<p>Mathmom–
Edit done while you were writing your response. I’m clearly not a “mathmom”!</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>"I think the problem that I am seeing is that many kids shy away the “quiet” volunteerism of helping people close to home in favor of doing something dramatic just because they know it will get them recognition…</p>
<p>It often seems like the kids will only do something if it moves them closer to the goal of ivy acceptance. This is evidenced by some of the questions and comments made by parents on college nights. After school, sports, other ECs, my D only has a limited number of hours a week to make a volunteer contribution. I would hate for her to think that raking an elderly neighbor’s leaves is an unworthy way to spend that time…"</p>
<p>I think that all you can do is to guide your kid in line with your values, and not worry about the other people.</p>
<p>I shake my head at some of the things that I’ve seen students doing to get recognition. This includes fake ECs that I’ve sniffed out on interviews.</p>
<p>All I can do is raise my kids the best way that I know how. If some cheater gets ahead of them, then I believe that the law of karma will eventually get the cheater.</p>
<p>I feel sorry for parents when they make comments about packaging their kids. Their kids lose out by having those kind of parents. The kids never find out who they really are. That’s a worse loss than not getting into an Ivy because a classmate packaged themselves.</p>
<p>I happen to agree with 2boysima. I don’t think everything about this topic is merely anectdotal. I think colleges do give ideas of what they are looking for, as well as profiles of the class they have admitted in the past.</p>
<p>As this thread is about ECs, I’ll stick with that. Very selective colleges indicate that they are looking for students who are engaged in meaningful activities outside the classroom in a signficant capacity (long term commitment over time and for significant hours/week) and where they have made some sort of contribution to that activity…a role in the endeavor, perhaps involving leadership, maybe not, perhaps involving initiative, or perhaps involving some positive outcome due to their participation. The colleges also wish to see achievements in those endeavors…sometimes in the form of an award, but also could be attaining some level of achievement…selection to a troupe, a competition, going to State Championships, etc. Colleges are also interested in students who have passions and interests. They accept those with one singular devoted passion and those with a few interests that they have done for a long while. They are looking for students who will continue these endeavors in college and thus contribute to campus life. NONE of this is a secret. </p>
<p>I am unclear of what you wish colleges to do…list specific ECs they want to see? Specific awards? And if they did, then what? Your child will tailor his/her life to fit that mold…ie) college would like to get some fencers…better take up fencing? Colleges want debators…better do that in HS? Like 2boysima, my kids chose their EC interest areas as young children and have been doing them ever since. They never picked what they did for ECs based on what they thought selective colleges wanted. They did what they loved and did it well and got into very selective schools. </p>
<p>Also, very selective colleges make it clear that they strive to attain diverse student bodies. They want kids with a myriad of interests…not just athletes, musicians and newspaper editors, for example. They want kids who will be engaged in all the activiites on campus…I cannot begin to list them all (look up any college’s list of clubs, organizations, etc.)…community service clubs, religious organizations, sports teams, instrumental groups, dance groups, theater productions, school newspaper, radio station, Gay/Straight Alliance, a capella groups, debate teams, and so forth. They are not looking for any particular ECs per se, but more of what I wrote above…not WHAT the EC is but how it is done. </p>
<p>About the community service, you don’t HAVE to have a bunch of this to get into colleges. My kids did not have an abundance because like some others here, my kids were in EC with mucho hours…sports, theater, dance, music groups…not much time left for service though each did some service related things that corresponded with their areas of passion//EC activities…be it coaching a girls’ soccer team, or raising money through putting on a theater production for the community. </p>
<p>I also think that it is not true that a selective college would not value someone who helped an elderly neighbor or autistic child. To the contrary, selective schools love such contributions and these can be written about in essays and in recs. A student who plows the driveways, mows the lawns, does errands, etc. for the elderly is doing something worthwhile. A student who has some job working with kids, is also seen as contributing. These things are not disregarded at all. </p>
<p>I think colleges are clear about the types of things they are looking for. I don’t need any more information. A student should be WHO they are, not who they think someone else wants them to be. They should do their very best at what they do and be commited and involved in something that engages and interests them. Then , they can document who they are and the rest takes care of itself. I know that is what my kids did. I don’t recall ANY discussion at all about which ECs good colleges might want. They are motivated kids who tend to have interests/passions and excel. They are who they are. Colleges seemed to accept them. The ones who didn’t (each had one rejection and one waitlist), wasn’t because they lacked some important piece but because those particular schools accepted less than 10% of applicants. My kids were very aware that they had what it takes to be considered but after that, not every qualified person can be admitted at the most selective schools. Usually, if you’ve “got it”, then SOME schools will admit you, but not necessarily all given the odds at very selective schools today. A rejection doesn’t always mean there was a “reason” when we’re talking acceptance rates of less than 10%. Some schools are going to take a person who has done well in each area of her life. My kids knew that. They just didn’t know which schools for sure would give them the nod. They were lucky to get into one of their first choice colleges. There was no molding or trying to find out what colleges wanted. We do not feel a need for any more “transparency” or any lists of “attractive ECs”. It would not have changed a THING they did with their lives, to date.</p>
<p>
Doesn’t this sound like the system is working? With all due respect–and I mean that sincerely–isn’t that a big part of what is called “fit”? When I did a little parental dance one summer trying to get my son, who was also not especially interested in most kinds of community service or volunteerism, to do some more community service because “the colleges like to see lots of community service”, he looked me in the eye and said that he guessed, then, that he would get rejected from the colleges that really liked to see lots of community service and that this would be fine with him because he didn’t want to spend four years living and studying with people that really like to do lots of community service because he doesn’t and he would not fit in. He was absolutely right, too. Although all colleges welcome and appreciate students who have a strong commitment to CS, he didn’t apply to any schools which heavily emphasized CS because it wouldn’t have been a good fit. He wasn’t what they were looking for and they weren’t what he was looking for. He did get into his #1 choice anyway, despite his paltry CS hours, and it was a great fit for him, he ended up sticking around for an MS degree, and he loves his alma mater. He fit in quite well, made many friends, and “contributed” in his own unique way (which did not include CS). And it is a university with admissions rates down near 10%.</p>
<p>I was down in Florida for a few days and came across an article in the Sun-Sentinel re “College Blues” One of the points made was –</p>
<h1>4. “You need only 2 good extracurricular activities. Colleges want to see you follow your dreams and passions, not show off how many clubs you joined. Pick 2 things that you really like, and give them the TIME they deserve. If you are an amateur baker, enter a pie in the county fair. If singing makes you happy, join the school choir and enter some talent shows. They are looking for people with passion…not dilettantes who are joining or becoming officers in many different organizations.”</h1>
<p>another point made is to # 8.-- “Get off the resume-building treadmill and do something normal.” --“I am sick and tired of what someone learned about diversity on the class trip to build a shack for poor Peruvians. Regular jobs, such as a supermarket checker, can be educational too.”<br>
I thought it was a great article - it was in the Lifestyle section of the Florida Sun -Sentinel on 5/8. so if anyone can link it up- or if you can find it on the website, it might be interesting to read the whole thing.
I think the sentiment mirrors what many of us are trying to say- find some activities that YOU like- do it well and don’t try to second guess what you think college admission counselors want to see in your resume. They have probably read it all.<br>
It would probably be refreshing for them to see a kid with one or two activities and works 15 hours a week in a supermarket because they want to buy a car -or to help pay for college. A Normal kid- how unique.</p>
<p>Marny…thanks for sharing that. </p>
<p>While i realize this is NOT your point, but actually selective colleges do like seeing work experience…working at a local supermarket for 15 hours per week is a good EC, believe it or not! My D was a waitress, though not as many hours per week as she was heavily engaged in EC pursuits like sports, music and dance. But she did work as a wait person to earn money. That was her reason for doing so. Actually, she taught a chldren’s tap dance class for pay too. But later on, when it came time for college apps, it was apparent that every app had a place for “work experience” so obviously this meant it is something colleges want to know. </p>
<p>In a way, I am glad she had work experiences that rounded out her other activity/interest areas. She actually had something to put down. Her paid jobs in restaurants and in children’s programs (has also taught tennis and other summer activities to children) actually paid off this year in her securing related jobs in France for this summer. Work experience is actually a well thought of EC endeavor, not to be discounted. I actually think it can be refereshing at elite colleges for them to have applicants who have held regular sorts of teenage jobs! Where we live, this is a VERY common EC. Not so in other areas, I’m thinking.</p>
<p>“If you are an amateur baker, enter a pie in the county fair.” Maybe it’s just me, but this seems unlikely to leave much of an impression on admissions departments.</p>
<p>Northstarmom: From your experience, how would you view this one?</p>
<p>Soozievt, yes, you are right. A fair number of students that we met who got into top schools had work experience during high school.</p>
<p>Stickershock- that is the point- They want to see you as the person and not the image of someone that you think the Adcom wants to see- They want to see what are your likes are and how you pursue and develop those interests. That “recipe” may have come from a grandparent and you can write an essay as to who got you interested in baking and the influence they had on you. Sometimes the most mundane things can be interesting to someone else. Be creative–not boring!! I’m from Brooklyn- I don’t go to county fairs- but I think it would be a hoot to read about a 16 year old kid competing in a baking contest. That action in itself shows maturity, dedication and responsibility.</p>
<p>Northstar mom says: “I feel sorry for parents when they make comments about packaging their kids. Their kids lose out by having those kind of parents. The kids never find out who they really are. That’s a worse loss than not getting into an Ivy because a classmate packaged themselves.”</p>
<p>That’s a very harsh and judgmental statement. I used the word “package” because that’s the word others on CC have used to describe the process of assembling a compelling application. I did not intend to connote any manipulation of the audience by dressing a student up to appear more appealing than what s/he really is. I definitely did not imply that parents should manipulate kids into being something other than what they are. I was merely referring to the types of suggestions you outline in post #233. It seems you are or have been in the adcom business, so for you those strategies may seem obvious and common sensical. And so they are, but only once you’ve read them! To give you an example also based on my S’s HS, the prospective NHS members were instructed that on their application for membership under the volunteer and community service section they may not list anything that they had done to help a family member. No doubt the rule was made to prevent mom from claiming little Johnny volunteered at Aunt Susie’s nursery school when he didn’t. But as a parent, wouldn’t it then be a rather natural assumption that colleges, for the very same reason, would not be interested in hearing how a student had helped a family member? Furthermore, for a kid to even think about writing about something like that, he would have to consider it something unusual or unique. I would hope that in my household, helping a family member is viewed as “just what you do.” What you talk about in your posts IS “packaging.”</p>
<p>GFG…the helping of a family member may not be so much on the EC “list” but could possibly be the basis of a compelling essay that gives a sneak peak into the personality of the applicant. A kid who has cared for a disabled grandparent, who has mentored a child in the neighborhood, who has a special needs sibling, or who has made yearly visits to grandparents in another culture/country, etc. can write about these experiences. Yes, the student does these things because it is “just what you do” and not with an eye on getting into college. My point is that these activities do count and can be a topic of an essay. Colleges are interested in WHO the candidate is, not just what he/she has accomplished.</p>
<p>soozievt: “My point is that these activities do count and can be a topic of an essay. Colleges are interested in WHO the candidate is, not just what he/she has accomplished.”</p>
<p>And my point is that the average parent or student who doesn’t frequent CC would probably not think to write about a topic like that, would never suspect that the admission people would find it interesting (after all, to the student it’s nothing remarkable, it’s just everyday life), and would not be savvy enough to realize that such an essay would demonstrate who they are.</p>
<p>GFG wrote:
“And my point is that the average parent or student who doesn’t frequent CC would probably not think to write about a topic like that, would never suspect that the admission people would find it interesting (after all, to the student it’s nothing remarkable, it’s just everyday life), and would not be savvy enough to realize that such an essay would demonstrate who they are.”</p>
<p>While I get your point, I think that point can be applied to filling out the entire application. The college admission process can be overwhelming. I think going about selecting appropriate colleges, compiling a well balanced list, doing effective visits, good interviews, and filing a well done application takes SOME knowledge. I think reading books about college admissions and applications, essay writing, and reading boards like CC, all help a candidate to learn how to go about this process. When it comes to writing a college essay, it is good to read up on what makes an effective college essay and not just write any old style or topic. Information is power. I don’t think one needs to be “savvy” per se, but does need to understand the application process. In writing the essay, it is good to know the purpose…that it is meant to show something about yourself…qualities/traits, interests, etc. When filling out EC lists, it is good to be aware that an annotated activity list would be effective to include rather than to confine significant activities to two inches of space that may not truly show what the activities involved. In all aspects of the college selection and application process, there are “tips” of ways to go about it. (to clarify…I don’t mean things you should do PRIOR to the application process…like ECs to do that “look good”…I am ONLY refering to how to go about the applications and the process…not creating who you are BEFORE that juncture)</p>
<p>So, I agree that while some might not think to write about everyday experiences, many would realize this if they read even one book on college applications or college essays. Not everyone reads CC or reads books, but I sure do think it helps when embarking on a complex and important process and decision, to arm oneself with more information. Some look to paid college counselors who have expertise on these nuggets of application wisdom and others do it themselves…books, websites, message boards, friends/neighbors who have done it before, etc. Any book on college essays will have samples of effective essays and many of these include snippets in a student’s personal life. The essays are not meant to recreate the EC resume. It is meant to reveal WHO the applicant is as a person. Many may not realize what makes a good college essay but for those contempating selective schools, they’d be at a disadvantage if they never read anything to do with the college application process. Again, to clarify, I am not talking of what kind of applicant you should make yourself into…I am ONLY talking about documenting who you are on the applications.</p>
<p>soozievt says : “for those contempating selective schools, they’d be at a disadvantage if they never read anything to do with the college application process.”</p>
<p>Yes, and that about sums up the reason this thread began, and why some of us on here are making the argument that gaining admissions to a selective school has as much to do with “packaging” as it does with the student’s credentials. If the process were as simple, straight-forward, and intuitive as some self-proclaimed CC experts imply, paid college counselors like you would be out of business, soozievt! Aren’t you glad so many of us are ignorant, lack reasoning skills, and obviously haven’t read the right books and articles?</p>
<p>Maybe the question is this: Is there something wrong with the college application process when a student who is bright enough to score above 2370 on the SAT and earn a 4.0 GPA taking honors and AP courses feels she needs to hire a college counselor to help her write essays and complete her application? Why do kids and parents sense there’s more than meets the eye and they need help?</p>
<p>I’m not dumb, and I did read quite a few articles. I thought I had an adequate grasp of the admissions process. Actually, my S was pretty successful. But just like many posters have commented, I wish I had found CC before my S completed his applications. Looking back after reading posts from folks like you, I see now that my S made quite a number of tactical errors. Among them was the fact that he probably stressed some things that he shouldn’t have, and downplayed some things which in hindsight I realize were unique and interesting enough that he probably should have written an essay about one of them. </p>
<p>He was lucky, but I see how easily he could have failed given the errors he made.</p>
<p>"Furthermore, for a kid to even think about writing about something like that, he would have to consider it something unusual or unique. I would hope that in my household, helping a family member is viewed as “just what you do.” What you talk about in your posts IS “packaging.”</p>
<p>I think we’re talking about semantics. When filling out applications, of course, people should truthfully highlight their good points. That’s not what I call “packaging.”</p>
<p>When I refer to “packaging,” I mean parents who deliberately force and steer kids into activities in order to look good to colleges. Instead of helping a kid pursue their natural interests and talents and encouraging a kid to do things to develop ethics, a conscience about doing things for others, etc., the parent may, for instance, force little Stevie to participate in math competitions just because a neighbor kid who got into MIT had done that. The parent may discourage little Stevie from trying out for school plays because the parent is convinced that acting ECs won’t impress MIT.</p>
<p>I also am referring to parents who use pricey college counselors and have the counselors guide the kids into activities just so the kids can get into some college that the parent or kid has chosen for the name, not because the college is a good fit for the student’s personality and interests.</p>
<p>"“Maybe the question is this: Is there something wrong with the college application process when a student who is bright enough to score above 2370 on the SAT and earn a 4.0 GPA taking honors and AP courses feels she needs to hire a college counselor to help her write essays and complete her application? Why do kids and parents sense there’s more than meets the eye and they need help?”</p>
<p>Maybe what’s wrong is that the parents and students have the mistaken notion that only a couple of elite colleges are places that the student should attend.</p>
<p>Since there are an overabundance of excellent applicants to the top colleges, it should be obvious that not every outstanding student will get in. Since the US has thousands of colleges including many good ones, and since most college grads with decent records get good jobs, it should also be obvious to parents and students that one needn’t go to HPYS in order to be able to support oneself in a comfortable way.</p>
<p>I second TheGFG’s comments. Maximizing the amount of readily available public information is more fair and will yield a better system that benefits society. The goal should be to get the best students to the best-fit colleges. Each student and family tries to do that but it’s difficult without readily accessible admissions standards.</p>
<p>“If you are an amateur baker, enter a pie in the county fair.” Maybe it’s just me, but this seems unlikely to leave much of an impression on admissions departments.</p>
<p>Northstarmom: From your experience, how would you view this one?"</p>
<p>If the person really got into baking – won county fair contests, did science fair projects related to the chemistry of recipes, cooked each week for the homeless – the combination of all of those things would be showing a passion, an unusual passion, and probably would cause the person to stand out in admissions. </p>
<p>When I went to Harvard, Julia Child was one of the local experts associated with my dorm. People like her would occasionally drop by to have dinner with the students. There was room for students with a wide variety of interests at Harvard.</p>
<p>GFG,
I first became interested in the college admissions process because my oldest was embarking on the whole shebang. I bought some books. I came upon CC and I learned a lot. While later I did train as a college counselor, I initially helped my child like any other parent.</p>
<p>The term “packaging” can mean different things. I am NOT into packaging oneself in terms of creating who you are…doing things to look good for college…molding into what the colleges supposedly want. I am into being who you are and doing your best at whatever floats your boat, and of course, challenging oneself in school and doing your best there too. </p>
<p>In my posts above, I was talking more about the application process which really comes AFTER whoever it is that you’ve become up until that point. It is the documentation of whoever you are. In that regard, one does need to “market” oneself. I suppose you could call THAT packaging as well. SHOWING who you are is important. I think books and boards like this can help. I don’t think one has to use a college counselor. I don’t think the way you wrote:</p>
<p>“Yes, and that about sums up the reason this thread began, and why some of us on here are making the argument that gaining admissions to a selective school has as much to do with “packaging” as it does with the student’s credentials. If the process were as simple, straight-forward, and intuitive as some self-proclaimed CC experts imply, paid college counselors like you would be out of business, soozievt! Aren’t you glad so many of us are ignorant, lack reasoning skills, and obviously haven’t read the right books and articles?”</p>
<p>No, I am not “glad” if parents lack some “know how” about the college admissions process. I think some engage a college counselor because they do not have the know how and rather than learn about it on their own, they want to consult someone who does know a thing or two who can guide them, like in any other service industry. Others simply don’t wish to do this with their kids and get someone else to do the job. Some want to help their kids but for whatever reason, want someone to help them. Some have guidance counselors who are assigned too many students or who do not know enough about a certain kind of admissions or schools. Some prefer a third party to work with their children because they find it hard to work with their own kids. A skilled counselor can faciliate the process. But a counselor is not NECESSARY. Many can and do do this on their own. I am continually impressed with the very knowledgeable and supportive parents on this forum who really are involved in learning about this process, guiding their children, and sharing with one another on here.</p>
<p>GFG, I truly need to get back to my work but since you are talking of people hiring college counselors to help their offspring with high stats to get into elite colleges…
I thought you might be interested in the fact, that the clients I have worked with this year, most have had low stats are are not eligible for or applying to elite colleges. I am writing a report right now on a student who has a 2.7 GPA, no foreign language, one lab science, math only through Alg. 2, SATs of 880 (CR/M)…hardly the kind of applicant you were thinking of that hires a counselor. Actually the student has Yale on the list. So, um, let’s say that some folks need a counselor and it is not just to “package” their kids. Some need very basic assistance (even though the parents are college educated and the student attends a private school) about how to select colleges and how to show who they are on an application.</p>
<p>Wow, sooz. Good luck with that client, lol!</p>