What do you think about Illegals getting instate tuition?

Parent Cafe
141

<p>If this country is creating a permanent underclass that will be using government services, and straining educational, medical and law enforcement agencies, then it really has to stop. This is becoming a third world country with a disappearing middle class. Now we have about 15-20 million illegals who largely are under or uneducated. Adding their legal or illegal children then vastly increases the number, plus another 15-20 million sure to come here in the next 10 years, and their childen.</p>

<p>The US simply cannot absorb this kind of burden.</p>

<p>mini: do you have a newspaper article that summarizes the agricultural worker situation there, with the pay and benefits outlined that you are citing, ie the health benefits, safety standards, etc? What type of health insurance do the workers generally get?</p>

142

<p>Growers pay into a fund whereby health care is provided through the Yakima Valley Farmworkers Clinic, Sea-Mar Community Clinic, and Wenatchee Valley Health Centers Housing is very strictly regulated by the State Board of Health (I actually used to be among those who went out on unannounced site visits. The State Department of Labor & Industries (with whom I made those site visits), Washington Department of Agriculture, together the the federal Department of Labor, ensures that all paperwork is current, taxes and Social Security are paid, protective equipment is provided, and that workers can access care through worker’s compensation. The UFW is allowed free and unannounced access to all labor and housing sites. The Department of Community, Trade & Economic Development promotes the availability of jobs out of state (this year they made videos that they sent to Arizona, New Mexico, and California.) Several of the clinics have teemed up with local educational service districts to provide full-day child care as needed.</p>

<p>“If this country is creating a permanent underclass that will be using government services, and straining educational, medical and law enforcement agencies, then it really has to stop.”</p>

<p>First of all, there is no “permanent underclass”. Over the past 25 years, much of the migrant labor force here has “settled out”. They own homes and businesses, send their kids to school, pay their taxes. Many are becoming doctors, lawyers, nurses, and teachers. During the time of highest immigration, the late 1990s, the crime rate throughout the United States dropped massively, in some places with high immigration, as much as 70% (and that includes New York City). Without the labor force, the bottom would drop completely out of the economy in eastern Washington. The Wenatchee Valley Health Centers, with more than 1,000 employees - almost all of them white, would be out of business, and there would be no health care for white folks. Local real estate, retail, and etc. would dry up. Schools would go bankrupt as so many of the workers pay local taxes without sending any of their kids to school. </p>

<p>Now, mind you, I too wish that Al Gore had not decided to become a leading proponent of global pollution and global warming by promoting NAFTA, CAFTA, and the WTO. I think it would be great if the U.S. would provide reparations to the millions of people kicked off their lands internationally, and to repair the environmental damage. (Anyone want to take a trip with me, I’ll show it to you firsthand.) But that ain’t gonna happen.</p>

<p>I don’t feel strongly about the legislation one way or the other. I’m just fine with a couple of hundred thousand more immigrants coming across the border, and in the next two years, a couple of hundred thousand more U.S. citizens will be born, and more of the citizens will reach age 18 and will vote. </p>

<p>“My state is an income tax state, as is my city.”</p>

<p>So change it. You’re a citizen. Change it.</p>

143

<p>“So change it. You’re a citizen. Change it.”</p>

<p>Change what? Obviously you know nothing about New York politics, where the entire state is held hostage by one man. I present to you Sheldon Silver.</p>

144

<p>“First of all, there is no “permanent underclass”. Over the past 25 years, much of the migrant labor force here has “settled out”. They own homes and businesses, send their kids to school, pay their taxes. Many are becoming doctors, lawyers, nurses, and teachers. During the time of highest immigration, the late 1990s, the crime rate throughout the United States dropped massively, in some places with high immigration, as much as 70% (and that includes New York City). Without the labor force, the bottom would drop completely out of the economy in eastern Washington.”</p>

<p>I will again quote the NYTimes article about the Mexican children in NYC below about the very high drop-out rate of mexican teenagers in the NYC schools. When was the last time a high school drop-out went to graduate school?</p>

<p>Perhaps you have an unusual situation in Eastern Washington. But in much of the country the illegals are a perpetual underclass, using government money for programs such as Medicaid, WIC, law enforcement, etc, without paying into the system, either due to being paid cash or being unemployed. Otherwise they use services for free, because ERs and achools can’t turn people away.</p>

<p>From the NYTimes:</p>

<p>“Nearly half of Mexicans in the city {NYC} aged 16 to 19 are neither in school nor high school graduates, he said. At age 14, about 95 percent of boys are in school, but by age 18 or 19, the number is down to 26 percent. For girls, it falls to 31 percent from 96 percent. But the city’s Mexican population — conservatively estimated at about 350,000, including children born here — is so dispersed that there is no political leader focused on this issue, Professor Smith added.”</p>

<p>mini: Do you have a similar article about Wash state and the education figures for illegals and their children? They must be well into the second generation now.</p>

145

<p>“I’m just fine with a couple of hundred thousand more immigrants coming across the border, and in the next two years, a couple of hundred thousand more U.S. citizens will be born, and more of the citizens will reach age 18 and will vote.”-</p>

<hr>

<p>mini - I think ^ this statement, in a nutshell, expresses the TRUE fear of many people in this country.</p>

<p>And again, I will say this. Yes social services are consumed by illegal immigrants. But this is only one side of the economic equation. You can’t reasonably discuss this consumption without also discussing the points made in the Businessweek article regarding the economic “growth engine” that is created by these immigrants. What is important is the NET economic effect is not a negative one. </p>

<p>This is a very interesting thread…good and valuable points made from all angles providing much to think about. I guess my vantage point is that of a Texan born and raised in Mercedes, Texas to parents and grandparents also born in nearby border towns. It is a unique perspective in that we, in South Texas and the Rio Grande Valley, are little ahead of the rest of the nation in understanding the consequences of illegal immigration because we have been dealing with it, and the resulting social and economic effect, for many generations. Again, valid points are made here by all…but I just hope ‘fear’ is not a part of the equation.</p>

146

<p>“This is a very interesting thread…good and valuable points made from all angles providing much to think about. I guess my vantage point is that of a Texan born and raised in Mercedes, Texas to parents and grandparents also born in nearby border towns.”</p>

<p>I’d like to compliment you on your principled, articulate and respectful discussions here. I have learned from you and I think you hit the nail on the head here. The Southwest, I think, has a very different experience with illegal immigration and assimilation from Mexico because of a much longer history and familiarity. Dominicans and Chinese are the largest immigrant groups here, and it’s a comfortable, familiar relationship. I wouldn’t say that I’m afraid of the immigration (although the “Other than Mexico” group scares the heck out of me) on its own merits, but I do see the Mexican border as dangerous, but for me (and I speak only for myself) it’s all about the money. The New York Times article was (surprisingly) accurate. I live in a borough of 500,000 people with only two hospitals. One of which is in bankruptcy and the other is overwhelmed. Since I work so closely with illegal immigrants and others who provide assistance to them, I can say with a clear conscience that illegal immigration is THE major contributing factor to the hospital situation here.</p>

147

<p>“My state is an income tax state, as is my city.”</p>

<p>So change it. You’re a citizen. Change it. --mini</p>

<p>Sales taxes are regressive and weigh most heavily on the poor and those on fixed incomes. Income taxes are better but there should be a wealth tax as well so the John Kerry’s of the world cannot shelter vast wealth behind a modest income and annoy the hell out of me in the process :-). And while we are at it we need to tax some of these ridiculous endowments some of these coleges and universities are accumulating to no good purpose.</p>

<p>Seriously though I do think sales taxes are generally bad. I mean what is the point of taxing soap, toothpaste, and toilet paper? Don’t the poor have it tough enough already?</p>

148

<p>How bad is this immigration bill? Well the Congressional Budget Office report is out. The CBO is charged with giving congress estimates on what the laws tey pass will cost and what the impact will be. It is as bi-partisan as a placed staffed almost entirely by career ureaucrats can be - career bureacrats being overwhelmingly liberal.</p>

<p>The Senate bill will reduce illegal immigration by a whopping 25%. Or to out it anothe way in 2017 we will have another 12 million illegals that will need to be amnestied.</p>

<p>This bill is just about as bad as it can get. It is bad for America. It is bad for Mexico. It is even bad for employers though they are too stupid to realize it. Cheap labor ■■■■■■■ investment and innovation and in pretty short order turns you into a plantation society. But the biggest boondoggle of all is in that 25% number. This bill doesn’t even solve the problem.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070604-061740-4338r.htm[/url]”>http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070604-061740-4338r.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

149

<h2>“It is even bad for employers though they are too stupid to realize it. Cheap labor ■■■■■■■ investment and innovation and in pretty short order turns you into a plantation society.”</h2>

<p>Lowering overhead ultimately has a stimulative effect on business by increasing the bottom line, profitability and a willingness to invest and re-invest. </p>

<p>[And … plantation society? Another one of those anti-Southern buzzwords intended to appeal to emotion, and not logic, I suppose…]</p>

150

<p>“Seriously though I do think sales taxes are generally bad.”</p>

<p>I think sales taxes are bad too. They tax lots of poor folks, in this case migrant workers, for services they never receive.</p>

<p>But if Zooserman wants 'em, well, she’s a citizen and can agitate for change if she chooses. </p>

<p>(As for wealth tax, well, I’m for it, and I’d like to see it be a really BIG one.)</p>

<p>As for the “cheap labor”, I should report that none of you have called me. Can’t I help get your kid a high paying summer job?</p>

151

<p>Mini, how many months a year is the cherry picking job available? Not interested for myself (at least not now), but no telling who I might run into that would be. $15 an hour is more than a public school teacher starts off down here.</p>

<p>Is there a payroll deduction for housing? Overtime pay?</p>

152

<p>What most of the workers used to do was move from asparagus in April (much of it in Skagit County), then to Oregon cherries then to Washington cherries, then to stone fruit throughout most of the summer, steadily moving north, until apple season, which can go to the beginning of November, depending on the variety. Much of the cherry harvest and stonefruit housing is regulated as “temporary”, and is used as a perk by growers to attract workers (at no cost to the workers). Apple housing tends to be “permanent” (with more stringent requirements), and there is a deduction for it. </p>

<p>Where the big money is to be made is in piecework, with a minimum wage floor. Folks who are good at it can make $20 an hour (sometimes more). Those who work the conveyor belts (mostly women) work at something closer to the minimum wage (there are fewer of them), but with large amounts of overtime. </p>

<p>Much of the workforce, especially around the apple harvests, settled out long ago, and is made up mostly of the citizen sons of former migrant workers. There is permanent work in spraying (March/April especially) and upkeep of farm equipment, and of the migrant housing camps themselves. Because so many are now citizens, we are seeing the first election of Hispanics to local city and county councils. But the bulk of the migrant workforce comes up from more southerly climes (especially Texas) where the harvests (often citrus) are earlier - December/January.</p>

153

<p>Thanks, mini.</p>

154

<p>“Lowering overhead ultimately has a stimulative effect on business by increasing the bottom line, profitability and a willingness to invest and re-invest.”</p>

<p>The printing industry didn’t put paper feeders o printing presses for a hundred years because of the ready availability of child labor - printer’s devils. The South failed to idustrialize because first it was addicted to slave labor and then sharecropping.</p>

<p>Businesses do not invest in new technology when labor is cheap and cheap labor usually has a strong Luddite inclination as well. When farm workers began to organize farmers began to look for ways to mechanize. In the long run that was good for the farmers, good for the farm workers, and good for America.</p>

<p>There are about a zillion examples out there of cases where technological innovation was either ■■■■■■■■ or simply not adopted because cheap (and sometimes slave) labor was readily available.</p>

155

<p>This is very true, which is why the neo-liberal Clinton-Gore policies of ensuring that jobs be sent abroad and farmers be kicked off their lands there is bad for workers abroad, causes global warming and pollution, results in unemployment and the loss of industry here, and has a chilling effect on technological innovation.</p>

156

<p>“The Wenatchee Valley Health Centers, with more than 1,000 employees - almost all of them white, would be out of business, and there would be no health care for white folks.”</p>

<p>I believe that much of this care is paid for by Medicaid or Medicaid, which are government programs. I highly doubt that this center is entirely funded by the farmowners. Most low-wage employers depend upon government programs or free care to provide health care for their workers. In addition, I am very sure that their infant formula is provided by WIC, and food stamps are available. Whatever medical services are provided are not all done by local taxes and funding from growers. </p>

<p>If the growers can afford to subsidize a health center with 1000 employees, then they are really making an inordinate amount of money, and this should be investigated as to their practices and financial statements.</p>

157

<p>Here’s a little glimpse of the truth as I and many of us see it. Why we do, and always will have immigrant labor and why much of it is/probably always be illegal. Short answer: because business depends on it. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19076627/[/url]”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19076627/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>"Waves of immigrants, scorned by many people, are so valued by U.S. business that the competition for them threatens the fragile immigration compromise in Congress.</p>

<p>With the government bent on tightening U.S. borders and workplace regulations, competing business interests are lobbying Congress to legalize the foreign-born workers they most need, even if it means hurting other sectors."</p>

158

<p>“The Wenatchee Valley Health Centers, with more than 1,000 employees - almost all of them white, would be out of business, and there would be no health care for white folks.”</p>

<p>Actually, if you look at their website, they describe with very detailed tables how to qualify for Medicaid and also for a Washington State program for pregnancy care. In addition, they take insurances and expect uninsured patients to pay certain amounts out-of-pocket depending on an income formula, or apply for free care.</p>

<p>I think that these programs are great, however, I also think that other govenments should be paying for their citizens to receive care. How about if the Mexican government paid the US federal and state governement several billion dollars a year to educate and give medical care to its citizens? </p>

<p>I know that in many other countries Americans who become ill or injured must pay for their care. In addition, many people from other countries come here for care and pay out-of-pocket. Why are illegals in the US an exception?</p>

159

<p>katliamom - the argue here is not against immigration. The arguement is whether we regulate it or not. Interestingly the liberals who want to regulate everything else in America want an unregulated border - that is unless it is little Cuban boys coming ashore in a leaky boat from a totalitarian state. In that case they call out a swat team to deport him. Funny thing is Elian was actually here legally. Go figure.</p>

<p>BTW the border down there is not just open to illegal immigrants. It is also wide open to drug smugglers and criminal gangs, human trafficers, and potentially terrorists as well. As Idmom has pointed out it is ot just the Mexican border that is porous either. Many illegals and contrband come throw the airports as well.</p>

160

<p>higherlead, contrary to your claim, most liberals (including myself) do not “want an unregulated border.”</p>

<p>What we do want is a little realism and a lot more honesty.</p>

<p>First, we can’t deport 12 million illegal immigrants. (If you remember, Bush couldn’t move a fraction of that number out of New Orleans a while back.) Second, we need many of them. And to send back 12 million and then try go get, say, 7 million of them BACK is – well, silly. </p>

<p>So – what to do: you legalize the immigrants who are already here, who work, who have educations. You give them real incentive to become fully invested in our society. In time, their children will be as acculturated as the children of immigrants past. </p>

<p>At the same time, you also recognize that the border needs tightening up for all kinds of reasons, not the least of them being people with infectious drug-resistant diseases or terrorists with weapons. </p>

<p>It’s not the immigration debate that bothers me and many others. It’s the hypocrisy: people deny the fact that to a large extent immigrant labor – much of it illegal – keeps our country going, keeps food on our tables and at relatively low prices at that. I know, several people here claim they’d be willing to pay higher prices knowing they’re supporting local businesses. But the last time I checked in my western city, the lines were a lot longer at Walmart than at the weekly farmers market that sells fruit and vegetables at twice the price.</p>