<p>Of course the Elian Gonzalez case was a custody dispute that happened to involve an international border crossing. If the mother had taken Elian from Georgia to Florida instead of from Cuba to Florida, there would have been an “Amber Alert” (or an APB back then) for her and Elian, she likely would have survived and been arrested for kidnapping, and Elian would have been handed over to his father without politicians and activists, across the political spectrum, playing the kid as a pawn for their political ends and without INS agents or even local police having to draw guns to get him back to his dad. </p>
<p>It was a custody dispute – and a pretty clear cut one at that – except that practically half this nation (and practically all of Cuba) went insane and refused to accept that reality because Elian’s case gave voice to their other agendas.</p>
<p>"So – what to do: you legalize the immigrants who are already here, who work, who have educations. "</p>
<p>What do you do with the immigrants already here who don’t work and don’t have educations? These are now the people with whom I volunteer, so this is a very serious question.</p>
<p>Cubans, and I mean people IN CUBA, were bent out of shape by the Elian Gonzalez case because they hugely resented Miami Cubans and anti-Castro proponents telling them that they as a people were not decent parents. That a loving father and extended family in a communist nation couldn’t care for their children, notwithstanding politics.</p>
<p>zoos, if they don’t work and don’t have an education, a legal status could help with both… and if not, it will certainly lessen the burden for the millons who do. That will be a major accomplishment itself. </p>
<p>I have no illusion there is a way to employ/engage 100% of illegal immigrants here. Just like there is no way to employ/engage 100% of legal immigrants and Americans. </p>
<p>And, I’m just curious: what do YOU recommend we do?</p>
<p>"zoos, if they don’t work and don’t have an education, a legal status could help with both… and if not, it will certainly lessen the burden for the millons who do. That will be a major accomplishment itself. "</p>
<p>I respectfully disagree on the first point, and don’t think the second should be a priority (but I respect the fact that you do). The people I was referring to (and, again, using my experience) are people who not only don’t read or speak English, but they don’t speak or read Spanish, either, and have no history of literacy in any language. I don’t believe that they can be contributing members of society in a way that isn’t a net drain on taxpayers for several generations. There are also the gang members and other ne’er do wells who don’t work and aren’t educated. Those folks will not be stepping up, no matter what the immigration laws are.</p>
<p>What I would do is impose harsh penalties on employers, eliminate family reunification provisions and eliminate birthright citizenship. I know that is not going to happen, but it should. But, ultimately, I don’t think there is a need for a great rush to pass a bill that is worse than doing nothing. I would be fine with enforcement and attrition and a real guest worker program that involves stringent background checks and time limits. I’d also like to see incentives for industries, like agriculture, to increase automation. Two things that are often missing from the debate are respect for taxpayers and compassion for the families and towns left behind.</p>
<p>“What I would do is impose harsh penalties on employers, eliminate family reunification provisions and eliminate birthright citizenship. I know that is not going to happen, but it should. But, ultimately, I don’t think there is a need for a great rush to pass a bill that is worse than doing nothing. I would be fine with enforcement and attrition and a real guest worker program that involves stringent background checks and time limits. I’d also like to see incentives for industries, like agriculture, to increase automation. Two things that are often missing from the debate are respect for taxpayers and compassion for the families and towns left behind.”</p>
<p>This is the most cogent thing I have seen written about immigration in a long time.</p>
<p>I have had the opportunity to work with many different groups of immigrants, and I have found that this particular group of illegals does not fit the model of other legal groups in terms of assimilation. They also have not been screened for health or criminal backgrounds. I think that this bill allows an amnesty that is totally misguided and short-sighted. More stringent enforcement and attrition may be the way, although sending people back to their home countries, as is often done with legal immigrants for their visas, could also ease the burden.</p>
<p>"I have had the opportunity to work with many different groups of immigrants, and I have found that this particular group of illegals does not fit the model of other legal groups in terms of assimilation. "</p>
<p>That’s exactly right. I care deeply about immigrants, but I’ve come to sincerely believe that we’ve reached the tipping point. There should be a point at which what’s good for America and Americans comes first and this immigration package, at this time, is not good. Ten years ago, the immigrants I tutored WERE the hardworking people looking for a leg up and proud of becoming Americans and of obtaining a middle class lifestyle. That has changed over the years and is no longer true in way too many cases to discount an an anomaly. I view this as sort of the difference between economic refugees and refugees who are in danger. Both are sad, but only one should be given refugee status in the United States. As yet another side note, my daughter recently did a paper on the gender imbalance in China and as part of that, she researched societies and cultures with rootless males and they have been trouble through history in many different cultures and countries.</p>
<p>zoos,
'What I would do is impose harsh penalties on employers, eliminate family reunification provisions and eliminate birthright citizenship"</p>
<p>– your idea still doesn’t address the central issue of what to do with the illegal immigrants ALREADY HERE. Are you willing to pay to deport 12 million people?</p>
<p>“-- your idea still doesn’t address the central issue of what to do with the illegal immigrants ALREADY HERE. Are you willing to pay to deport 12 million people?”</p>
<p>Actually, my words “enforcement” and “attrition” did address that issue, because I don’t think this needs to be dealt with in a rushed fashion. You may not like how, but I was certainly responsive. I would pay for some large-scale deportations. Numbers? I’m not sure, but big.</p>
<p>“But see, ‘enforcement’ MEANS mass deportation. That’s the problem.”</p>
<p>No it doesn’t. It means many different things. Sometimes deportation, sometimes it means checking validity of social security numbers, enforcing laws that require residency in certain districts for schooling, drivers’ licensing laws, automobile insurance laws. Lots of things can be done legally to encourage people to return home. Something that’s also missing, is respect for the native cultures. Particularly now, many immigrants are indigenous people with a culture that is precious, unique and beautiful. How is that preserved if we just move everyone here? What I would like to see is a sit-down with Mexico where we say, ok, how can we help you make life better for your people AT HOME. I would be in favor of spending a lot of money to do that because I would see it as investment in prosperity, rather than throwing good money after bad.</p>
<p>“How is that preserved if we just move everyone here? What I would like to see is a sit-down with Mexico where we say, ok, how can we help you make life better for your people AT HOME.”</p>
<p>NAFTA was supposed to do that, but instead it just opened up more opportunities for exploitation in their own countries. The accounts of the factory conditions in Mexico, and the staggering wealth of the factories owners, who exploit them, is horrific. Jobs moved there, the Mexican rich became richer, and Americans lost jobs.</p>
<p>“Jobs moved there, the Mexican rich became richer, and Americans lost jobs.”</p>
<p>Yes, and the Mexican elites were able to ethnically-cleanse their country. I don’t want to be a part of that. What I would support would be a serious plan for getting the Mexican economy humming. Regime change? (Half serious there).</p>
<p>Zoos, I guess I’m confused. We’re talking about ILLEGAL immigrants. So, once we establish they are here illegally, what do we do with them? All 12 million of them? </p>
<p>I have yet to hear anyone answer that question, except UC dad, who thinks they all should be deported.</p>
<p>"Zoos, I guess I’m confused. We’re talking about ILLEGAL immigrants. So, once we establish they are here illegally, what do we do with them? All 12 million of them? "</p>
<p>Enforcement and attrition. I don’t think I can be anymore clear than that. If you are still confused, then I can’t help you. Enforce existing laws that we ignore now and make their stay here so unpleasant that many will leave, add some targeted deportations. Technology in industries that rely heavily upon illegal workers would eliminate their jobs, and with no entitlements, some would return home and many fewer would come in the first place. I don’t think this has to be done quickly. This problem took decades to create, we can be patient while our temporary friends leave. We can start by closing the border and eliminating enticements for immigration. Do I think that’s perfect? No. But there is no perfect answer to this mess. What we can do is protect American citizens and legal immigrants as best we can.</p>
<p>Well, I can only conclude, that you are in favor of a massive, government-financed deportation of 12 million people. Because that’s what strict enforcement of current laws call for.</p>
<p>“Well, I can only conclude, that you are in favor of a massive, government-financed deportation of 12 million people. Because that’s what strict enforcement of current laws call for.”</p>
<p>I made my position abundantly clear. You do not need to (mis)summarize for me. If you are having trouble comprehending, that’s not my problem, but don’t twist my words.</p>