What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

Parents Forum
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<p>

All colleges that are not purely numbers driven look for diversity, so to that extent, it probably doesn’t help to be part of a well-represented group when applying to college. OTOH, all 3 of my kids have several close Asian friends and many acquaintances, most first-generation, with a few being born and raised outside the U.S. In addition, I worked in the schools on a part-time basis for almost 15 years and as a result, interacted with many Asian students. This will probably not sit well with the PC crowd, but my experience tells me that some–though certainly not all–Asians have had a bit of a tough time understanding and adapting to our system. Numbers drive everything in their homelands; it seems to have been very difficult for some Asians to get their heads around the concept that what were the most important factors–or the only factors–back home are only part of the picture here. And I can understand the resistance. There have been times when I and my own kids have grown irritated with the process ourselves. But we’ve had lots of time to get used to it, we’re 3rd and 4th generation Americans, and, when pressed, we readily admit that despite the annoyances, we actually do buy into the concept that our country’s future movers and shakers need to be more than walking, talking test scores.</p>

<p>Admittedly it’s a relatively small sample, but the Asian students and friends we’ve know who embraced this shift in focus have had great success. My oldest was a member of the HS class of 2000; his Asian friends graduated from top universities – lots of Ivies, top UC’s, Stanford, Amherst, Williams, etc. – and have gone on to grad or professional schools and/or are enjoying excellent starts in their chosen careers. Without exception, these were kids who were not focused entirely on numbers. They didn’t go straight from school to Kumon math lessons. They were on the volleyball team, they were in the play, they were youth leaders in their church, they were friends with my kid who’s not Asian. Did they have top grades in the toughest courses? Yes. Did they have top SAT scores? Yes. But there was so much more to them; they were part of the fabric of the community in a way that some of their more numbers-driven classmates were not, and it was the numbers-driven kids who experienced the most disappointment during the colleges admissions process–and that includes non-Asians as well.</p>

<p>So I think that it isn’t entirely fair to buy into conspiracy theories. Diversity is definitely a challenge when so many Asians are outstanding students. But if a college is looking for something more and you don’t show it to them, you lose whether you’re Asian or white or black or Native American… it’s not all about race.</p>

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<p>1Downtogo,I am NOT stating that all schools have a form of “conspiracy.” However, doesn’t anyone worry about the fact that when numbers and objective criteria are not fully determinative for most majors, outside of art, music and some other majors, there can be discrimination? Can’t the words “holistic,” " factoing in the whole kid, " and other soft criteria be used for discriminatory reasons? Frankly, it was used against jewish students in the 1940’s and 50’s, why not now against some other types of students?</p>

<p>Yes, I do understand that colleges are stating that they are recruiting based on their needs. This is probably true. I do, however, wonder whether some of the negative practices of “yesteryear” aren’t also practiced today under the guise of looking at kids “holistically.” </p>

<p>As I said, I could be too cynical.</p>

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<p>Sure, taxguy, discrimination may be practiced by colleges today. However, the way that colleges select students is similar to the way hires are made in the work world.</p>

<p>There are a variety of factors taken into account and the person with the longest work experience, highest scores, best skills may not get the job for a variety of factors including how well a particular person appears to fit with a corporate culture.</p>

<p>I don’t understand why anyone would expect that college admissions would be a transparent process when I can’t think of any process that’s similar that is transparent. These things always are based somewhat on subjective factors.</p>

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<p>gpa </p>

<hr>

<p>I completely agree with tax guy and others. GPA comes before anything and one must sacrifice AP/Hon classes for GPA. I really wish someone had told me this my freshman year of highschool. I am now a junior in highschool and i was wondering if the same applied to college. I want to get into med school.
so is it possible to go to a UC and take “easy” classes to up my GPA and get a good MCAT score and make it into a top MED school like stanford. please reply back when possible.</p>

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<p>“Ya know, if you still apply to that U when you see that 3% or 9% of students were admitted with <500 on an SAT I section, whose fault is that when you forfeit your $65 application fee?”</p>

<p>It sure would help if they told you what it was that made them overlook the SAT score wouldn’t it? I can think of some legitimate reasons, but I do think that some people look at those numbers and think, it could be me. When it couldn’t.</p>

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<p>“Both had no foreign language and only one year of a lab science. One’s highest math course was algebra.”</p>

<p>NY’s Regent’s Diploma is looking better to me. :slight_smile: They won’t let you graduate without two years of science and math through the equivalent of Algebra 2.</p>

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<p>Was this a prep school? I ask that because at S’s HS no one ever offered us admissions data for reference. I’ve attended every college event at our HS and never heard mention of Naviance Scattergrams.“”</p>

<p>I think Naviance is relatively new. Our big public high school signed on last year. It really is neat - but of course the scattergrams only look at GPAs and SAT scores. The good thing is that they are looking at those scores at YOUR school.</p>

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<p>Mathmom…I don’t want to divulge too much. One student went to public school. It seemed to me that after flunking two courses in ninith grade, he was in an alternative type program in the high school where he only took one course at a time. He took the min. courses required to graduate. He had no foreign language, one lab science and his math was two years total but the highest level was Algebra. </p>

<p>I’ve had many students with low stats but just sticking with the courses again…another student goes to a private school in NY. It is a very small private school. She was exempt from the school’s foreign language requirement due to testing. By graduation, she’ll have the three years of required math but only go up through Alg.2. While she will have completed three years of science (this is more than the first kid I mentioned), I think only one course would be considered a lab science but am not 100% sure. I would have thought the lab sciences are Bio, Chem, Physics. She had Bio, no Chem, and will not have taken the Physics that is given at her school in 12th grade after Chem. She will have a ninth grade course in Conceptual Physics, tenth grade Bio, no science in eleventh, and then Environmental in 12th (NOT AP, school doesn’t offer AP, very small school). Again, more than the first kid. But many colleges seem to require at least two years foreign language and two years of a LAB science. Also, I think if there is something that doesn’t measure up, it helps if the rest of the package can compensate. But when a student doesn’t have the college preparatory coursework that selective colleges seem to stipulate, and has a very low GPA, such as a 2.4-2.7 (not including the F’s or withdrawals), and SATs on the CR/M that are in the 800’s or 900’s, and then the student has some top schools on the list including Ivies, I do scratch my head. But then again, I think SOME students or SOME parents, have this notion that they can just pick out colleges they’d like to attend, but do not examine the qualifications needed to attend or the admit rate, etc. It is like shopping in the store…they like it, they want it, they can afford it…LOL. But unfortunately, it ain’t like that.</p>

<p>PS, by the way, one student hadn’t even taken the SATs until Dec. of senior year and hadn’t started the selection or app process until they contacted me Dec. 1 (going for highly competitive BFA programs). Another will not be taking the SATs until fall of senior year either. Clearly, they do not read CC!</p>

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<p>I agree, mathmom. The value of Naviance to the college hopeful is the numbers provided from the locus of the high school. We really have used Naviance, conservatively, as a guide in developing realistic lists & predicting likely results. It has saved us time & prevented unnecessary disappointment, while on the other side allowing for inclusion. Can’t get much more quantitative than that. Sometimes one can actually see patterns in admissions to a certain college – such as a strong preference for GPA over test results, or vice-versa. At other times one can notice a very narrow range of acceptees, limited probably to the top 1 or 2 students. At a large public U this yr., everyone from our school with over a 3.5 was accepted, everyone below 3.5 was rejected, regardless of test scores.</p>

<p>In cases where acceptances for one particular year are “all over the map,” that would tell the applicant that there is a lot of wiggle-room & much comprehensive evaluation going on. (A good bet that strong e.c.'s might compensate for borderline stats.)</p>

<p>Since this is the first yr. for the 2400 SAT, results for our school from this yr. will be particularly helpful. (Not multi-yr. results, as previously.)</p>

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<p>Mathmom, our school doesn’t have these scattergrams and the first I have ever heard of these were on CC’s forums!</p>

<p>We went about the college selection process on our own. We did not get any information from school. There was a financial aid night presentation from a state agency, that’s it. My kids have parents who helped them find information and were involved in talking about colleges and researching with them, etc. I don’t know what kids do whose parents are wholly uninvolved. </p>

<p>However, this is different than the situations I was relating earlier who hired an indpendent college counselor. The college wish lists and the high school course planning before they got to this point, etc. are boggling in some instances. </p>

<p>The thing is, all the parents on CC, by their nature of being here in the first place, are trying to learn what they can about the college admissions process. It is the parents/students who don’t use such resources that really need help. Though, I don’t quite get the ones at private schools who, for instance, by the end of 11th have yet to take the SATs, and who have a college list that is way way unrealistic. But again, there are situations out there that are very different than what is typical on CC.</p>

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<p>Epiphany, I think the Naviance scattergram would be a very interesting resource to use. We not only do not have it here, I honestly think it would have been useless in both of my children’s cases. For D1, most of her schools are not ones that others from our school apply to and if anyone had before, it may be like one other kid ever sort of thing, at least with regard to her reaches. There would not be enough patterns to even observe. What we did know was that nobody had gotten into two schools on her list before from our school…Yale and Princeton. She was waitlisted at Princeton and a boy the year before was too (likely the only two to even apply in past few years). Penn was on her list and we know one girl who has gone there from our HS, and one boy who was admitted before her year. With Brown, the val two years before her had gone. I’m just talking the hardest schools on her list now. But that really was it from our school. In her year, nobody else went to any Ivy, for instance. Not enough data on any scattergram would have related enough to her list. </p>

<p>With regard to my other child, she was applying to BFA programs in Musical Theater. In the past five years, I can only think of two who have even gone for that…both went to Ithaca…which my D also got into but with BFA programs, I don’t even think which HS you come from matters so much…also her stats to get into Ithaca were above and beyond and of no issue but getting into the BFA is extremely competitive and no scattergram would help even if we had had students from our HS who had ever applied to BFA programs.Then last year, two from our HS tried for BFAs in musical theater…my D and the salutatorian. The sal applied ED to NYU/Tisch (my D did not do ED) and was denied. She only applied to one other school, the BFA at Emerson, and got in. My D was successful in her BFA quest…admitted to five BFAs, waitlisted at one, denied at one and then at Emerson, she was admitted to the school, deferred for the BFA, eventualy not admitted to the BFA. She ended up at NYU/Tisch (opposite results from her pal…the sal). </p>

<p>Not sure what there was to learn at our school. We were surely on our own in this very specialized and highly selective admissions process. Loved our GC but it was more us telling him what it was all about and he was supportive. But it is not like we got help, per se, from school with the process. He wrote wonderful recs but it wasn’t like the school was suggesting anything to us. Frankly, with regard to elite college admisions (my first D’s situation) and BFA admission (second D’s situation), we educated THEM and we surely had to learn it all on our own.</p>

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<p>The scattergrams work best I think with a large enough school so that there is enough data to plot. Even at our school - the scattergram for RPI for example is withheld for privacy reasons because there aren’t enough kids who applied. I think it was 10 last year - and I know at least three were accepted. Even though the scattergram is withheld though, they did tell us what the average SAT and GPA scores were.</p>

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<p>A pearl from math mom:</p>

<p>" “Ya know, if you still apply to that U when you see that 3% or 9% of students were admitted with <500 on an SAT I section, whose fault is that when you forfeit your $65 application fee?”</p>

<p>It sure would help if they told you what it was that made them overlook the SAT score wouldn’t it? I can think of some legitimate reasons, but I do think that some people look at those numbers and think, it could be me. When it couldn’t. "</p>

<p>Let’s also remember, please, that kids are not walking profiles. And many students, if not most, do not truly have the complete package for an elite school. Perhaps compared to the average kid they are quite exceptional, yet within the competitive Ivy application pool they could be said to have relative weaknesses. Perhaps their SAT’s were a tad bit below 2300, perhaps they haven’t achieved state or national recognition in any endeavor, perhaps they’ve gotten a C- in Calculus. In addition there are those other variables, such as some students have great hooks and others don’t, some are legacies and some aren’t, some are URM’s and some are ORM’s. On top of that, we know that colleges play yield games and might incorrectly assume a highly-qualified student will end up going to a better school anyway and thus reject him. In addition, some high schools have a good track record with some elite schools, but have had no or limited success with others. And this is where it gets tricky and people feel lost.</p>

<p>If a student had the time and money to apply to, say, 50 top public and private schools across the country, then this discussion would be irrelevant. The proverbial casting wide of the net would ensure some great results for an outstanding student. But the reality is that time and money are a limitation.</p>

<p>The only child from my S’s HS who was admitted to Princeton truly did not think he’d get in (ED). Despite excellent academic stats, he had pretty mediocre EC’s (a varsity sport and a typical online hobby and that’s it) and was an Asian male. We thought he might not be well-rounded enough for a top Ivy and that being Chinese might hurt. Guess we were totally wrong. In this case, we assumed that his excellent test scores and GPA overrode the EC deficit. But this was not at all easy to predict.</p>

<p>My S applied to 12 schools, which was quite a few more than most kids at his HS, except for the students applying to the 7-year med programs. That was as much application fee money as we felt we could spend. Now he not only needed academic safety, fit, and reach schools, he also needed financial safety schools. We pored over the aforementioned college guides, considered what we knew (unofficially) of where other students from the HS had been admitted and with what stats, and yet I have to say we still had no clue if my S was truly Ivy material or not. Consequently, we didn’t know how many Ivies if any he should include in that list of 12 since we weren’t certain if he was at first base, in center field or just plain out of the Ivy ballpark. (If we had had the money, S would have applied to most of the Ivies and then another complete list of around 12 schools.) For one thing, we really had no way of gauging whether or how much being a URM would help. One of the first results that came in was an acceptance from a safety, but the school had not even considered him one of their best applicants and thus he was not offered one of their Fill-in-Blank Scholars spots. At that point in the process, we were concerned not only that he wouldn’t be admitted to any of the top schools on his list, but also that he would not be offered merit money at his financial safeties either. Things turned out fine in the end, but I think there was an equally good chance they may not have. Certainly comparable candidates from his HS weren’t as fortunate as he was.</p>

<p>There probably isn’t a way to make this process more transparent and easier to navigate. It does sound like the Naviance data could be a very helpful tool, though. Some of you who are more confident about understanding how the process works may have been fortunate to have children who did indeed have the complete Ivy package with no weaknesses. Others of you have worked with so many students over the years that you do see some trends that make it less mysterious for you than it is for one parent going through it with their first child.</p>

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<p>GFG, when my oldest child was starting the college process, I was learning from scratch (I was not yet a college counselor). There also were no naviance things at our school and only a couple kids even apply to schools at the highest levels each year and maybe 1-3 go to a highly selective school (I’m talking beyond Ivy). I am not sure what more else you want to have available in this process. It takes some research into schools, etc. But no matter how much knowlege one has or how much information the colleges put out, there STILL WILL BE an unpredicatable quality in the admissions process at schools where they accept fewer than 20% of applicants. That is because students who are fully qualified, can still be rejected. A kid can get into Harvard but not Yale and many other examples. They could be qualified to both but it is unpredictable which school will take the kid for a slot in their freshman grouping. That is why a student must apply to more than one school even if he is super duper qualified. Schools that accept less than 20% or so of applicants are a REACH for ANYONE, in my opinion. I cannot safely say that the best student in the land is FOR SURE going to get into any one particular school. What I can say is that for someone who has every single thing strong on their record, they are likely going to get into SOME highly selective schools, but not necessarily all. EVERY student needs reach, match, and safety schools. I know that is what my D had. She applied to 8 schools, not 12. I had no idea if she could ever get into her reaches even though she had a strong package but was clearly not unique or anything. I felt she stood a chance like anyone else but we both knew it was so unpredictable at her reaches that we never ever counted on her getting in. She did not get upset when ONE of her first/top choices, Yale, deferred her and then eventually rejected her (only rejection actually) because she expected this to be a likely outcome, not because she wasn’t “good enough” but because she understood that excellent students are turned away in a strong aplicant pool where only 9% are accepted. Clearly more than 9% of applicants to Yale were “good enough” or beyond “good enough” to get in. We see rejections listed on CC every spring of what seem to be outstanding candidates rejected to top schools. </p>

<p>I can’t understand the notion of applying to every Ivy. That philosophy sounds like “I must have an Ivy school!” That was not my D’s case and so I do not relate to that notion. She looked for schools that met her criteria. ONE of many criteria on her list was to go to a challenging school that was selective and a good level for the kind of learner she is. Four ivies landed on that list but not because they were Ivies. She had three first choices, Yale, Brown, and Tufts. Yes, she put Tufts before Penn and Princeton on her list as she liked it a lot and it met her criteria. She has never read or spoken of rankings and she also did not care if she ever attended an Ivy. She had a list of what she wanted in a college. Even after her acceptances came, and she had to narrow it down to final ones to revisit and decide between, she put Smith before Penn and knocked Penn off the list because she liked Smith better. I can’t imagine applying to every Ivy as they are so different. My D’s list was made by finding schools that met her list of criteria, not by which schools are Ivies or top schools. She also liked her safeties. She’d never consider applying to Columbia for instance…did not meet her criteria. She’d never go to college in NYC for starters. Also doubt they have a ski team. Dartmouth was too much like going to school at home environment and she could never ski for their top team and also didn’t have her intended field fo study. Cornell was OK, we visited…but truly was bigger than she’d have wanted and location was OK, not ideal for her but she ruled out a five year BArch degree program and that’s what that school has. Visited Harvard but once she narrowed her possible college major down and they did not have it, it came off. And so it goes. If I had more money or time, she still would not have applied to those schools. She didn’t have to go to an Ivy League school. She only had to go to a school she liked that fit what she was looking for in a college. If she got into one of her first choices or a reach school, great, but she liked every school on her list. Some were more favored than others but any one would do just fine.</p>

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<p>commenting on posts 352 and 353:</p>

<p>mathmom, I actually find Naviance helpful even for one intersecting point on the graph. The reason is, my D’s school is small enough that parents & students tend to know students quite well by the end of sr. yr. Every student’s schedule has been posted for all 4 yrs: you know every class that has been taken; co-curriculars are also posted; extra-curriculars are often widely known, including length of the latter, position/achievement in the latter. Our school does not “shield” for privacy; if they did, there would be virtually no data, since there are many colleges applied to relative to the size of any sr. class (class size as low as the high-20’s). So, while one pair of stats, + the result, is obviously less helpful than several results, it still can be helpful – merely to possibly include or exclude. </p>

<p>GFG,
…but I think every family’s in the same boat as yourself. Perhaps I felt that with the combo of Naviance + 3 yrs of (part-time!) research, I had a clearer vision of likely outcomes, but I hardly “knew” any outcomes. I felt it was up to me to locate whatever “transparency,” if any, there was --not the colleges’ responsibility. I think most families are groping, & will for a few more yrs. until the numbers of applicants decrease. I live in an area with a very hot job market, filled to the brim with lots of maximally qualified people. Employers, like U.S. colleges, are the sellers. Applicants with <em>X</em>yrs. of experience in their fields & the “right” stats & e.c.'s, are turned down right & left; it’s extremely frustrating & quite unpredictable. Supply/demand, the local competitive pool, & timing: 3 factors over which one has little control, and which does not relate to “transparency,” yet those 3 factors often dictate outcomes even in the job market. It’s a relative game, not an absolute one.</p>

<p>I’m not unsympathetic to your position; I just think that whatever greater transparency would be possible, would not significantly increase the “predictability” you seek.</p>

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<p>I think I’m a cynic like taxguy. I don’t see a conspiracy behind every bush, but I do think the Ivies deliberately evade greater quantification of the admissions process (eg. Harvard’s website) because of institutional financial goals and in order to suppport the politically correct social value du jour. This year may be called the Year of the Underdog: first generation college students, refugee tent dwellers and the like (see Yale and Princeton threads).</p>

<p>In the admissions guide written by the professional colllege counselor that I referenced earlier in this thread, there were almost no suggestions or tips for Harvard admissions. For MIT, however, there was a very precise and mathematical waited hierarchy of criteria by which a prospective student could judge his chances or prepare in advance to meet those criteria.</p>

<p>So, my question is: Does MIT still manage to recruit a diverse student body with enough students of passion to run its organizations? Could the admissions process at other schools be more objective like MIT’s without sacrificing other goals?</p>

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<p>GFG, what I am asking or suggesting, and I think epiphany did as well in her last post…is even if you had MORE information of whichever nature you seek, it still would likely not affect the eventual outcome due to the very very low admit rates subjectivity and unpredictability…and that many who have all the right stuff still get turned away. From all I have read, I can’t imagine any more information that is needed. Acceptance of first generation students at elite colleges…all known in the general literature on elite college admissions, for example. Socio-economic and racial diversity? Known information. And so forth. No matter how much more information I could get, I could still not predict if my kid could get into a selective school with an admit rate under 20% and even to many with an admit rate of 20-30%.</p>

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<p>“In the admissions guide written by the professional colllege counselor that I referenced earlier in this thread, there were almost no suggestions or tips for Harvard admissions. For MIT, however, there was a very precise and mathematical waited hierarchy of criteria by which a prospective student could judge his chances or prepare in advance to meet those criteria.”</p>

<p>A big reason for the above is that MIT is primarily an engineering/technology school. By far, most of the students attending there plan to major in those areas, which are easier to quantify when it comes to admssions than the myriad of majors that Harvard offers.</p>

<p>I also know that Harvard has a larger range of activities that students do both in terms of ECs and academics. That’s because Harvard is attempting to produce leaders in all fields – community service, theater, law, business, medicine, education, etc. That’s not what MIT is trying to do. I’m sure that Harvard would be willing to accept someone with lower math/science score than MIT would if the person had extraordinary skills in some other area. MIT probably wouldn’t be able to do that because the person would still have to be able to handle some required courses in which the other students would probably all have scores in the upper range of math/science on the SAT and SAT IIs.</p>

<p>I also think that MIT requires SATIIs in math and science. Harvard does not: It only requires 3 SAT IIs . The choice of which 3 is up to the students.</p>

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<p>"It sure would help if they told you what it was that made them overlook the SAT score wouldn’t it? I can think of some legitimate reasons, but I do think that some people look at those numbers and think, it could be me. When it couldn’t. "</p>

<p>The problem is that the tipping factor could range from the fact that the student added to the overall diversity of the class (was first gen college, blue collar, came from a rural area, is from an underrepresented state like Idaho, clearly plans to major in an underrepresented field, is of a very different religious or political persuasion than are most applicants, has overcome some amazing personal challenge, has some spectacular talent/honor, no one from their h.s. has gone to that Ivy) to the student’s having an extraordinary essay, interview or recommendation. And that one tipping factor was part of a whole package. The adcoms probably don’t say – “Thank God, a tuba player! Accept her!” They view the whole application, and then make a decision. Once the decision is made, it may be hard for them to say exactly what tipped the student in or, for that matter, out.</p>

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<p>GFG, I agree that MIT’s transparency is admirable, but even that doesn’t seem to work. It seems clear to me by reviewing what they’ve published about the process that kids who haven’t taken physics (if their school offers it) or who don’t like math, or who don’t like to read (i.e. heavy computer geek but not into school work and don’t like ANY humanities subjects) are wasting their time applying. And yet… even MIT has a very large number of kids applying who the admissions office says are not qualified academically.</p>

<p>A kid from my son’s HS (my son is at MIT) was one of the kids who applied without physics. His mom told me confidently in the grocery store that he was “a shoe-in-- he loved computers and was desiging websites for money since he was 14”. Well, I’m sure she’s got a great kid… but in a HS where even non-math/science kids are encouraged to take honors and AP physics, it’s really hard to explain wanting to go to MIT without physics.</p>

<p>And the kid who didn’t like math? He was REALLY into science, or so his parents claimed. C’mon-- the school has its requirements for graduation right on the website. If you can’t hack HS math, are you really going to get admitted to a college which requires more math for everyone… urban planning majors, poli sci majors, etc?</p>

<p>People are delusional, GFG, and even with pretty complete transparency, like in MIT’s case, lots of people take their chances and throw in an application. I don’t think it’s the colleges fault that people can’t be bothered to read (or don’t want to understand) the information that’s readily available. Moreover, I don’t think MIT’s system is predictive for an outsider. We were shocked that our son was admitted. He’s done well there so I guess they knew what they were doing, but he didn’t have the computer geek thing going for him, he’s anti-technology in a lot of ways, and he is definitely not the typical engineering tinkerer. How his wacky interests would line up on MIT’s grid would be a complete mystery to an outsider… you’d have to see the whole applicant pool to start making sense of an individual kid and how they’d stack up.</p>