What else we could agree on

Dad_II · March 7, 2012, 10:07am

Most of the posts on CC revolve around three subjects: Money, ranking, and stats. Many a times, the same thing is being argued simultaneously in two or three threads. Many of the same things have been said over and over again by different words. I think it is time that we set the base line and get consensus on these three major topics.

Middle class: While the medium family income is US is around $50K/year, I would like to think the CC group would have a higher medium. Because those who are seeking higher education for their child(ren) probably have a higher % of two parents families, a higher% of professionals, etc. than the general population. Then there are different regions with vastly different COL.

So, could we have a consensus for this? Is $35 – 150K/year middle class on CC?
Debt: Do we agree that some debt, i.e. about one year average field specific salary, is o.k.?

Savings: Do we agree saving for college is the right thing to do?

Ranking: This should be fairly easy. 
Do we agree that individual program and fit is more important than the school’s overall ranking? 
Do we agree that there is no a significant different in UG education among those schools in the CC top school list? 
Do we agree that IVY schools are not the only “top” schools?

Stats: Do we agree that once you reach certain levels, i.e. SAT 2250 or above and ACT 33 or above, there is really no difference for admission purpose? 
Do we agree that you should not compare GPA between different HS? 
Do we agree that V in one particular school, 2400 SAT and 8.97689 GPA do not guarantee H admission?

Do we agree that you should not apply ED if you have FA concerns?

Do we agree that you should always find a safety (academic and financial) that you kid would possibly attend?

Do we agree that it is the student who will make the difference not the school he/she attends?

Do we agree that, not matter how difficult it seems now, come May 1st, everything would work out?

What else we could agree on… …

bovertine · March 7, 2012, 10:12am

I disagree.

j/k.

Good luck on your quest for harmony. But bear in mind, this is the internet.

emeraldkity4 · March 7, 2012, 10:14am

*Most of the posts on CC revolve around three subjects: Money, ranking, and stats. *

You mean you missed the colonoscopy thread?
;)

bovertine · March 7, 2012, 10:19am

LOL.

After a holisitc review, my Gastroenterologist told me I had a million dollar colon. He ranked it #1, and showed me the stats to prove it.

Colonoscopy and college admissions, more similar than one might think.

Sorry DadII. I’m done disrupting your thread. :)

Hunt · March 7, 2012, 10:22am

I’ll bite. I actually disagree with a number of the things on your list:

I think this is relative, and plenty of people with incomes above 150K consider themselves to be middle class.

I think in some cases more debt might be appropriate, depending on family circumstances.

Many people seem to think this should be true, but I don’t believe it actually is true, based on my review of results threads for top schools.

Well, it might be OK at a school that claims to meet full need, and if the school’s own calculator suggests they’ll meet your need.

Not entirely. I think students can make mistakes and choose schools that will hold them back.

From your lips to God’s ears on this one.

jym626 · March 7, 2012, 10:23am

IMO, most of the posts on cc revolve around “what are my chances”. Perhaps you mean that the parent threads are moreso about the other issues. Doubt we’ll ever see concensus on many of these issues. Do you mean the median income? Why does it matter what we would consider “middle class”, and what numbers are you using? Income (earned/unearned/deferred compensation/investments/gross/net, what about self employed)? Household? What about COL in different areas? The range between an arbitrary number of 35k vs 150k is vast, and depending on the other variables mentioned, your low end # might fall in your “dirt poor” category. For many, $150K is well to do.

thumper1 · March 7, 2012, 10:25am

Dad II…if there were a consensus and greement on these issues, there would no need for the many discussions on thes forums!

Go over to the financial aid forum…you will see families from many different income lefels and family types.

Debt for college? Are you saying that debt for college should be one year of someone’s starting salary? I don’t happen to agree. I think the max debt should be what the Stafford loan limit is.

The vast majority of families do NOT have college savings for their kids. While this might me nice, it is very unrealistic for many families to do this.

Different strokes for differnt folks.

I would agree that NO ONE is a guaranteed admit for HYSMP etc…unless they are the son/daughter of the president OR a huge developmencontributor…or have some unbelievable hook.

Depends…if the student can get an early read on financial aid…and is applying to a school that guarantees to meet full need…this is not an issue.

Agreed on this one…EVERY student should have at least one school on their list that they will attend, and can afford to pay for, and is likely to be accepted.

Usually…but there are some exceptions.

yes…and nothing is forever. If it doesn’t students transfer all the time.

What else we could agree on… …

RMGsmom · March 7, 2012, 10:39am

We can agree there’s a wealth of infomation to be gained from this site.

SteveMA · March 7, 2012, 10:50am

DadII-are you a middle child :)

I don’t agree with your dollar figure for “middle class” without defining what is middle class and taking into consideration cost of living for each area. $150K here would be well into the upper middle class/lower upper class rankings defined by ability to afford a home above median price, ability to save for retirement, ability to not have to worry about day to day living expenses, etc. In other parts of the country, $150K is bare minimum you need to live in a safe neighborhood and hope to have money at the end of the month.

I do agree that people in high cost of living areas are at a true disadvantage for financial aid as there really are no real cost of living adjustments in the FAFSA and that people in lower cost of living areas, in general, pay less for college as a result.

saintfan · March 7, 2012, 11:04am

If I had to pick a benchmark to define middle class it would be the income level on which a family of four could survive with decent, secure housing, health coverage, reliable transportation, food, public school fees and incidentals, and enough for the modern basics of a wired world. That amount is very different from community to community. In our area, a University of Washington study pegged the minimum income to meet these requirements (I think assuming employer based health coverage) is 65k. At that level or even slightly below it there is no margin for error in terms of emergencies, large outlays for maintenance of home, cars, etc. Living on the razor’s edge or financial viability might meet the government or world definition of middle class but I would like to put that number at just above the hanging on by one’s fingernails level. 
After those basics are met, additional income to a point reduces stress and can make some of those perks possible like enhanced activities for kids, vacations, plane tickets for college visits etc. While the 150k families might, indeed, be middle class, it would be a mistake for them to ignore the gap in “disposable” income. If you accept the 65k basic needs figure for the moment as needs met but $0 disposable income, the 150k family would have 85k of disposable income. That’s huge in terms of the ability to absorb variations on school fees, emergencies, etc. On another thread someone referred to 4k as “pin money”. For the 65k family it would be a fairly substantial amount. Again, I’m using 65k as a stand-in number for that basic needs benchmark, and in this study basic middle class needs included home computer access and high speed internet, not poverty level provisions. Please no comments about wants vs needs or fancy cable packages.

Many people who are not individually high earners get to that number with two working adults in the household.

MomfromKC · March 7, 2012, 11:27am

35k is dirt poor in NYC, Boston, DC and Cali. 150k is extremely comfortable in NE, IA, KS, MO, OK, and AR. What we really need is a complex formula factoring in at least COL for your state if not your zip code.

I think we can all agree that the what to pack and how much stuff will fit in a dormroom; how to embarrass or avoid embarrassing your child at drop off and during tours; dumb reasons your kid took a college off the list and the other fun things that get posted here are funny!

Pizzagirl · March 7, 2012, 11:34am

You simply can’t compare across different parts of the country.

Of course. But those facts were never really in dispute. The only people who seemed to think there were meaningful differences were those who were newer to the country and didn’t quite understand the plethora of riches in American higher education.

It doesn’t matter if “we” agree; it matters what adcoms say, and adcoms have pretty much both said and demonstrated time and time again that there is little difference above a certain threshold, AND that “perfect” grades / scores do not guarantee admission anywhere.

bovertine · March 7, 2012, 11:42am

I don’t know if there is no difference, but I personally don’t believe that anybody actually *believes * there is no difference.

If that were the case, then if somebody scored 2250, and by some magic lottery they could automatically increase that score to 2350 by paying, say $15, they would say “No THanks. There’s absolutely no difference, it’s not even worth $15.”

Some people may believe that, and it may in fact be true. But I seriously doubt there are very many who would not pay a few bucks for an automatic score increase from 2250 to 2400.

Marian · March 7, 2012, 11:53am

No. For the student who is not yet committed to a major – or the one who plans to major in a subject that is offered everywhere and taught reasonably well at pretty much every top school, such as psychology or economics – and who doesn’t have strong preferences about such things as size, urban vs. rural, or presence or absence of Greek life, ranking could be more important.

No. For those students who do have specialized interests, there can be huge differences among the programs offered at schools on that list. (This is why engineering majors often prefer Cornell over Penn and business majors often prefer Penn over Cornell.) Also, the liberal arts college experience is substantially different from the university experience.

Yes. Certainly, Stanford, MIT, and Caltech rank with the top schools in the Ivy League, and a whole bunch of schools, such as Northwestern, the University of Chicago, Washington University in St. Louis, Georgetown, Duke, and the very best of the state universities, such as the University of Virginia or UCLA, rank with the remaining Ivy League schools.

No. For example, the top student who finds himself, on May 1st, with no choices other than the local community college because of poor financial planning or the lack of an appropriate safety school is not likely to think that everything has worked out.

In some respects, yes. In others, no. For example, a really good on-campus job recruiting system can make a huge difference in a student’s immediate future after college, and it’s the school that determines the quality of on-campus recruiting, not the student.

NJres · March 7, 2012, 12:51pm

I generally disagree. Middle class is a state of mind. Some of my best friends are middle class, but I am not sure which ones they are. Are the alternatives to middle class lower class and upper class? upper middle class? I have at times been accused of being classless (I don’t think it was a compliment)

I wanted to agree with your point that saving for college is the right thing to do, but I know some people that found it completely unnecessary to save for college, so I think it is an individual decision, but certainly there are many people who do not save for college who should (have).

Rankings? Again, an individual decision. If someone thinks school rank is important, then to them it is important.

I do agree that perfect stats (2400 SAT + HS valedictorian) does not guarantee admission to Harvard, but… so what? If someone with those stats disagrees, and applies to Harvard, they may or may not get accepted.

And no, everything doesn’t always work out,

And shockingly (this was not explicitly one of your points) , in my opinion, everything does NOT happen for a reason. Sometimes stuff happens for no apparent reason at all.

Can we all agree on motherhood and apple pie? :D

Pizzagirl · March 7, 2012, 12:57pm

Do we agree that there is no a significant different in UG education among those schools in the CC top school list?

Fair enough; I’m just thinking at sort of the global, 10,000-foot level, looking in aggregate, there really isn’t much meaningful difference. Drill down to a given program, yeah, sure, there very well may be.

JHS · March 7, 2012, 1:21pm

The foregoing embodies an interesting contradiction. Those for whom rankings are important seem to believe universally that rankings communicate important, objective information about how other people view an institution now (and, implicitly, are likely to view it in the future). I can’t remember a single person saying, “Yes! I have researched this ranking methodology carefully, and I agree that it does an excellent job balancing the many factors that contribute to or measure the quality of the educational and extracurricular experience an institution provides, and it fairly represents differences in institutional quality that are important to me.” Much more common is “Dude! Bulge-bracket IBs only recruit at top-[whatever] colleges!”

It’s tough to say that the importance of rankings is subjective. (I think they are important and meaningful, within wide bands. However I also think USNWR’s methodology could use a bunch of work.)

ED: Based on my developing understanding of ED, I would argue that it’s ALWAYS wrong to fail to consider ED if you have financial need and one of your top choices on other grounds both offers ED and generally meets need. The worst that can happen is you have to turn down a college that accepted you because its financial aid offer is inadequate. But lots of people will get accepted with adequate aid, or once accepted will be able to negotiate for adequate aid. The downside is pretty minimal – that if you had waited and been accepted RD, the school would have done more to meet the competition (or you would have a more realistic idea of what “meeting the competition” meant, and thus were more likely to accept an offer that seemed unacceptable). I think that’s probably a risk worth taking.

“Don’t apply ED if you have aid concerns” is an example of folklore that is actually wrong.

Marian · March 7, 2012, 1:34pm

We might agree that both are associated with weight gain. ;)

warbrain · March 7, 2012, 1:56pm

I’m curious why you think this? I’m willing to bet that on average someone with a SAT score of 2400 is more likely to get into a top school than someone with a SAT score of 2100. But unless it’s true for a single person, his or her chances of admission increases with an increase in SAT scores, this just seems to imply that those with higher SAT scores are more likely to have strong applications overall. And I’m not sure how you can see that an increase in SAT scores while keeping everything else the same increases chance of admissions just from reading results threads.

SteveMA · March 7, 2012, 2:00pm

warbrain-that would be true if the SAT score was the only thing under consideration but there are other facets they look at. The SAT 2400/36 ACT kid that graduated from our high school last year got rejected from most of the schools he applied to but the 30ACT/2200 SAT kid got into every school–Harvard, Yale, Brown, Cornell, Notre Dame and others. The second kid was just a better example of what the schools really want. I am sure other people can give other personal examples.

What else we could agree on

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