<p>OK this is a stupid question, but…
I figured out what “D” and “S” mean, and “D1” I assume is daughter number 1? But what does “DD” mean? I’ve heard it repeatedly.</p>
<p>1) darling daughter or 2) a rather large brassierre. I am assuming that there will be enough contextual clues to ferret out which one ;).</p>
<p>Oooohh. Thanks! Hahaha!</p>
<p>Gotta love you, curmudgeon–you’re the best! :)</p>
<p>A gem from alumother:
“It’s not that we want to create styrofoam children with pretend resumes etc. and a bunch of kneejerk soulless activities they participate in with zero joy. But if you have a kid who likes a certain kind of activity and there’s a choice between productive versions of that activity and wholly time-frittering versions, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the occasional nudge towards the productive.”</p>
<p>Absolutely! How to guide a student towards being productive within the activities he enjoys, and also how to then help him highlight what he’s done on an application is the type of advice parents need to help their children be successful in this process. (What if curmudgeon and daughter had not recognized the significance of what she had done and had just listed the requisite volunteer work and nothing more?) But with so many here poo-pooing the very attempt to be smart about EC’s–calling it packaging, molding the child to fit the school, gaming, the list goes on–it has been tough to sort through to the gems like curmudgeons post!</p>
<p>End of my participation also.</p>
<p>
And I keep saying it may not even be advisable to try the gussied up approach. I agree it’s a crappy way to raise a kid, Marite and I am adding that I don’t think it’s that effective as an admissions strategy. A pig dressed in silk is still a pig.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon notes," A pig dressed in silk is still a pig"</p>
<p>Response: Ah, but a well dressed, prettier pig.</p>
<p>I know how it feels to call it quits on a thread. Especially those where we have volunteered personal information and become vulnerable. So, as one who for the most part sat this one out, I want to thank those of you who waded into the fray, and volunteered personal information and brought your own personal self to this thread. As one who has followed and not fought, you did us all a favor.</p>
<p>And who can fail to root for Mudgie? And who can fail to root for Mariti? That is the Latin male version of Marite as the subject. Or so says S1. Actually S&only.</p>
<p>Thanks guys.</p>
<p>And also to GFG and taxguy. Just don’t know you or your offspring well enough in the cyberformat to thank you from the details.</p>
<p>Alu</p>
<p>GFG, if you are still reading…maybe it is just different communities. I totally understand the climate that goes on in some schools or communities where people are talking about colleges and what you gotta do to get in and everyone is competing for this or that ranking and which clubs they need to start and the need to be named captain or president of this or that, etc. That simply is NOT the atmosphere in my rural community and frankly, I am glad. </p>
<p>For my children, there simply was no thinking about what activity must I choose that would look good on the college resume. The activities, for the most part, were interests that started when little and they just stuck with them. They would do the very same activities even if they never applied to college. I don’t know any other way to put it. They are not amazing people. They don’t walk on water. They have solid apps and qualifications but not the best you ever saw. Yes, they happen to be motivated and driven and passionate but it is how they are and all kids are different. For kids who do not opt to do things on their own volition, I can see guiding a child to come up with things he wants to do. I can’t see making them do an activity because colleges want to see X or Y but I can see having expectations that they need to engage in something worthwhile. What that is would be up to them. I admit I did not have to ask my kids to do that and the opposite happened…they ask to do so much stuff that we have major time conflicts. They push us to do the things. But even if I had kids who were not involved, I would ask that they find something they wanted to do. But I don’t think there is some magic formula about what they HAVE to do. I would have expectations of doing their best at school, however. </p>
<p>GFG, the kids you know at your school that do what they feel they need to do to get into college is not what I am seeing in my community. Even the kids who do not end up at very selective schools, are involved in things that they love. The girls my D played soccer with, have been playing with her since K! The kids my D does theater with have been in shows with her since they were tiny kids! This past Sat. night, we went to the annual dance performance from our dance studio where both my girls danced for ten years. This was my younger D’s graduating group (though she graduated a year early). The girls who did the senior dance and solos, were ALL girls she had danced with since they were very little. None of them were calculating what they had to do to get into college. They danced there every day, traveling miles to do so from all over the region because of their deep love for dance. One of these girls also did circus for many many years. Traveled each summer with the circus. She also was in the school musicals. You are talking of kids who you know who would prefer to sit and relax and watch AI…I do know kids like that but none are the top students and none are the kinds heading to selective schools. The ones who are, are truly ones who do things they love and not because they have to. I know kids heavily engaged in music…state youth symphony on weekends, hours upon hours of practice. They care deeply about music. It is not to get into college. The kids I know who just hang out after school are the ones who are not college bound and who are not good students. I am not aware of good students around here whose parents make them do activities. I don’t know of many clubs that are created. We barely have clubs at our school. I wasn’t even aware of clubs until I read CC. Here, the big ECs tend to be sports, music, theater, a job. Each of these are big commitments. We do not have lots of little clubs at our school. As I have been on the sidelines of several sports for years, for example, I don’t see any kids in them who are doing them cause they have to. The commitment is too huge to be forced upon someone. Take one sport my kid does…you have to get up at 6 AM on Sat. and Sunday…do it all weekend and then still do your homework…nobody does that cause they have to. It just is not possible. Did I mention wind chill factors below zero on the top of the mountain at 7:30 AM?? :D</p>
<p>I am cognizant that this is not the way in some communities. A good friend of mine in another state whose kids go to a very well regarded private day school (the most opposite of our HS as one could get) said to me in Jan. of D1’s senior year, ‘is she still doing ski team this winter because she doesn’t have to now that her apps are in’. I had no idea what she meant. I couldn’t imagine thinking that way. Not do ski team? My D has skied since she could walk and has raced since she was six (not counting the cute little races she was in from ages 2-5) and you couldn’t get her to NOT do ski racing if you tried (though I would not ever discourage her). So what that apps were in? She’d never give it up and she hoped to ski in college. She is not only ski racing in college (was not a recruit but is on a D1 varsity team) but she just got home from school and is paying her way to a training camp at Mt. Hood just so she can get more training. She is NOT unusual. Four of her teammates are gonna do it too. This is not connected through school. They WANT to do it. My other kid has just gotten home from college and has not been home barely at all because in just one week’s time, she created, produced and is performing in a musical theater cabaret in our state…you’d think she’d want a day off but no…was at this from the moment she got here…she is out at this hour still rehearsing. I don’t think this is unusual. The kids I know in her interest area are also like this. In fact, she is putting this show on with her college roomie who happens to also be from our state…they met when my D was nine when they were in a show together. Years later, they are at the same college and pursuing the same interest. I know a lot of kids like this. I don’t know any kids in my area who are scheming for class rank, what ECs for college apps, etc. Then again, not many here go onto the top colleges in the land. But some do. </p>
<p>The whole thrust of “what do colleges want” and “what do I need to do to get in” is a concept that is very very low key where I live. It is nothing like I read about on CC! I just got a call tonight from a local teacher, the one my girls had for science in seventh grade asking about college counseling for her HS junior. The child hasn’t even taken the SATs, visited any colleges, etc. And this is a teacher. The kids here are not making all these plans and analyzing this and that about getting into colleges. There are no presentations at school about this stuff. People are not picking ECs for colleges. It just is a different atmosphere. It is not as competitive here. The goal of most I know is not Ivy league. Very few have begun the college process during junior year even. In some other areas of the country, it seems people are obssessed over what they need to to do to get into Ivies, etc. beginning in ninth grade or even earlier. Not so here. So, it is not that my kids are walk on water types. They truly did do what they enjoy and not to get into college. That is the norm here. Some accomplish more than others but this isn’t all this “strategizing” going on. I have never heard anyone here say they wish colleges gave out more information about what it takes to get in. People here NEED something way more basic…the ropes of just how to go about applying to college. I am surprised to see a junior who didn’t take the SATs yet. The mother says she took the SAT prep class but never signed up for any tests this year. Oy. I meet many seniors here who don’t even have a college list in the fall. Very different than the anecdotes I am reading here. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>I have followed this thread with interest, and I think that experiences will vary based on what kind of a hs you have and where you are located.</p>
<p>Competition is fierce at my D’s school. About half of every graduating class is ivy material. The kids recognize this and so they know they are competing for the same few slots at the same few schools. We all know that despite what Harvard says, it is not going to take 30 kids from one hs no matter how qualified they are. This ups the competition level and makes kids nervous. Most of the kids are talented and motivated. But the kid who loves drama for drama’s sake starts to feel that is not enough and starts to seek out other ECs just to build up the resume. In a competitive environment, it is much harder to stand apart. When you have many bright talented kids, it is much harder to get a rec from a teacher that says, “one of the best in my career.”</p>
<p>In contrast, my nephew attends a rural hs in a depressed area. He is a top student with very little effort. When it comes time for teacher recs, every teacher will comment on what a terrific student he is. However, he in no way puts in the time and effort my D does into his studies, ECs, etc. He is probably the only kid in his class who will apply to top tier schools. And he is confident he will get in. There is just about no competition for him and he easily sweeps awards, etc. Incidentally, he moved to this area from a much more competitive school just before hs started and so he came into hs much better prepared than his peers.</p>
<p>When you are in the situation my D is in, it is difficult as a parent to sit back and just let your kid be a kid. Will she get into a good school? Probably. But if you have a kid who thinks one of the ivys is their perfect match, it is hard to let that dream die. Also, if your kid is in a school where many of the kids do get into ivys, it can be doubly hard on a child who is rejected. Had I known going into this how competitive things were, I probably would have made different choices for my child.</p>
<p>So, I sympathize with parents who would like to see the process be more transparent, but I guess I recognize that there are so many factors that we have no control over that I don’t know if in the end it will make a difference. I am sure if you attend a very competitive hs, even though you are probably better prepared than most students, your odds of getting into an ivy are probably lower just because the talent pool from your school is so good. In the end it is a numbers game.</p>
<p>When my older child was approaching h.s. age, we were advised to send them to one of the competitive privates in the area because of the exact reverse logic of Vango: it was pointed out that the local school had a poor track record with the ivies and other elites, that the gc had no relationship with any of the adcoms at such colleges, and that at the private school, there was a yearly cohort of kids accepted to the very top schools. However, my kids were both really content with their social lives, didn’t want the change, and frankly, we liked the idea of keeping them local. It also seemed that our school, while far from perfect, had enough honors and AP classes to keep them challenged (and our school went way beyond the norm to meet my son’s math needs). Anyway, for us, it worked out, and I did end up feeling like Vango: if you are a strong candidate, it is easier to stand out in the less competitive environment.</p>
<p>But,— an interesting anecdote–we recently got together with a couple who’s son is a junior at an exclusive private “feeder” school to the ivies, and apparantly is a very top student there. Well, the father asked me for advice about schools such as Yale and Harvard. Well, I thought I was seeking some wisdom about how to get in (not that I could have really offered him anything, of course!). Anyway, as I started to speak, he clarified: he wanted to know my advice about which school his son should pick! In other words, they have been told by their gc that it is a foregone conclusion that their son will have such choices. Needless to say, I was taken by surprise, —but apparantly, at schools such as his, students at the very top can assume the outcome. Go figure.</p>
<p>Donemom - </p>
<p>I agree, students at the very top of feeder schools can probably, for the most part, pick which ivy they want to go to. Most of the feeder schools are so competitive that the ivys recognize that anyone at the top is the cream of the cream of the crop.</p>
<p>However, for students not quite at the top, I think it becomes a disadvantage to be in a competitive school. The expectations are a lot higher and the student has to do more and be more to stand out. The assumption is that the student in this environment has had every advantage - the ivys want to see what they have done with all those opportunities. In that respect, I think it is easier to shine in a less competitive environment where the student is not competing for leadership positions. In my D’s school, everyone wants a leadership position and competition to be editor-in-chief, etc. is fierce. When you have a less ivy-oriented student body, it is probably not too hard to get leadership positions.</p>
<p>On the other hand, being in this competitive environment probably is the best preparation for the rigors of ivy league schools. My D has been told she writes on the level of a grad student. So even if she doesn’t make it into an ivy, she at least has had a great education.</p>
<p>"The whole thrust of “what do colleges want” and “what do I need to do to get in” is a concept that is very very low key where I live. "</p>
<p>Ditto.I thinks its pretty insane that young kids are “doing EC’s” because they think some “elite school wants it”.Pretty sad way to live out your teen years.They are tough enough already without this added pressure</p>
<p>Vango, you do bring up the differences in a competitive HS environment and one that is not. Ours is not competitive when it comes to competing with others as to who is the best and “strategies” needed to get into a top college, etc. I am fully aware of what you are talking about because I have heard of it from others who live where the environment is as you depict. I can appreciate that. My kids grew up in a rural area. One thing that differs, however, from your depiction of your nephew’s experiences is that it wasn’t EASY here. My kids worked their butts off in school. Many hours of homework per night after about five hours of ECs each night as well. So, easy doesn’t describe their experience at a rural public HS, but hard work does. The thing is, the top students here can rivel those at the most elite prep schools or suburban public high schools. The difference is that our ENTIRE school is not like that, as it is where you live. A small number will be applying to very selective schools. The kids in the top track classes are all excellent students. Many do not aspire to big name colleges necessarily but they can compete with those from the best high schools in the land. It is just that they do not represent the majority of the school population, but just around the top 15% who are qualified for very selective colleges (though not all will apply to them). The level of the schoolwork they were given was very demanding. It is just that there are also kids at their high school (clearly NOT in their classes) who are not even going to go to college. That is how it differs. It may be easier to stand out in this crowd, but for those who do, they are “on level” with a large number at a high school like yours. In other words, once these kids get to very selective colleges, they fare very well because they are just as qualified. </p>
<p>Donemom brings up a point that has been discussed a lot over the years on CC (if you stay long enough on CC, every topic gets recycled!!)…and that is the pros/cons of certain types of high schools when it comes to selective college admissions. An advantage of going to a well known prep school or well regarded public is that the colleges have ongoing relationships with these feeder schools. They know the guidance counselors (read The Gatekeepers as it really demonstrates this and was an eye opener for me). They talk to the guidance offices about these students. As well, they have accepted many from the high school before and know what they are getting so to speak. They are familiar enough with the high school to know it curriculum or grading policies and to put a students’ record in context. A drawback, however, is that even though a well know prep type high school will send many to elite colleges, the majority of the student body are applying to the very same colleges and in essence are competing with one another for those slots because elite colleges won’t take 20 from one high school even if they are all qualified. Then there are those who go to an unknown public school. Many elite colleges have never heard of these schools. Many have not accepted any students from them in the past. They don’t have a rapport with the GCs there. The GCs themselves are not as well versed on elite college admissions and what is involved. The pro can be that elite colleges are looking for diversity and want kids from different areas of the country and different backgrounds. Being from a rural school is “different” than the hordes applying from the same elite preps and known publics. Each situation, therefore, has its pros/cons. </p>
<p>What I observe now that my kid happens to be at an Ivy league school is that there are LOTS of kids from private prep schools attending. When she got there, she remarked that she hardly knew any public school kids like herself. Clearly they are there but there are lots from privates too. At our high school, she was the only kid in her graduating class of 160 to go to ANY Ivy that year. In contrast, her roomie at her Ivy went to an exclusive prep day school with 80 graduates and just in the ED round alone to Brown, 6 got in. This basically fits what I was saying. Kids from a high school like that have a good chance and the prep schools sends many to this one Ivy alone, a significant percentage. But obviously more kids were applying from that high school. My D had one rejection (after an EA deferral) and it was at Yale. Many reasons, including the crapshoot odds, could be why. However, ALSO I don’t know anyone from our HS who has gone to Yale. She also got waitlisted at one school, Princeton. Again, I don’t believe anyone from our HS has gone to Princeton. The year before her, the sal got waitlisted. She was val and was waitlisted the next year. While very few go to Ivies, two years before my D got into Brown, the val got into and attends Brown. Now, she got in. I have no idea if the fact that they had taken a kid before helped but just observing that the two schools that did not admit her had also never admitted a student before to my knowledge from our HS. So, there are trends and pros/cons of coming out of private or known publics that are “competitive” or “good high schools” as well as coming out of unknown public high schools when it comes to elite college admissions.</p>
<p>Here’s a nice EC example that I found on another CC board. What’s nice is that it’s clear that the student was creatively pursuing a real interest, not doing something to try to impress colleges.
"Last year on my app I included as an EC meeting with a Russian girl once a week for 3 hours each to discuss Russian literature… "</p>
<p>In ref to Vango’s post, I believe that preparation (for college) cannot be overemphasized. D2 complains that she is in the kind of prep school that has been described (very hard to stand out), & that in an “easier” school she would be near the top or at the top. However, there are no “one-rung-down” schools in our area. You have a choice: tough, or lame. For lame you could also substitute “embarrassing.” And btw, college admissions results reflect that reality, too. Graduates of non-tough schools (which would include many privates & many publics) mostly go to mid-level or lower-tier colleges – regardless of their standing at graduation, though many apply to top schools & seem sure they have a good chance of admission if their high school is private, or if it’s a public in an expensive area. (Surprise!)</p>
<p>The graduates of tough schools that I know, are accepted to excellent U’s & colleges as long as their GPA is 3.5+. (And yes, only the cream go to Ivies.) Graduates in good standing consistently fare better in the quality of their acceptances than the Vals of the lame schools do. But more important, to me, is that the quality of the education at the tough schools is way better, esp. as preparation for college. You can’t slide by with your work (as you can even in <em>some</em> of the high-rent publics I can think of – the kinds where students graduate with 10-12 AP classes regularly, pass those exams, but are not necessarily required to do demanding classwork in those AP courses to match the AP designation). You are required to really write, really think, revise to a high standard, read very tough material (often even in non-Honors classes). Almost all the textbooks are college texts, for just the college prep classes.</p>
<p>Epiphany, while it is hard to generalize, I understand what you are saying that those at the top of a less regarded public HS may not be as well prepared and/or it was easier to slide by at those high schools and get by and still get good grades. </p>
<p>I don’t know about anywhere else so can ONLY comment about my kids’ experiences at an unknown rural public high school. Their highest tracked classes were VERY demanding. They had many hours of homework per night and on the weekends and vacations and summers. In some ways, when I read about what others have written here about AP classes at more well regarded high schools and all this learning geared toward AP exams, I think my kids in some ways, had better preparation. They did not have exams with mulitiple choice questions. Their exams were essays. But beyond exams, their courses did not teach to tests. They were required to read primary sources. They also had to write MANY papers that were analytic papers on a regular basis. My daughters’ 9th grade Honors English class ended with a writing portfolio binder that was 500 pages long. Every night required a three page paper. The exams had ten analytical essay questions and were 10-15 pages typed when done. Their Honors integrated History/English classes in 11th and 12th involved numerous analytical essays every marking period. Final papers were analytical research and comparative papers that were 20 pages. In French, they were writing papers in French, including research papers and essays. Unlike some schools that I read about that are focused on AP exams, these kids were required to read the kinds of source books read in college courses and write papers. When my kids got to college, both felt very prepared. One even asked me to send her some binders from high school and she found that her college class was dealing with things she had done in high school (she goes to Brown now). In one college class, on a midterm with essay questions, in a large class of about 100 students, the professor shared her essay answer as examplary to the class. I really think she was prepared to handle the work. She worked her butt off in high school and was used to demanding hours of homework and time management with ECs, etc. My other kid at NYU, which is a selective school even if not an Ivy, had writing professors tell her that her work stood out in the class and invited her to take upper class Honors courses. My children were very used to having to write. They did not struggle at all at college with having to write papers. While my D never took the AP French exam, she placed out of several French levels at Brown and has done well in three French classes there and is fluent. She went there very well prepared in that area. She was able to handle the beginning levels of engineering as well and had accelerated in math here beyond her HS’s offerings. </p>
<p>From my experience, while schools like ours are not competitive overall and the majority are not vying for top colleges, the rigor of the work in the hardest tracked classes and the ability and achievement level of those in the most demanding courses, is in line with those at a very well regarded HS. What is different is that is a smaller fraction of our entire school, rather than the majority such as at a HS like yours or an elite prep school. It is not easy to get an A in the hardest classes here. Unlike some schools that have many vals, we only have one val because only one kid got all As. While I don’t think our HS is anything to write home about, far from it, I do believe that the hardest courses there were rigorous and I have gone back to thank a few of those teachers for how well prepared they made my kids with all the kinds of learning and types of papers they had to do and that they have done just fine now at challenging colleges. </p>
<p>There are really good students at ANY high school. There just are not as many of them. It is sorta like the discussions of top colleges vs. less selective colleges. Great students exist everywhere but the proportions differ in each setting. Some families where we live send their children away to elite prep boarding schools (some with the hopes that it will get them into a better college). We did not opt to do that. But my child could have gotten into a very good boarding school, I’m sure of it. But she went to our little 'ole public. She is still the same person who may have been at the elite boarding school. One friend who went away to a top boarding school is now going to Vassar. Another just was choosing between Brown and Williams. My feeling is that these kids could have gone to the same colleges even if coming out of our high school (top students have gone to Brown or Williams before). The difference would be that their high school experience would have been different. Yes, going to Deerfield is nothing like going to our HS! The students from here who went to those schools are still who they’d be in terms of smarts, etc. if they had stayed here. And we definitely have some very strong students here, just not an entire school full of them. I think what was required in the hardest classes here is not unlike that which is required at a well regarded high school. The rest of the classes here, however, likely are NOT like what is at a prep school.</p>
<p>Soozievt, I’m reading your two recent posts on this thread and my mouth is hanging open in amazement. You could be writing about my daughter, her school, and the nature of college admissions at her school! What you describe is EXACTLY her situation. If I can figure out how the private message feature works I’ll send you a private message.</p>
<p>Soozie -</p>
<p>I think your kids are very lucky to have had the hs experience they had, however, like epiphany says, for some of us the choice of our local public was just not acceptable. I myself went to a rural public and felt I got a wonderful education. We had a bunch of dedicated, experienced teachers who put 100% into the school. When I went off to college, I found I was better prepared than most students and never felt at a disadvantage to any of my prep school peers.</p>
<p>However, even though we do not live in an economically disadvantaged area, our experience with the public system where we live now was dismal. It was in some ways a difficult decision to remove our kids from public school (money, transportation, social issues), but at the time we felt we had no choice. The flip side is that they are now in a school which is competitive in what I feel is an unhealthly way. But as epiphany said, those are the two extremes we are faced with. I am very much in favor of vouchers for that reason - so that parents can exercise some control over the public education their kids receive and are entitled to receive.</p>
<p>"There are really good students at ANY high school. "</p>
<p>Whoa, that statement is open to a lot of qualification, i.m.o. In my area, if they are “really good,” they won’t be there for long. If there’s not a better public they can transfer to easily, nor a private they can afford & is open for enrollment, they’ll transfer out to private (independent) study. The reason is that most “really good” students “really” care about peer inspiration. Further, if he or she is so stand-out, what it means in our area is that the teacher is teaching to the overwhelming numbers of non-stand-outs, NOT to the lone student. I am not denying that there are really good students at MOST high schools; I would not universalize that to all, however. And there are cases of excellent loners who stick it out despite the discouragement of peer achievement & peer standards. Sometimes such students have at least some support at home (with educated parents or reinforcing parents) or at least one mentor at school: teacher, counselor, principal truly, similarly interested in achievement & rewarding, encouraging that.</p>
<p>I’m not denying that in selected poor-performing rural, urban, suburban cases there are singular individuals making it into upper-level schools. Some of these people post on cc. But in our area anyway, the reputation of the school has been far more of a consistent predictor of admissions results than any other factor, including an attempt to “outguess” the college’s preferences vis-a-vis e.c.'s, (suggested earlier), artificially molding oneself into some kind of “desirable” candidate, etc.</p>
<p>I bring this up only because it has been discussed here, and has also been discussed previously on cc (PF & Admissions) as a question: Should our family move to a lame school so that the student can shine? Lame does not mean rural, necessarily. And soozie’s children’s experience bears that out & does not contradict the trends in our area. (In our area, in fact, lame would more likely be urban than anything else.)</p>
<p>Soozievt, I just tried to send you a message. This is my first one so I may have done something wrong, but it says that your message box is full. Let me know if I can send it, thanks.</p>