What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

<p>“In your case, wouldn’t it have been easier to match your daughter with a college if you knew which colleges valued her particular interests?”</p>

<p>Well, we made good guesses apparently. But I think more importantly, that’s not the way we proceeded. She had already decided that rigorous academics were her priority, a very selective U was her priority, a “smallish” U was her priority, a college or U near a culturally rich metropolitan area but hopefully east of the Mississippi, was her priority, & particular academic programs/strengths were, as well. She also preferred a campus atmosphere to match her personal preferences (not wild, loud, binge-drinking oriented). She also wanted a different cultural milieu than what she had grown up with, & she wanted a rich mix of backgrounds. We proceeded from her choices outward, not the other way around. </p>

<p>I understand your viewpoint, but I honestly don’t think what you envision would occur by such public announcements from colleges, if indeed they had “preferences” for certain e.c.'s. Frankly, I don’t think, overall, they do have distinct preferences as to categories of e.c.'s – except to admit a quota of students who may be interested in their possibly high-profile college newspaper, a well-respected competitive literary club, a nationally known debate team, an annually touring orchestra, and definitely, definitely, certain sports teams. (I know I’ve left lots of campus “needs” out.) Anyone can investigate these campus needs: by visiting campuses, by talking to officials there, by visiting departments, & even by visiting the college websites themselves. That’s not “secret society” stuff.</p>

<p>The frustrations of students & families in college admissions are mostly the result of a huge imbalance in supply & demand (i.e., for certain categories, locations of colleges). For example, going back to sports for a minute. I’ve posted some counter-opinions to the “sports is most important” theme, because I think it’s irresponsible to promote the idea that sports has a predictable edge over all other e.c.'s, as an e.c. There are simply too many high school athletes applying to “top schools” (the phrase in the OP). There are probably more fine athletes than all the Ivies + Georgetown, Swarthmore, Chicago, etc. can admit, if they filled their entire freshman classes with athletes (which they wouldn’t). The same goes for music & other popular e.c.'s. Colleges are looking for a combination of many qualities. E.c’s are only one factor, & they are seen relative to everything else in that applicant’s profile, & relative to everyone else’s application.</p>

<p>Greater transparency will not alter the fundamental economic principle above. No, I’m not for secrecy, but the playing field changes year to year not because of deliberate trickery on the part of colleges, but because the players are different every year. How could my D, or I, predict when she was 5 & 6 yrs old which colleges she would apply to? Her decision for e.c.'s at a young age did not have anything to do with such predictions, nor should it have. In fact, I’ll be honest with you. We were both very concerned by her h.s. soph yr. that she would get into no particularly selective college, for one reason alone: We were told over & over by lay “experts” (ha!) that colleges wanted “leaders.” Well, she was no “leader” by conventional standards of leadership, particularly as that term is often paired with extroversion & displays of enthusiasm. However, I learned that such pairing is a stereotype, & that leadership comes in many forms. She was in fact viewed as an academic leader & a quiet leader (by example, more than by overt displays); she also did take quiet initiative in her school. She’s just not the kind of person to run for office, etc. But as someone posted on another thread, followers are also needed. “Leadership” is a term that should always be surrounded by quotes as it applies to college admissions. My D has met her share of similar introverts in college already. Perhaps the terms enterprise & initiative are more accurate for some applicants.</p>

<p>So there’s no admissions “formula” for any given year, let alone a formula that can be projected & predicted for a subsequent year. And even if one happened to have the right combo of qualities for one yr to please a committee, one could have the bad luck of geography or ethnicity or impacted major among the thousands of similar applicants to that school, which would sink an application into the rejection pile “unjustly.” And if a college “announced” that particular e.c.'s would be favored in the Year _____, or right now, do you not think there would suddenly appear in the admissions offices a gigantic oversupply of applications with those e.c.'s on them? I hardly think that would give an “edge” to students with that e.c.; the effect would be the opposite: that college would increase its reach factor considerably, & the admit rates for those with that e.c. would plummet. (The colleges want balance, not a domination of one e.c.)</p>

<p>Finally, subjectivity is always an element, for which there is no predictability. Even for the U.C.'s, a human being is reading that essay, not a computer or calculator. A perspective, a bias, a life experience is brought to that reading.</p>

<p>No, I hardly think the system is perfect, but I do not think that greater transparency will result in predictability, let alone perfection.</p>

<p>

I didn’t find that any mystery in deciphering this info – in fact, last summer it was one of the little jobs that my d. delegated to me. Sample question: “mom, find out what colleges will let me do choreography?” My response: go online, search college course listings under dance for “choreography” or “composition”; check “student life” section of web sites for club listings, do search for “dance”. </p>

<p>Obviously if the college has strong offerings in an area of interest, then it is likely to place value on it. If it has no offerings or very weak offerings, then it is not going to mean all that much to the ad coms … except for the general benifit of showing commitment, discipline, passion, etc. </p>

<p>I think you misconstrue the entire process if you are looking for a college shopping list where colleges list what they are looking for, or some sort of central repository akin to a jobs bank where colleges would post openings for bassoonists. It doesn’t work that way: the colleges want variety, they want diversity of interests, they want balance – so the best thing a kid can do sometimes is just to be different … but you don’t get to different by developing studying numbers to see what colleges seem to like the *most[/]. </p>

<p>The basic admission criteria are publically available, published via the common data set. I found the IPEDS COOL site to be valuable - <a href=“College Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics”>College Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics; – also the Princeton Review & US News sites. Plus doing generalized internet searches – “college dance programs” on Google immediately brings up the Artslynx site: <a href=“http://www.artslynx.org/dance/univ.htm[/url]”>http://www.artslynx.org/dance/univ.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It isn’t rocket science: the colleges want students to fill all many niches on campus, so all you have to do is find out which colleges have all the niches.</p>

<p>Calmom, you may have inferred too much based on limited data. Your D is clearly very special. Travelling across country, visiting colleges alone and having some impressive interviews could be the reasons for the admissions offers. I seriously wonder about the value of her interest in dance. Maybe it is different in California, but in the NE dance is a very common EC. A very high percentage of girls do dance beginning at an early age. Many are on pointe by age 11 or 12 and quite a few continue at least through HS. Those who are really interested often do not go to college. By college age they are trying to make it as a professional dancer. Since Barnard draws about 50% of students from the NE, it is not surprising that they offer courses which meet student interests. I am not sure they need one more student with an interest in dance.</p>

<p>CalMom,</p>

<p>I wasn’t planning on commenting on this thread again (to the delight of many, I’m sure), but I would like to clarify my point with you. I have read your posts for some time and I admire your opinions, so I wanted to make sure we are on the same page. Then, if we still disagree, so be it and obviously I will continue to respect your opinions.</p>

<p>My initial point was that I think there should be more transparency in college admissions. I believe that transparency is good in almost every aspect of a democracy, and especially in something as important as education. </p>

<p>Secondary to that, my point was that transparency might actually be a win-win for colleges and students. For colleges, it would enable admissions committees to maximize the chance that the type of students they want will apply. For students, it makes it more likely that they can find the schools that are interested in the qualities they possess and want to pursue. </p>

<p>I completely agree that we can go online and find out the schools that meet our kids’ interests. If my son wanted to go to business school, it wouldn’t be hard to find the top programs and focus on them. But what if we found out that 1 of the top programs had changed its admissions preferences and wanted to place more emphasis on students with specific ECs, or students from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds, or some other specific criteria? I would want to know that because it might affect my son’s likelihood of acceptance. While he might still apply to that program, he might not. Either way, it lets us make a more informed decision and I think that’s the point of transparency.</p>

<p>I live in NE and I do not see large numbers of serious dancers (ie, those dancing 12+ hours a week) who continue through HS, certainly not in comparison to sports or music.</p>

<p>Colleges offering serious dance classes to nonmajors (ie, Barnard rather than Indiana University) are also few.</p>

<p>edad, based on the profiles of other admitted students to Barnard - and what Barnard writes itself, I’d have to say that they clearly place great value on a strong dance background. It seems like half the students admitted are dancers – that could be an exaggeration, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers are something like 40%. Barnard has an extremely strong dance program and a small student body to draw from, so obviously they need a certain critical mass of dancers coming in every year to sustain the program. Just like colleges need violinists for their orchestras.</p>

<p>Of course my daughter had many other strong attributes that make her “special”… but she also had significant weaknesses on the academic record she submitted. Weaker test scores, weaker coarseload offset somewhat by foreign exchange experience, etc. Definitely a well-lopsided candidate. But the success she had with admissions is an indication that she probably did a pretty good job of figuring which colleges were looking for students like her. </p>

<p>I agree with you that there are plenty of dancers around, and there are plenty of colleges that don’t want or need them. But Barnard has made a big investment in dance facilities and faculty when is located in the same city with Julliard, Tisch, and the Fordham/Alvin Ailey program… so it stands to reason that they will value that particular EC over, say, basketball. </p>

<p>But that goes back to the question of how do we find out where the ECs will be valued – and that means we start by finding colleges that have strong programs related to the EC, but which are not so strong that the competition becomes overwhelming. </p>

<p>To DRJ4 – you can get information about what colleges are looking for by reading their strategic plans – often this is available on line. I admit you have to wade through a lot of florid language to make heads or tails of what they are really saying, but it can give you a sense of what they value. I realize that by “transparency” you probably would also like to see this info consolidated in an easy place to access – some sort of central database where college admins would post short summaries of what kinds of students they particularly want for the coming year. But I’m not sure that admissions can be simplified in that manner, because as I said, I think that most colleges want to cast a really wide net.</p>

<p>CalMom, thank you for your helpful response. </p>

<p>I would like to see each college provide a statement of the criteria it uses in admissions together with statistics from prior years’ classes. For instance, I suspect most colleges have a basic formula they use to run an initial screening of applicants. Something like: </p>

<pre><code> GPA (weighted or unweighted) x SAT = Z
</code></pre>

<p>Colleges typically have a cut-off value for Z beneath which no applicant will be accepted absent special circumstances. I would like to know that value but colleges won’t tell us because they want thousands of applicants that they can turn down. Most colleges, let alone elite colleges, want to say they had 10,000 applicants and accepted 1,000, because it makes them look sought after and enhances their US News ranking. But, at the very least, it is a waste of resources to entice unqualified applicants to pay the application fee with no hope of admittance. Of course, anyone that wants to apply - whether they seem to meet the criteria or not - can still apply, but many will look elsewhere.</p>

<p>I understand that colleges provide the range of GPA, SAT, etc., but most of these are so nebulous that it leaves the door open for almost every applicant to believe they have a chance. Unless they have special circumstances (an EC or personal profile the college desires), they don’t have a chance.</p>

<p>You know DRJ4, you can extrapolate – we know the 25-50% range for SATs & usually ACTs at most colleges; we can get data as to average GPA. The common data set also lets us look at it all broken down by percentages: i.e., how many students are enrolled within specific ranges. We can safely assume that the cut off point is at the level where we see significant fall off in enrollment. </p>

<p>I think the reason that the colleges won’t give a cut off figure is that there truly is none – if the circumstances are compelling enough, they’ll reach. And I also think that they get very few applications overall that are at the bottom end of the spectrum. The Ivies might get more than their share simply because they are famous enough to attract some people with totally hopeless cases… but the rest of the top schools require a little bit of research – and once you do that research, you can see when you aren’t in the running. </p>

<p>Which means, ultimately, the majority of the applications the colleges get are probably also within their requisite score ranges, so they don’t need a cut off. Rather, if an app comes in that is weak in all areas, rejection is fairly automatic – but if it is weak in some, strong in others, then it is always possible that the student will get in despite the weaknesses.</p>

<p>Would the distribution of ECs over the 4 years in question affect admission? I would have a much larger concentration of activities in my senior year compared to my first 3.</p>

<p>It does seem that a strong background in dance was a very positive factor at Barnard. We also experienced several examples where opposites attract. Our visit to Bard was very interesting. Bard is almost entirely liberal arts with most students majoring in social sciences or “multidisciplinary” studies. When my D expressed an interest in the sciences, she got very special treatment. The admission director wanted to interview her before the tour started, he made sure that the most senior department chair was available and rescheduled our planned interview at the science building to a more convenient time. At the end of the day, he met with my D a second time and gave her some tips about what to include on the application. He all but promised admission and very good merit scholarships. My D was not interested in Bard, but I think it is no coincidence that she was admitted to a very selective program where she is the only girl among the dozen or so other students. Sometimes it may help to have a background that obviously fits the available programs. Sometimes being an unusual applicant can help and the fit occurs because the college is interested in developing some diversity. After the fact, maybe we can draw some conclusions and believe we understand. During the selection and application process, there is often not much transparency. In addition most students apply to schools they want to attend. They do not evaluate from the perspective of the school.</p>

<p>Good Day to all parents !</p>

<p>We are Indian family residing in Dubai,UAE.My son, Neil has just passed ICSE ( 10th grade) & currently studying in 11th.</p>

<p>He is preparing thru Princeton classes & is planning to appear for SAT & TOEFL within this year.</p>

<p>1) Courses & Selection criteria - Given his interests in Biology,Biotechnology & Genetic engineering , I would like to check as to what are the main criteria / procedure to enrol him at good colleges. </p>

<p>Do these courses offer future scope within US ( earning big bucks… )</p>

<p>He is also interested in Computers…how best should he choose the field of engineering ?</p>

<p>2) Extra-curricular certificates - Under extra-curricular activities he is good at painting, horse riding & playing guitar. Is a certificate needed from the places where he goes to learn / practice ?..</p>

<p>3)Cost & Financial Aid - Appreciate your guidance / advice on how much the course would cost approx. & how best to finance (at least part )of his education.</p>

<p>Would his chances of admission be less if he applies for the aid ?</p>

<p>Any other relevant information is welcome that will help us in deciding his admission…</p>

<p>Appreciate your advice…</p>

<p>Thanks & best regards</p>

<p>Shashank Vengsarkar
PO Box 17135,Dubai,UAE.</p>

<p>If you/your child is interested in a particular school, do some due diligence and track down the quotes in the school publications from the school’s Dean of Admissions. The language spoken gives clear clues on their objectives, goals, etc. They use many buzzwords that can cause one to say “what the H*** is that?” but you’ll be able to decipher their message.</p>

<p>At least you’ll have a clue as to what to say in the essay and what you can add to the community their building.</p>

<p>Thanks for your prompt & positive response…atleast part of my worry is over.Could you advise what is hot in US, would Biotech/Genetic Engineering offer much scope…</p>

<p>You may want to start a separate topic. You may also want to consider posting in the International forum since may of your concerns may best be address by those who are knowledgeable about international issues.</p>

<p>I am a ballet dancer, and i’ll be dancing at princeton next year. i am positive that my commitment to dance was the main factor in my acceptance. They have wonderful dance both on campus and in the town itself (not to mention the accessibility of NYC by train directly from campus). they are looking for highly trained ballet dancers to develop their program.
in the past several years, the graduating seniors from my studio/company (2-6 are in each class) have gone to top schools including harvard, dartmouth, swarthmore, uva, william and mary, barnard, and nyu. they have also entered companies and conservatories (UArts). we are all excellent students who take multiple IB and AP classes, yet have also attended top summer ballet intensives such as Suzanne Farrell, Washington Ballet, Alvin Ailey, ABT, San Francisco, Houston, Rock, CPYB, Boston, Balletmet, Richmond, Princeton, LINES, NCSA, etc…</p>

<p>Looking up colleges’ strategic reports? Way to really make elite college admissions the province of the insiders club! That idea would only occur to someone working in higher education; the rest of us are either unaware that such a thing exists or would asume a report like that would have to do with maintenance schedules, capital improvements and the like.</p>

<p>And even if we read on a report that a school was interested in recruiting students who fence since they planned to begin a program and hire a fencing coach, etc., I’m not sure this would be as helpful as we think. The end result could be that the student would be sacrificing a good “fit,” for admission to a “better” school. For example, when college shopping with my S we identified (by instinct–no stategic reports) a school which would be likely to be very interested in a student like him. Why? Because they don’t have many like him there now. The result: he is admitted with a fabulous scholarship. But when he visits, the atmosphere/student compostion does not appeal to him at all. This makes sense, because if it were the type of school that would appeal to kids like him, they’d already have a lot of them and wouldn’t be needing to offer great scholarships to lure them in. Similarly, if you’re a great fencer who wants to engage in the sport in college, you may be better off braving the stiffer admissions competition by applying to schools with an already strong and established fencing program.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the fact that this thread exists means there is confusion about what colleges are looking for. Maybe schools need to clearly spell out their mission and better describe the type of student who would thrive there. Average test scores are not enough information.</p>

<p>Thanks & pl advise how best could I do it…</p>

<p>shashank, I’m not ignoring you. I just don’t have any info for you. I’m sure someone else will.</p>

<p>Back to one of the topics here. Information. I have read the posts by those here who seem to think that the schools need not give information beyond test scores and grades. I am not convinced. I just can’t understand how more information would not be useful. I agree that no one could use the information to insure themselves a place and that much of the information would not really tell applicants "how to be admitted.’ I also agree that there would be people who would misuse the information (try to "become’ an ideal applicant – which isn’t really practicable anyway). Yet, I still think more data would be a good thing. </p>

<p>BYW, I like that some schools give more information on grades and class rank. Knowing that x% of acceptances have a class rank of 1, y% have class rank of 2, etc. (of those applicants with class rank) and how many of applicants had class rank at all (info given by Brown, for example) is very useful. For those kids who go to schools that do rank, they learn that being in the top 10% is not enough for Brown. Looking at that data, an applicant will learn that being ranked in the top 5 is very important and being in the top 2% may be necessary. This information helps applicants better assess their chances, which helps them in casting their net to include other schools. </p>

<p>The same information on ECs might be used the same way – or not. Without seeing that type of information, I find it hard to decide how useful it would be. Maybe the information would be indecipherable. Who knows? Having that information would be a start to determining whether anyone could make good use of it. </p>

<p>As far as 'what colleges say" about their preferred applicant, good data to go along with those statements would help applicants decide how much of these statements are fluff or misinformation or noninformation, if any.</p>

<p>Regarding the value of dance as an ec:</p>

<p>I also do not see a large number of serious dancers in D’s hs. When she started dance at age 5, there were at least 100 girls who started with her. By the time she graduates, she will be one of 5 or 6 left on her level at her dance school. In her hs, there are maybe 3 serious dancers in her grade. Out of those 3, only she is a top student. One of them will certainly go on to dance as a career. If you compare that to the number of violinists or pianists, there are many more musicians (let alone varsity athletes). I don’t know why a college wouldn’t value the dedication it takes to dance 2 to 3 hours a day after a full day of school and sports (and still be a top student). How would that be different than the dedication required by most athletes? And dancing in a group certainly requires some of the same teamwork required by sports. Furthermore, most colleges, including HYP, have numerous dance groups for which they need dancers. I recognize that sports at most schools would have priority over dance, but I can only see dance training as a plus for an otherwise strong applicant. For those of you that think dance is “too common” of an ec, do you have any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that having dance as a “passion” hurt an applicant? Are there many dancers who are also top students?</p>

<p>I think how much influence a student’s ECs wield, is dependant largely on the size of the school to which s/he is applying. For example, when I did admissions at a school with 10,000 or 15,000 undergrads they could care less if Bobby or Sara was class president or Captain of the soccer team or an outstanding flute player, unless that student was applying specifically to the music school. There are enough kids in the incoming class so that leaders and special talents etc. are ensured based on the general competitive nature of the applicant pool. They’re ALL in National Honor Society, Key club and play (often more than one) varsity sport and are usually captain.
On the other hand, a school where there are only 500 or 1,500 slots available for the freshman class, admissions officers do need to hone in on those leadership activities. In other words, they have to make sure that they don’t have an orchestra full of flute players and therefore DO look at the individual talents more closely. This, of course, is assuming s/he meets the basic academic requirements, unusual or self initiated activities can definitely make a candidate more appealing.</p>