What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

calmom · May 12, 2006, 5:47pm

To the extent that we are talking about elite admissions, I’d argue that part of what puts someone in the running is the ability to find things out on their own, to think proactively and do appropriate research. I don’t think families need to hire admissions counselors. I ordered the skinny little Harry Bauld college essay book off Amazon - the one written back in the 80’s – and gave it to my daughter. She read it, and upon reading the book, produced the sort of essay that could have gone into the book. There are plenty of how-to books around, and the colleges seem quite willing to send out lots of free information. You can actually tell a lot from a view book about how a college sees itself – yes, it’s hype – but it still gives a sense of what type of students the college wants.

I just don’t think the Ivies and other elite schools are looking for the kind of kids who need an instruction manual in order to figure out how to live their lives in high school or how to best present themselves. They don’t want “average” students - they want exceptional students.

My guess is that some parents think that there is a trick to it - that there is something they can do to make their ordinary high achiever into an Ivy candidate. And I think that to the extent they push their kids to follow a well beaten path, that it is probably self-defeating – you end up with a very impressive resume that looks exactly like all the rest. Hard to stand out from the pack that way.

I do think Soozievt’s client – the one with the 2.7 GPA and Yale on the list – is an example of a student that does need more information. But the information that family needs is an understanding that Yale is out of reach for them – they need to be redirected to appropriate colleges.

TheGFG · May 12, 2006, 6:22pm

“I just don’t think the Ivies and other elite schools are looking for the kind of kids who need an instruction manual in order to figure out how to live their lives in high school or how to best present themselves. They don’t want “average” students - they want exceptional students.”

So then why did you give your daughter the essay book? I guess you must have thought she needed a MANUAL. If she was truly exceptional and had taken challenging courses in high school, wouldn’t she already have learned how to write creatively and well? Wouldn’t she have been exceptional enough to write a unique and revealing essay by using her own intelligence to reason out what might intrigue colleges? Why did you feel she needed to read a book about it?

The same reason why students “need” test prep. courses, I suppose. Because it’s not just a common essay or common test for which all schools fully prepare students. Thus even the best and brightest of kids may need professional help to do it well enough to gain admission to the elite schools. And that is exactly what I object to, because that fact will always mean students with economic means have an advantage. Parents with education and money will realize they need to pay the SAT tutor, the essay editor, and the college counselor, or at least buy the kid some how-to manuals. But the average parent of an exceptional kid would have no reason not to assume their child is exceptional enough to get into HPYS all by themselves. And shouldn’t they be?

I personally know of some outstanding students with all the right attributes and credentials–including take-charge initiative–who still felt that they were inadequate to the task. They may not have been inadequate in reality, but as people try to make sense out of what has become more competitive and seemingly random, they don’t want to risk trusting their own instincts about how to present themselves. This is a shame and in my opinion means there’s a problem somewhere.

calmom · May 12, 2006, 6:33pm

I’m saying that the student doesn’t need the info from the COLLEGE, precisely because it is easy to find out from other sources, and certainly not more from the colleges themselves in an area like, “what ECs” should the student do.

soozievt · May 12, 2006, 8:25pm

I think Calmom is saying a resourceful student may wish to look at a book about the college essays and what sort of essays are along the lines of what colleges are expecting. A student can be an excellent writer but just not aware of the style of essay that the application essay is meant to be. It is a very different sort of writing than they usually do for school (or even on the SAT writing test). They have to talk about themselves and show who they are an basically sell themselves. How to go about that is worth reading up on and seeing some samples, just like the first time you do anything…you find out how to do it first. You don’t have to have money to do that. Go to the school guidance office and see if there are any books on college admissions and/or college essay writing. Just like for the SATs…you don’t have to have a tutor or take a class…get 10 REAL SATs and take practice tests under timed conditions…that’s all one of my D’s did! We also bought the Bauld book. I realize not all parents are resourceful and maybe not all kids. But this is one time when really exploring the process matters. Understanding concepts like “reach, match, safety” or how to go about getting effective recommendations, how to write up an activity list, how to write a college essay that will show something about your personality, etc. are all things that someone embarking in this process ought to get a book and read up or find CC (best of all) and for some, it may mean meeting with a college counselor who understands the steps of the process.

And you know what? You can have done all the “right things”…excelled at school, be valedictorian, get high SATs, have signficant ECs with high levels of achievement/recognition…and STILL not get into some of the top schools in the land. My kids knew they were qualified enough to be considered at the top schools on their list. But they were also realistic and knew that at some point with colleges that have low admit rates, you can be just as qualified as the next person but not be chosen…there is some luck of the draw or if you fit a need in the grouping…quite a bit of subjectivity that can’t be entirely predicted. So, we found no need to analyze why one top school didn’t take them (If I recall…GFG may have said her son got defered at Yale and then denied…so did one of my D’s), and they just knew ahead of time that this outcome was likely given the odds but not because they were missing something or could have done something better on the app. So, I don’t think it is like some knew to do X and some did not and if you had only done X (written about such and such on the essay, for example), it may have made a difference. We looked at it differently. If you have what it takes, you are gonna get in some places. But with selective admissions, your ticket is not gonna necessarily come up with every school. So what? You can only go to one and there surely is more than one where you can be happy. I know my kids are real happy at their colleges. We didn’t do a lot of analyzing. We paced out their admissions process, learned what we could and they put their all into the visits, the contacts, and the applications (and of course their school work). They didn’t go nuts over the SATs. They took them twice. They improved a lot the second time and passed their goal which was good enough in their eyes. I read many posts on here where kids had SATs even higher than my kids who talk about retaking them. My kids did just fine. It is the whole package and not any one thing.

College admissions is an overwhelming venture. It is for most people. Some arm themselves with information. Some students have parents who help guide them through the process and equip themselves with resources. Some have no idea how to go about it and engage a counselor. I really do not think you have to have oodles of money just to apply, other than the app fees and testing fees. It helps to have funds to visit. The kids at a disadvantage are ones who are going at this ALL on their own with no support person…a parent, a guidance counselor, a paid counselor. It is a big decision and also involves many tasks. It helps to have someone guiding, discussing, and supporting you through the process. I do feel badly for kids whose parents are wholly uninvolved. I still believe, however, that someone who is trying for very selective schools, ought to be resourceful and at least read ONE book about the process. I would do that about any important thing I was doing for the first time…example, planning a vacation to a new area. This is an even bigger decision. I don’t think one needs money or a counselor but does need to devote lots of energy into learning what is involved and if at all possible, having an adult be there for support. There are some who flounder and have no clue what they are doing but with effort, anyone can learn. CC boards are free and there is a wealth of information RIGHT here with loads of knowledgeable people ready to lend a hand, share expertise or experiences. That and some books worked for me when looking into colleges with our oldest.

epiphany · May 12, 2006, 9:50pm

GFG,
While I will grant you that there are some students who “should” get in (on their merits, and without paid help) who don’t get in, but from what I have heard (self-reported, students + families personally, + students + families CC) that group is the minority of the “rejected” group. It just seems that there are far greater numbers of students with excellent credentials, beautiful application packages (non-profesional in nature, but well-thought out), excellent essays, etc. who do not get in to top-tier schools which academically are match schools for them – for reasons unrelated to “not knowing how to do it” (i.e., not benefitting from ultimate transparency – however broadly or minutely that is defined). I wouldn’t even say that a quarter of the “rejects” from top schools are rejected for not knowing how to present themselves, which e.c.'s to pursue, etc. But let’s suppose for a minute that a full 25% of college applicants to top schools are clueless about such things – and that transparency would “even the playing field” for them. (Instead of 75% of clued-in applicants, 100% are clued-in.) What do you think the result would be? Let me tell you: since those schools now have approximately 3 fully-qualified freshman classes applying each year, those same schools would then have 4 fully-qualified freshman classes applying each yr.

About 2/3 of the maximally qualified applicants to top-tier schools are rejected each year. It cannot be that a group so large is so impaired as to how to present themselves & prepare themselves for those colleges. Those 2/3 are rejected for reasons (I’ll bet the colleges can confirm this) mostly not related to the quality of the applications or preparation, but for the reason of a diversified freshman class. Top-tier schools want enormous variety in each class – within the parameters of a qualified class. There’s no advance disclosure that will be of help in beating the odds – when the odds cannot be anticipated except in a “gross” way. (ie., one knows a particular school is courting or receptive to certain majors, or one gender, or has made an announcement about a particular direction they seek for next yr, etc.) For example, a science-oriented friend of ours knew that MIT was esp. hoping to attract females when she applied (not “secret” knowledge). She wanted engineering, she had many assets to her app. (although she was not Val, she was one of the strongest students in the class, & was committed to science); one of those assets including many engineering workshops. She was accepted EA.

TheGFG · May 12, 2006, 10:19pm

epiphany: good post. Your suppositions seem reasonable to me. But since none of us knows why one applicant was chosen over another, neither you nor I can truly make a case either way. I guess I’d just be happier if I were sure that an exceptional student were disqualified because of some impersonal process you label “odds” rather than because they weren’t “clued in” or professionally packaged.

Do any of you know of any student who asked and was told by a college why they were rejected? I only know of one. The reason given was that his class rank wasn’t high enough.

soozievt · May 12, 2006, 10:21pm

Epiphany wrote:

"About 2/3 of the maximally qualified applicants to top-tier schools are rejected each year. It cannot be that a group so large is so impaired as to how to present themselves & prepare themselves for those colleges. Those 2/3 are rejected for reasons (I’ll bet the colleges can confirm this) mostly not related to the quality of the applications or preparation, but for the reason of a diversified freshman class. "

I couldn’t agree more. You can have done EVERYTHING “RIGHT” with or without full transparency from the elite colleges and many many many will still be turned away for reasons Epiphany wrote above. There need not be a rhyme or reason but just the luck of the draw if at Elite College X, Great Applicant #1 was needed to round out some aspect of the class more than Great Applicant #2. Then over at Elite College Y, for some luck of the grouping in the class, Great Appicant #2 was attractive, and taken instead of Great Applicant #1. Which student did it all “right” or “better”? Both did. Odds as they are, they both were good enough for Elite College X and for Elite College Y but only got into one of these and could never predict which of the two would come through and possibly unluckily, neither could have come through. But if they are a Great Applicant, then there is a chance that Elite College #3 comes through. And gosh darn, Almost just as Elite Colllege #4 comes through and the student is happy as a clam. In fact, State College Honors College may also come through and Very Selective Other College also comes through. Great Applicant is so good and attractive to colleges, SOME of the Elite or Highly Selective colleges will likely come through but it is unlikely, given the odds, that ALL will come through.

TheGFG · May 12, 2006, 10:46pm

soosievt: Do you think there’s any basis at all in fact/observed trend to the specific tips that I’ve heard counselors give kids about each Ivy, such as Ivy X likes risk-takers, Ivy Y likes it if you’re really enthusiastic about their school, and Ivy Z wants to know you’ve overcome adversity before? I had felt that surely this is way too simplistic, but my S and I did think it rather interesting that he and the two other students from his HS most similar to him in personality and course selection got in to the same Ivy.

kevster1001 · May 12, 2006, 11:02pm

interesting post

TheGFG · May 12, 2006, 11:22pm

Maybe this kind of thing could reflect the bias and preferences of the regional admissions person who pre-screens applications?

epiphany · May 12, 2006, 11:29pm

GFG,
A few responses to your last post:

(1) Actually, the public does often know that exceptionally qualified students were rejected, & why they were rejected. No, we don’t know all the histories, journeys, & tributaries of those applications (& certainly not all of them). However, many current & ex- admissions officers have discussed & even published such histories: accounts of the highly qualified, making it even to the last cut, eventually bumped because College X “needed” (or wanted) someone less identical to a student who just went to the Accepted pile & graduated from the same h.s. & possibly was the same gender (as the reason). Some of these decisions come down to the wire – as reported by admissions officers, current & past; some of them are agonized over, & a virtually arbitrary decision has to be made at some point. However…

(2) The reverse is also true, as soozie just pointed out. That same rejected student will possibly fill a niche in a similarly selective college, by the very reason that the student is so highly qualified. (College X can’t use him; College Y, the equal, can.) And please keep in mind that there are students who shine academically (The Val + 2400 type), but have lackluster, “cookie-cutter” or “the wrong” e.c.'s (whatever the latter would be), or let’s say “unlucky e.c.'s” (for this yr.) who will probably be accepted to at least one very selective college unless he or she truly blew it with the app. The students who moan & groan on CC about how only “weird” or unusual e.c.'s are noticed by admissions committees, & who have instead the “standard” e.c.'s (popular instrument, common sport, etc.) – more often than not get into at least one very selective college. It may not be H (if that’s their favorite); it may be Y or P; or vice-versa. It may be Chicago rather than Georgetown (or vice-versa). I know that from what’s reported by freshman & sophomore students at selective colleges working admissions after April 1st (wooing those students). A very large # of the students called do not have specialty e.c.'s of an unusual nature, or an e.c. that was “diclosed” or “announced” as needed by a University. OTOH…

(3) If there are 500+ seniors in your own h.s. class, most of whom want to go to H (for example), and a large proportion which also look quite similar academically & ethnically, you can count on your odds going up for admission if you are indeed unusual in one or more ways (from those other seniors). I said unusual, not with a particular e.c. as opposed to some other e.c. – just something diff. from all the other seniors in the class. In itself that would also be no guarantee of admission unless you were at least both equal to those other seniors AND had qualities which H (or College Y) appeal to that college. Most colleges care that their admittes actually thrive & excel, once enrolled. They know there is much greater chance for that if the fit is right, from both the student’s & college’s viewpoint. Someone already said this earlier. I know that CC students often insist that they’re basically having love affairs with a certain college, but in fact that college has a better idea if the love attraction is mutual, and will work.

What I’m trying to say is that an applicant sufficiently different from his or her senior class in his or her locale, but who the college judges will fit less well in the environment than an applicant from the same school without a niche e.c., will tend to choose the student with the better fit.

I could see that it might be helpful to learn after the fact the “why” for one’s own rejection, but that also opens up a can of worms, for the college & the student (regret, remorse, guilt, despair, anger), when the better approach may be to try to be philosophical about the lack of control most applicants have, and to remember the CC mantra of Love Thy Safety (just in case). I don’t think disclosure will appreciably help one’s chances for acceptance, because you do not know who your competition will be (except for your own school). Nor, for private colleges, do you really know what was written about you (I know some teachers & GC’s show recs to students; it’s a practice I don’t approve of, but in any case, students often – usually – don’t know what’s in the competitors’ recs). There is just so much lack of ultimate control that a fractional increase in one element of control (IF that were possible) seems inclined only to set up the student for disappointment.

DRJ4 · May 12, 2006, 11:41pm

I can’t understand the resistance to requiring that colleges publish basic admissions standards.

soozievt · May 12, 2006, 11:45pm

TheGFG (I do so like your posting name, btw),
I suppose one can find “trends” but these just would not be hard and fast rules because truly every elite school really seems to want a diverse group of students. But as with any college, it is about “fit”. So, for instance, students who are attracted to Middlebury, likely are not as attracted to NYU. Students who like Brown, may also like Wesleyan or Vassar, for example. I am not aware of some of the “trends” you are mentioning like “overcoming adversity”…as being specific to certain colleges (that example, however, can make for an interesting essay that could make for an attractive candidate at any selective college…and in fact, is appealing over someone who had everything come easily or handed to them).

I do think it is simplistic to think of X characteristic and match it with Y college. But if you think in terms of overall fit, there are qualities that might match up. For instance, at Brown, a student who likes to take initiative in his studies, is a self directed learner, has high expectations for himself but isn’t competitive, who craves intensity of learning, yet also is significantly engaged outside the classroom, enjoys independent studies, etc. may be the type that is a good match with the learning environment of that college.

What I think is very important, is that a student articulates some place on the application, a very specific descriptive rationale of why he/she wants to attend X College. The student should demonstrate that he/she really has explored facets of that college and how he/she fits in there.

So, while I don’t think a certain “profile” means a yes or a no for a particular college, I do think that students self select their fit with a college and the college also tries to ascertain the student’s fit with them. So, for example, I think there are certain types of students that I know that may be attracted to Brown. They are a diverse lot but have certain aspects in common as mentioned above, that dovetail with the environment at Brown.

I don’t think it is as simply as X trait matches X college. But a student wholistically should be a good match with the particular campus culture and also demonstrate why they think they are a good match.

I don’t think the course selection that you mentioned is specific to a certain Ivy, etc. I think a very strong college preparatory curriculum, taking the most challenging coursework available at your HS would dovetail with a wide variety of colleges. Students who seek to challenge themselves are attractive at all the elite colleges.

Your observation that those with a similar personality from your HS got into the same Ivies…it is hard to say. Most Ivies have such diverse students but it is not far fetched that they have some commonalities because while it is hard to say who picked whom (the college picked the student or the student picked the college) but in either case, there was a “mating game” going on. MOST applicants apply because the college appeals to them as matching specific personal criteria and then the college also is picking students who they feel are a good match up. So, it is not far fetched that those who end up accepted have some common traits, while still being a diverse lot of interests, etc. The only exception I can think of are college lists like I see SOME students on CC have where they apply to like ALL 8 Ivies or some kind of list like that, which seems to have no rhyme or reason other than prestige, as the schools have little in common. Usually, someone who likes Dartmouth, might not like Columbia.

But for those whose college lists consist of schools that meet their personal selection criteria, it is no wonder that those admitted also have certain common traits. Not sure if this makes sense but that is more how I see it than necessarily a simple one specific “if you have done X or are like X, you will get into Z Ivy.”

epiphany · May 12, 2006, 11:51pm

DRJ,
…and I don’t understand the resistance to reading college websites.

“Basic admission standards” are published. Not just in common data sets, but more fluently in “accepted freshmen profiles” and similar locations on the Admissions Page of most colleges. Sometimes it’s in the FAQ page or section. And often it’s the reps themselves, showing up at rep visits open to the public, who state what kind of a record is typically needed (often beyond the “basic admissions standards”).

I didn’t think the discussion here is really centering around whether there should or should not be disclosure, but whether, & how much, disclosure (knowledge) makes a difference in admissions results to a truly signficant degree with such a qualified, crowded applicant pool.

(Correction: over-qualified, over-achieving crowded applicant pool.)

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 12:10am

Here is the current admissions profile for Harvard University, taken from the website:

"What kind of admissions criteria does Harvard use?
There is no formula for gaining admission to Harvard. Academic accomplishment in high school is important, but the Admissions Committee also considers many other criteria, such as community involvement, leadership and distinction in extracurricular activities, and work experience. We rely on teachers, counselors, headmasters, and alumni/ae to share information with us about applicants’ strength of character, their ability to overcome adversity, and other personal qualities–all of which play a part in the Admissions Committee’s decisions. "

That is so nebulous it is useless to the average person. If it truly is the criteria the admissions committee uses, I pity them. But you and I both know it isn’t. They have specific guidelines that permit them to winnow down the applicant pool to a manageable size that likely will receive a more subjective review.

While a dedicated applicant might be able to make an educated guess as to the baseline admissions standards, no one knows for sure where that is outside of the admissions committee. It is secret, but there is no reason it couldn’t be made public.

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 12:15am

For those who are interested, here is Harvard’s published statement regarding ECs:

"How important are extracurricular activities in admissions decisions?

Each case is different. Harvard seeks to enroll well-rounded students as well as a well-rounded first year class. Thus, some students distinguish themselves for admission due to their unusual academic promise through experience or achievements in study or research. Other students present compelling cases because they are more “well rounded” – they have contributed in many different ways to their schools or communities. Still other successful applicants are “well lopsided,” with demonstrated excellence in one particular endeavor – academic, extracurricular, or otherwise. Some students bring perspectives formed by unusual personal circumstances or experiences. Like all colleges, we seek to admit the most interesting, able, and diverse class possible."

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 12:56am

By the way, I don’t mean to pick on Harvard by posting its admissions guidelines instead of another college’s. It was the first place I looked and, to Harvard’s credit, the guidelines were easy to find.

epiphany · May 13, 2006, 1:03am

LOL. Looks as if H Admissions has a major case of CYA…

Since my D was never interested in H, I guess we didn’t examine that admissions page too carefully (at least not when she was doing searches). But again, we drew our information about the colleges on her list from many sources, including the ones I named previously. We tended to seek several information sources for every college. Any that she was seriously interested in, we definitely went to the rep visits, and/or visited the campus in person (her, not me). We also talked to alums (recent & distant), read info on CC, carefully watched EA and RD decision threads on CC. We also listened & took counsel from her h.s. teachers, who, based on published track records (ie. the school’s Naviance scattergrams), believed my D would get admitted to the U’s she was applying to. The teachers were hardly prescient; they just validated for us that those were probably excellent colleges of choice.

In any case, when we went to 2 local rep talks by 2 diff. Ivies, the reps discussed e.c.'s in particular. I mean, they didn’t even need to be asked; they knew that was topical; they knew there would be questions; they knew it was a major factor in admissions. No, they did not say, “We’re specifically looking for students who’ve completed 500 hrs. of on-site community service post-Katrina, or post Sri Lanka disaster,” or “If you’re a timpanist, you’re in business.” They said, “We’re looking for signs of long-term commitment to an activity of personal passion, and btw, a student should be prepared to explain why he or she is so passionate about that activity, & in how that passion has been shown.” Also they said, " We want to know whether you’ve shown any leadership in your areas of interest." They also gave examples of how leadership could be evaluated. (There was variety in that dept.) One Ivy made a very big deal about character. They said that what kind of a person you were would be examined carefully, would be somewhat evident in your application itself, in the choices you had made so far in your life, in what your teachers, counselors said about you, & in how you presented yourself in an interview.

At the other Ivy, the rep additionally mentioned that one of the aspects they look at is whether the applicant has ever entered any kind of competition. They said that was as important as winning or placing in the competition.

I could give other examples; that’s a start. We did not feel we had “insider” knowledge when applying. We felt that we had knowledge accessible to anyone who doesn’t work in Admissions there or anyone without a relative or spouse in a position of power & knowledge at that campus. We felt maximally educated only because we had done a lot of research. Equally, however, we did not feel that the maximum education made my D’s results any more predictable than anyone else’s results. (Because we knew exactly how competitive, & how similar, that pool must be.) We just used our common sense, & perhaps we lucked out.

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 1:17am

In all fairness, I can see merit in the idea that applicants should do independent application research, whether it’s reading articles and books, internet research, or other resources. But I also think colleges should provide an approved list of reliable resources.

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 1:28am

I don’t want to unduly clutter this thread with Harvard admissions’ excerpts but there is this additional statement at Harvard’s website regarding academic standards:

"Are there minimum required SAT I, ACT, or SAT II scores?

Harvard does not have clearly defined, required minimum scores; however, the majority of students admitted to the College represent a range of scores from roughly 600 to 800 on each section of the SAT I as well as on the SAT II Subject Tests. We regard test results as helpful indicators of academic ability and achievement when considered thoughtfully among many other factors. "

Obviously, this is more specific information but it also states that there is no required minimum SAT/ACT score. That may be true, but there almost certainly is a minimum value for the combined GPA and SAT/ACT. So what are the GPA requirements at Harvard? Here’s the statement given at the Harvard website:

"Must a student have certain grades or marks to be considered for admission?

The Admissions Committee recognizes that schools vary by size, academic program, and grading policies, so we do not have rigid grade requirements. We do seek students who achieve at a high level, and most admitted students rank in the top 10-15% of their graduating classes."

What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

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