What do you think about Illegals getting instate tuition?

Parent Cafe
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<p>“Your son’s $7 hospitality industry job is a case in point that people don’t take the highest paying job; they balance pay with how much they want or don’t want to do the work and what their other requirements are for transportation, location, etc.”</p>

<p>Yeah transportation was a big part of the problem just as it is for many poor urban youth. The hours however were about the same. He is in a different line of work this Summer. It was in the 90’s Saturday and he was outdoors and on his feet for 11 hours.</p>

<p>My honest opinion of the American worker is that he is diligent, productive, and hard working. If you don’t think that is the case then I don’t think you have spent much time working with them… There are exceptions to be sure, but most americans are not afraid of hard work for decent pay and nobody in my family is ever going to grow up thinking he is too good to dig a ditch or clean a latrine or better than the guy who does.</p>

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<h2>“I believe the people in that article were self-employed with a restaurant. The tax number they got was for the business. I’d also wager they committed nine kinds of fraud one kind or another along the way because they are “illegally” residing in the country.”</h2>

<p>higherlead - an ITIN is not a business tax id number. It is an individual tax identification number. As conyat mentioned, more than 2/3 of illegal immigrants do file US Federal Income Tax Returns and do pay FIT…and the method is via the ITIN.</p>

<p>From IRS.gov section on Individual taxation:</p>

<p>What is an ITIN?
An Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) is a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service. It is a nine-digit number that always begins with the number 9 and has a 7 or 8 in the fourth digit, example 9XX-7X-XXXX.
IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA).
ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have U.S. tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code.
Individuals must have a filing requirement and file a valid federal income tax return to receive an ITIN, unless they meet an exception.</p>

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<p>If immigrants are not legal, they should not be entitled to anything except maybe a one way ticket home. You break the law - you are a criminal. No exceptions</p>

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<p>I don’t have a strong opinion on the subject. I don’t like the current immigration situation because of the results–it facilitates an incredible amount of exploitation of hard-working people. One strawberry farmer put it this way; he hates the way the coyotes (the human smugglers) treat people, but if he has a crop rotting in the field that he owes money on–and a coyote pulls up with a van full of people–what’s he going to do? When it comes to undocumented workers, employers don’t have to provide the training, personal protective gear, or other safeguards that US citizens take for granted (and that do save lives). I’ve seen some pretty bad examples of this, unfortunately.</p>

<p>But if you took the exploitation factor out of the picture, I wouldn’t have a strong opinion. The main reason that I’ve been posting the things I have is that it really bothers me to see people base arguments on ULs and other misinformation. And there was a ton of misinformation being thrown around this thread.</p>

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<p>ucdad - I don’t advocate an open border, but I think do think some ideas born of a closed border mentality, like ‘the fence’ are a waste of taxpayers’ money and frankly, will be ineffective. (As many here know, three of my uncles were US Border Patrol early in their law enforcement careers…and I have the advantage of knowing at little background about the many ingenuous ways illegal immigration occurs. Overland, through the desert, is very ‘old-school’…the more likely scenario involves sitting, with black market identification in hand, in coach class on a commercial airliner bound for JFK.)</p>

<p>What I would like see occur is a recognition that a nation of ‘have nots’ sidling up to a nation of ‘haves’ is always going to have a problem with boundaries. It isn’t our responsibility to rehabilitate the Mexican economy, but in the interest of protecting our own nation, it is important that it (rehabilitation) happen and we not impede it.</p>

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<p>You do see how this contradicts your assertion that $15/hr cherry picking jobs can’t exist in Washington State because your son would have hitchhiked there, I hope?</p>

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<p>I certainly hope that wasn’t addressed to me. It would be bizarre, if so, especially given some of the jobs I’ve held over the years. </p>

<p>But regardless of the diligence of the American worker, the fact remains that there are manual labor jobs in dangerous industries that are very difficult to fill with citizens even when pay and benefits are high. (Farming, by the way, is one of the most dangerous industries in the US.)</p>

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I was down in Venezuela one time having lunch with a Venezuelan colleague and Columbian colleague. It was interesting to listen to them get into a debate about illegal immigration only this time it was about Columbians illegally coming into Venezuela. There were the same arguments of both sides as are being voiced here.</p>

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<p>Interesting comparison ucdad. :slight_smile: I think I just look at this whole issue from the economics angle. Economic stability on both sides of a border should be the main worry…everything else shakes out from there.</p>

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<p>“You do see how this contradicts your assertion that $15/hr cherry picking jobs can’t exist in Washington State because your son would have hitchhiked there, I hope?”</p>

<p>Not really. The “farmer” hiring the illegal aliens to pick his cherries isn’t really interested in hiring an Americam who knows his rights any more than the contractors around DC are interested in hiring Black kids from DC when they can hire easily threatened and exploited immigrants. </p>

<p>The Democrats want to screw these people because they think they will be a solid Democratic voting block. The Republicans want to screw these people because they are cheap labor. My employer (I’m in software) is mainly interested in screwing Indians and Filipinos not Mexicans but for the same reason and in the same general way as the cherry “farmer”. He also screws me in the process, but heck I’m old and don’t need much anymore anyway.</p>

<p>I honestly cannot believe both politcal parties can get away with this immigration bill and the disaster that is going to ensue. I have to admit I love seeing the Party that hauled 7 year old Elian Gonzalez back to his gulag at gunpoint wax poetic on immigration. For sheer hypocracy they have always been able to top the Republicans. On the other hand whoever said (was it Stalin, Lenin, or Felix Derzhinski?) when they hane the last capitalist there will be one to sell the rope probably had the Republicans in mind. They’d sell their first born for a buck, and cheap too.</p>

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<p>open border</p>

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<p>“It isn’t our responsibility to rehabilitate the Mexican economy, but in the interest of protecting our own nation, it is important that it (rehabilitation) happen and we not impede it.”</p>

<p>But it was our right to set up a set of relationships which forced hundreds of thousands off their land and headed to our borders, in the name of American profits, yes? </p>

<p>"
Not really. The “farmer” hiring the illegal aliens to pick his cherries isn’t really interested in hiring an Americam who knows his rights any more than the contractors around DC are interested in hiring Black kids from DC when they can hire easily threatened and exploited immigrants."</p>

<p>You have no idea what you are talking about. The tree fruit industry is probably the most highly regulated industry in the United States, and I can say that personally, because I was one of the regulators. And because of the work of the union up here, cherry farmers won’t dare break any of the rules. </p>

<p>But if you want to find out, give me call and I’ll find you a job - a good paying one too - about double the minimum wage, complete with health insurance while you’re working, protective gear, workers comp, temporary and massively regulated housing, guaranteed pay into your Social Security.</p>

<p>“Yeah transportation was a big part of the problem just as it is for many poor urban youth.”</p>

<p>If you need transportation, it can be arranged. If you think it’s cheap labor, get yourself over to Yakima next week and give it a try. And if you have a college degree and are unemployed, you’ll be welcomed as well.</p>

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<p>higherlead - do you just refuse to read any of the links provided here? </p>

<p>Your position seems to be evolving as the pages of this thread grow in number, from condemnation of illegal immigrants for their lack of ethics and respect for our laws to lamentations about tax evasion and social services to the current comments implying illegals need protection from the evil Americans who would “screw” them over. It’s quite confusing. </p>

<p>mini - Did I ever say that? Perhaps some details are in order. Are we talking the demise of the small farm in Mexico?</p>

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<p>Idmom - none of those are contradictory. Illegal immigrants break the law by comming here and then frequently break even more laws by working illegally once they get here. They put an enormous strain on social services, depress wages, take jobs from low skill native americans. In the process they are exploited by employers, gangs, coyotes, politicians etc.</p>

<p>The United States has enough problems of its own. It doesn’t need to import socially needy low skill workers and their extended families by the tens of millions. It isn’t helping us and it isn’t helping Mexico or any of the many other countries they are coming from.</p>

<p>If some kid tries to “illegally” enter some college by forging documents everybody here would be going ballistic. There was a thread that went for days on that poor dean of admissions who 25 years ago listed some degree she didn’t have on an employment app ad she was all but crucified by some of the same folks defending border jumping now.</p>

<p>If this immigration bill passes the borders are going to be flooded. At the moment the economy is strong and unemployment is very low but things never stay that way forever. When the economy turns and we have 20 million low skill workers and their dependents most of whom barely speak English and have little or no experience with democratic government it is going to be a recipe for social discord.</p>

<p>At the lowest selfishest level if I wanted to live in El Salvador I’d move there rather than have it move here. But that doesn’t mean I don’t sympathize with and even admire the people coming here.</p>

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<p>I hope that this article wasn’t already quoted on CC: </p>

<p>The article quoted below is from the NYTimes on 6/4/07 about Mexican immigants in NYC, and actually shows how poorly they are doing at having their children reach higher education levels. The article exults the fact that the average number of children among Mexican immigrants is now “only” 3. However, it is apparent that these children are born into poor families that are going to be using Medicaid, WIC, public schooling , etc. The HS dropout rate among Mexican teenaged males in NYC is cited as 76% and females is 69% among the children of Mexican immigrants in NYC. Sort of shoots the idea of these being rapidly upwardly mobile immigrants. I suspect this is probably the same in LA. It really is a very expensive proposition to build such a low-wage, government -dependent, undereducated portion of a society.</p>

<p>From the article:
"Census data show that Mexican immigrants in New York have the least schooling, the lowest per-capita income and the lowest rate of English proficiency of the city’s immigrant groups. But Ms. Galvez, who teaches at New York University, said she had been impressed by the extraordinary cultural strengths and swift adaptation of these young parents.</p>

<p>“Families are deciding to have, as they say, the number of children they can care for,” she said. “Earlier, it was about having as many children as you could possibly feed because you needed them for agricultural labor. Now, it’s not just about giving them food, it’s about communication and education and love.”</p>

<p>For women like Hanet Cortes, 26, a Mexican mother with a daughter born in New York and another due soon, schooling is a primary concern. “An American diploma is worth something all over the world, while a Mexican diploma is worth nothing here,” said Ms. Cortes, who also is a patient at Lutheran Medical Center.</p>

<p>Educating such children to their potential will not be easy, said Robert Courtney Smith, a sociologist and author of “Mexican New York: Transnational Lives of New Immigrants.”</p>

<p>“On the one hand, Mexicans are the hardest-working people I have ever met, and many children of immigrants are jumping into the middle class in one generation,” Professor Smith, who teaches sociology and immigration studies at Baruch College, wrote in an e-mail message. “On the other hand, Mexicans will present a particular challenge for the educational system.”</p>

<p>Nearly half of Mexicans in the city aged 16 to 19 are neither in school nor high school graduates, he said. At age 14, about 95 percent of boys are in school, but by age 18 or 19, the number is down to 26 percent. For girls, it falls to 31 percent from 96 percent. But the city’s Mexican population — conservatively estimated at about 350,000, including children born here — is so dispersed that there is no political leader focused on this issue, Professor Smith added.</p>

<p>“What is desperately needed is some targeted intervention that will help fight the high dropout rate among Mexicans,” he said. “Because it is the first large cohort of young Mexicans to come of age in New York, we can make a huge difference if we intervene now.” </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/nyregion/04births.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/nyregion/04births.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>“What if they were largely replaced by ‘legal’ guest workers and immigrants?”</p>

<p>What happens when the formerly-illegal are demanding minimum wage and benefits? Will they no longer pick Mini’s cherries, either? Or will the costs of those goods and services rise along with our taxes? Will we then just find another group of people to come illegally and pick Mini’s cherries and then have a formerly-illegal, uneducated and unskilled underclass receiving expensive entitlements AND a whole other illegal group with all of those problems?</p>

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<p>“BIG dollars get paid. In my state, totally from sales taxes”</p>

<p>My state is an income tax state, as is my city. Totally separate. We are hugely taxed in New York City and I’m sick to death of it.</p>

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<p>"While I do understand this concern, I just don’t agree. People come here illegally because of the obstacles to legal entry, many of which need to be removed. "</p>

<p>I respectfully disagree with this. many of the specific subset of illegals that I tutor have told me in no uncertain terms that they have it good “in the shadows” and aren’t interested in becoming legal. Their children are legal, they have taxpayer-provided medical care, they are paid off the books and can do banking, have the Matricula Consular card. There is no reason for this particular subset to ever get legal and they are not going to do so. As far as surveys done in NYC and this area, that seems to be very much the opinion, and as benefits such as instate tuition are allowed, there will be less reason for them to pay money, submit to background checks or do anything else.</p>

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<p>"why block off our neighbor mexico? "</p>

<p>Previous generation of immigrants didn’t expect to be supported from cradle to grave as this generation does. I do not want to pay for that.</p>

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<p>“It isn’t our responsibility to rehabilitate the Mexican economy, but in the interest of protecting our own nation, it is important that it (rehabilitation) happen and we not impede it.”</p>

<p>I would be completely in favor of a large infusion of money and time to get the Mexican economy on its feet, so that its people could live productive lives in their own countries. Did anyone but me see the website of the women who make crafts in Mexico begging the US to help them stop all the able-bodied men from leaving Mexico? The absence of a whole generation of men is not necessarily a good thing on many levels.</p>

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<p>“The article quoted below is from the NYTimes on 6/4/07 about Mexican immigants in NYC, and actually shows how poorly they are doing at having their children reach higher education levels.”</p>

<p>These are the people that I work with personally, of my own choice, and have done so for 20 years.</p>