</p>
<p>Deportation of illegals is nothing new. It happens in droves every day. The US routinely send busloads back south every day and puts other on planes to their countries. All of the people who entered this country illegaly knew all along that deportation was a risk. Many of them have already been deported before - some several times. All of those 12 million illegals being referred to are already running the risk every day of deportation and if they’re caught, that could very well be the result. It’s not a matter of suddenly rounding up 12 million people for deportation. It’s more a matter of deporting them as they’re caught. Getting ‘away with’ being able to stay here as long as they can slip into the border without fear of being deprted will definitely only encourage more to come.</p>
<p>I think zoosermom captured what needs to be done very well in her previous posts. The first steps are to make it less attractive for the people to enter the country in the first place by going after businesses that illegally hire them and by securing the borders. The problem now is that for every person deported several replace them and the numbers keep growing. </p>
<p>It’s impractical to think that the USA can fix the economic problems in all of the countries the illegals are flowing here from. It’s not just Mexico. Mexico needs to fix Mexico and the USA should cooperate as much as practical. The other countries from around the world will need to address their own issues.</p>
<p>“It’s impractical to think that the USA can fix the economic problems in all of the countries the illegals are flowing here from.”</p>
<p>Why is it “impractical” to fix them, but perfectly practical (and acceptable) to cause them?</p>
<p>“Probably more, if you count at least 3 children as the average number born to a Mexican illegal here>”</p>
<p>Taxpaying citizens, too, and they vote!</p>
<p>But I’m perfectly fine with the Romney/Giuliani Amnesty Plan. I also think we should make English the “official” language, just like they have in England…oh, wait, England doesn’t have an “official” language. Oh, what difference do facts make?..</p>
<p>… and they vote Democrat!</p>
<p>I spent most of the day at a conference on this issue. I heard one terrible story after the next about mothers and fathers who were rounded up or caught in various ways - a routine traffic stop, or in one case INS showed up at their house in the middle of the night, etc. One person in particular is 22 years old, and she was due to graduate from community college in two weeks. Most have children under age 10. They are all in custody now, and, the stories of the families separated and the parents cannot even find out who is holding their children - truly horrible. </p>
<p>But the one thing none of these advocates could answer is why did they choose to break the law in the first place? And while it’s terrible about the children, who are U.S. citizens and likely to be sent to foster care while their parents are deported, why would someone have children, and allow those children to end up in such a perilous position? How can a person live from one day to the next, going through the normal business of living, ie working, going to school, taking the children to day care, all along knowing that at any given moment, a routine traffic stop or some other event can make it all go away? </p>
<p>I don’t get it. No way would I have children, and exist in a situation like that. I don’t understand it and cannot get my head around it…</p>
<p>In one situation, the immigrant advocate, a lawyer, said that one woman in custody just wants her young boys back, and to return to Honduras - her experience in custody for the last 30 days or so has been so miserable that she does not want even try to stay in the U.S. any longer. I can only think, o.k. why didn’t you return to Honduras with your children before it came to this?</p>
<p>Another lawyer, an AV rated man from Holland & Knight, was strongly positioned on the side of illegal immigrants, and he tried to say there really aren’t 12 million people here - he actually said no one knows the number, because since they are all undocumented, how can anyone know who they are, let along actually count them…</p>
<p>Last, another advocate in the health care system said that the illegal people in the hospital are “just lying there going to waste” because they’re undocumented. I’m like, they’re what? Just “lying there”? As in,they’re given a bed, but no sort of even minimal health care???</p>
<p>Oh, and really last, a director of an english program at the community college said that they enroll 50,000 immigrants PER YEAR, and, many of them rush over to sign up for the classes within TWO days of arriving in the country, “regardless of HOW they actually got here, their first priority is to learn english”… </p>
<p>Oh - I nearly forgot - the numbers the economic development experts threw out - the impact of U.S. draconian immigration policies - are apparently horrible. The airline industry people actually said that the U.S.'s share of global travel has fallen by 35% since 2002 because foreigners aren’t welcome here…and, the port authority claims it’s starving, because while $16 billion of its revenues come from cargo (commercial) shipping, and only $3 billion from cruises, they’re losing tons of money and can’t pay their bills because of all the security they’re now required to have to try to keep illegal immigrants from coming through the ports…they said there are far too many new laws they must comply with post-9/11, but, no money appropriated to enforce those laws, so they have to find it themselves…</p>
<p>Oh, and then, some sociologist said that illegal immigrants causing more crime is a social myth; the real problem is that illegal immigrants won’t report crimes or help law enforcement because they don’t want to get deported. Then the police stood up and said they don’t want to round up the illegal immigrants; it takes a long time to earn their trust, and, when they’re forced to help INS arrest them, it destroys that trust…</p>
<p>Someone from Michael Chertoff’s staff came along and said that DHS cannot chase the terrorists and drug traffickers because they’re too busy rounding up maids, landscapers, ag workers…</p>
<p>And REALLY last, an incredibly enviably decorated lawyer spoke - he had so many degrees, certifications, accomplishments, honorary titles, etc. his CV if unabridged would surely be larger than the Miami phone book, anyway, he pointed out that his parents were uneducated, maids/landscapers, etc. and that under the provisions of the current bill in the senate his parents would not be allowed to come here…he said we’re ALL immigrants, or the children of immigrants…</p>
<p>And so on. Tangly, difficult issue.</p>
<p>It’s desperation, LTS. Many people don’t even survive the border crossing. People take the chance because they perceive that the alternative is worse.</p>
<p>Well, I can actually see that side of it, too. </p>
<p>The young mother from Honduras arrived here after fleeing some hurricane there. According to the advocate, she received something from INS, she filled it out, sent it back, she moved, INS sent something and the mail never got forwarded, so, she did nothing. Married another person in the same legal mess, had two children. </p>
<p>My first thought was, o.k., so you KNEW you were breaking the law; why didn’t you call up INS or go see the people or do whatever it is you’re supposed to do…</p>
<p>But then I thought, well, what was my experience the last time I needed to call, say, the drivers license people for something…or for that matter the local public school…or ANY governmental office. Even if you were born here, speak clear english, and you’re reasonably intelligent, it’s still a tangly, time consuming process to get your business resolved through ANY government operated office. So how much more difficult - not to mention frightening - would it be for an illegal immigrant. </p>
<p>But then I think, yikes, she broke the law, GO BACK HOME already.</p>
<p>But then I think, but wait a minute. What is this country supposed to be all about in the first place. </p>
<p>The tourism people stood up at this conference and said, when foreign visitors arrive at the airport, it’s not “welcome to the United States”, rather, it’s more like “what the f*** are you doing here”.</p>
<p>And still one more lawyer said that the current bill in the Senate has - get this - over 100 amendments attached to it. What a nightmare. If the people in the senate or 94 of them anyway didn’t even read whatever it was they should’ve read re Iraq, how can we be reasonably be comfortable they’re going to read this bill before they vote on it? Guiliani said it’s 400 pages long, I don’t see how that is possible with 100 amendments, it would have to be more like 4,000 pages long. Maybe he didn’t read any of the amendments…</p>
<p>This is a very difficult and troubling issue.</p>
<p>“Last, another advocate in the health care system said that the illegal people in the hospital are “just lying there going to waste” because they’re undocumented. I’m like, they’re what? Just “lying there”? As in,they’re given a bed, but no sort of even minimal health care???”</p>
<p>This is just not true. What is his documentation concerning this? Hospitals are very tightly regulated per “dumping” laws, and I don’t believe for a second that this is happening. If nothing else, treating the patient frees up a valuable hospital bed. Doctors do not know or care about the immigration status, and if they don’t want to treat illegals, they would not be in an area with a lot of them.</p>
<p>There’s a point where the illegal immigrant advocates begin to delve into fantasy for the sake of the pity factor.</p>
<p>And as for amendments, if the bill were more agreeable, they wouldn’t have proposed so many amendments.</p>
<p>Graham got almost hysterical over an amendment that was added today (yelling, screaming, etc). Something about re-evaluating the preference system in five years to see if it’s working. </p>
<p>That seems pretty benign to me, coming from a social services background; you always want to periodically re-assess. It’s kind of madness to make big changes and not see if they help or hurt. </p>
<p>But for some reason Graham is very strongly opposed either to the amendment itself or the process by which it was added.</p>
<p>Collegialmom, I didn’t believe it for a minute either. And I do agree that special interest groups are going to put spin on things that favor their position - I get that. </p>
<p>But I don’t think the issue is anywhere near close to simple. I don’t think I like the bill, but, I can sort of see how things got to where they are. I think Romney and others had it about right - enforce the laws already on the books. Judiciary can’t even do that, let alone enforce all the fall out that will come if the new bill makes it through…</p>
<p>But I feel sorry for the people. And I actually LIKE immigrants. I don’t know which ones I encounter on a daily basis are legal vs. not, but, they bring a richness and vibrancy to the community that is simply priceless. Even when they’re being rude they’re endlessly interesting. I cannot imagine a community where everyone is forcibly anglicized. </p>
<p>But on the other hand, I don’t want to pay for people who break the law, either.</p>
<p>I lived for years in a community where there were lots of immigrants, generally legal. Some had waited years to get in, and most were very hard-working people whose children were a real asset to the school systems. This is what the US needs.</p>
<p>About 15 miles away, there was another communtiy that had raging illegal immigrant problems, with 40 people living in small houses, sleeping in shifts, driving illegally and causing accidents, and whose children, when they had them (I hope they moved out those houses) were draining the school systems. </p>
<p>Now that I am in an area that was very hard hit by NAFTA and other forces, and that has a high American unemployment rate, I see that Americans are doing the landscaping jobs and other manual labor jobs that are typically associated with illegals in other locales. I actually feel better about the situation here, because I see less exploitation. Many of the landscapers own these small businesses, and plow snow during the winter. There is very little new construction, so those jobs are not around here.</p>
<p>I don’t know how to otherwise reconcile the problems with illegals, except to say that many people would love to work around here, and I think if jobs open up, then Americans deserve first priority. This also will drain the resources less per the government if these citizens have work.</p>