<p>My french is more “jeune fille des goutierres” (?sp)</p>
<p>and my daughter has been taught the Spanish version of “get yo’ hand off my :eek:”. It’s all in how you were raised. ;)</p>
<p>
Hopefully my point came out that while she may very well be amazing, her accomplishment that best showed this was rather simple, basic, cheap, low-tech , and didn’t require foreign travel or a thousand hours. She saw a hole in the dyke and stuck her finger in it and everyone perceives her as special (including me), while she just thought it was a natural outgrowth of what she witnessed.</p>
<p>So, here it is in a nutshell, I think kids are writing about the wrong stuff. They are writing about what they think makes them seem special , what folks have told them looks good. I think most thoughtful, caring, intelligent kids WHO ARE DOERS , not just preparing to do something, can find something like my D found to write about. See a hole, plug a hole, and write about how that changed you.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon:</p>
<p>Exactly! This is what I posted earlier:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And I should have added: “and showing so much imagination and creativity and initiative.” Exactly what colleges look for when they try to sort out the brilliant from the hard-working. Both kinds may earn As and have similar SAT scores, but your D is a stand-out.</p>
<p>GFG wrote:
“But, as you say, you would have perhaps made adjustments if you had known the “rules” were not really rules at all.”</p>
<p>Marite wrote:
“And finally, I have always disliked the idea implied in the thread title, that students ought to do ECs so that they will more attractive to colleges. I prefer fitting the college to the kid rather than the kid to the college.”</p>
<p>GFG…following up on what Marite wrote, I don’t think it matters if one knows the rules, the colleges change the rules, or want students to have x, y, or z. NOTHING of that sort would change anything my kids did growing up or in high school. Simply put, they challenged themselves with their curriculum through taking the most demanding classes available, indep. studies, and acceleration because they wanted to, not because they had to…and participated in and/or initiated extracurricular activities during the school year and summers because they were dying to do them and had gotten interested in and had been doing them since they were quite young and wanted to continue them in college if possible. They didn’t gear what they did toward what colleges wanted. They just were who they were. When it came time to apply to colleges, they found schools that fit their personal criteria and then documented and showed who they were on the applications and in interviews. My kids were not up on what colleges want, nor did they make any decisions with college in mind, other than the decision to do their best in academics because by doing well in school, more opportunities to go to college would be available. Kinda simple.</p>
<p>Cur…</p>
<p>Are you sure there were no goats frolicking in a corner of that hospital corridor??? I thought for sure that goats would make it into your daughter’s musings…</p>
<p>Seriously - great essay that showed who your daughter really is and what she’s about.</p>
<p>GFG, I am wondering what you think the value would be of more “transparency” from the elite colleges: are you saying that it would be better to discourage students from applying? or to soften the blow if they don’t get in?</p>
<p>I ask that because there is nothing a student who does not have national or statewide recognition or accomplishments can do to change that – so the only real benefit of seeing the types of profiles of *some<a href=“definitely%20not%20all”>/i</a> candidates is to scare off the candidate who has nothing special to set him apart. As in: “oh, I haven’t won any big awards, I am not a URM, I am not a recruited athlete, so therefore even though I am class valedictorian and have 2300 on the SATs, I might as well not apply.”</p>
<p>The problem with that is that every year the elites admit many students who fall into the great grades, great scores, EC’s ok but nothing special category. They also reject many of the same. The only way you can get admitted is to apply – so while it would be a great help for top students to understand that their admission is not assured, I’m not sure what the point is of providing more information beyond that, assuming that the student does have the ballpark grades and test scores required for admission. </p>
<p>I’d also note that students who have statewide or national recognition for anything are not likely to be the ones in the dark as to what impresses top colleges – the same activities that earn them the accolades probably also bring them in contact with other highly competitive students and give them the reality check that you seem to be saying is needed.</p>
<p>I’m also not sure whether more info is going to be heeded in any case. I told my daughter that it was a waste of time to apply to Brown, that she would never get in, etc. – and all I got was 2 kids who were ticked off at me for not being supportive enough (my son was my biggest critic – he thought I should have been more encouraging). I can see my daughter’s rationale: obviously the most important requisite to getting in is that you must submit an application. Fortunately for my daughter, Brown was not a top choice and the other colleges she targetted were somewhat easier to get into – but I can see the same sort of thinking going on in the mind of any ambitious kid who is aiming for an Ivy.</p>
<p>i didnt read anyones post in this thread, but i personally think ECs are totally overrated among highschoolers- u just need like 2 with great commitment to it… i know poeple who play sports and join clubs and think there set or somthing</p>
<p>from my experience, i barely had any ECs and got into far better schools than some friends who are 3 sport varsity athletes (we are all about the same academically)… i think outsied of grades, colleges value rec letters and essay more than dumb clubs etc </p>
<p>ONLY PLAY A SPORT OR JOIN A CLUB IF IT ENTERTAINS YOU- DONT BE THAT KID WHO DOES EVERYTHING AND HONESTLY HATES IT (and i guarantee we all know some asian kid like that)</p>
<p>“And finally, I have always disliked the idea implied in the thread title, that students ought to do ECs so that they will more attractive to colleges. I prefer fitting the college to the kid rather than the kid to the college.”</p>
<p>I agree and yet…</p>
<p>If you’re aware of where the bar is you can decide whether or not to make the extra bit of effort to measure up. My son for example has been thinking off and on about some java open source code he’d like to work on. Recently he said he thought he’d work on it more seriously this summer because it would be something he thought would look good on applications. It something he wants to do, but he might just have spent his time playing computer games instead, or doing Civ 4 mods. He already knows he made things harder for himself by choosing not to do the science research course sequence our school offers. Playing on computers is his major EC time-wise, but elite colleges will be looking for something besides being a level 99 ■■■■■.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, regardless of how anything else turns out in your D’s life, you will always know that she’s had an impact on vulnerable people who find themselves in a scary situation. That goes a lot farther than any Ivy league degree or anything else in my opinion. What a great job you and her mom have done in raising such a thoughtful and action oriented young lady!</p>
<p>I agree with mathmom. It’s not that we want to create styrofoam children with pretend resumes etc. and a bunch of kneejerk soulless activities they participate in with zero joy. But if you have a kid who likes a certain kind of activity and there’s a choice between productive versions of that activity and wholly time-frittering versions, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the occasional nudge towards the productive.</p>
<p>As long as, of course, there is some time left over for the purely recreational for those kids who don’t like to be eating up the world at every minute. Me, I can’t survive if I don’t have time to read and stare out of the window:) so I wouldn’t expect a kid to survive either…</p>
<p>Don’t forget that it’s not only grades, test scores, essays, ECs, teacher recs, etc. that go into the admit/reject decision at a “top school.” Some of the factors that adcoms consider are not things you can prep or plan for. Or compete against. Is an applicant the first in the family to attend college? A first-generation American? A high achiever from low or low-middle income family? Interesting URM? Successful despite coping with a personal tragedy?
Just knowing the bare bones about certain applicants – class rank, SAT score, EC list – will not help anyone understand an adcom’s decision to accept one over the other.</p>
<p>
Oh, they were there. ;)</p>
<p>mathmom:</p>
<p>Well, maybe the adcoms at the colleges where he got accepted saw something in my S’s profile that I don’t see; certainly not something that can be quantified. Not a single state or regional award in his ECs. A top 10% student but not top 10. Probably great recs–I know his teachers and GC liked him a lot; they still remember him fondly. A nice essay, but not on a “wow!” level. It can’t have been a fluke: he got into 4 top 20 LACs. Anyway, I didn’t push him to do what he did not want to do. The GC kept urging him to take AP-Calc and he refused; I backed him up. As I wrote earlier, I prefer to fit the college to the kid rather than the kid to the college. Despite the fact that my S ignored her advice re: AP-Calc, the GC was happy to recommend a list of schools that turned out to be good fit for my S.</p>
<p>Cur,
Hate to go back a page, but just read the story about your daughter. Reminded me of why we left our old public school – my son was in second grade when a boy came to join the class, he was Russian, just adopted by an American family, and spoke no English. My son went on the computer that night and came up with a bunch of helpful phrases for the teacher and other classmates (the bathroom is down the hall, do you want to play, do you need help, etc) which he wrote out phonetically from the Russian. The teacher looked at the sheet and handed it back to my son, saying the district was sending a helper, so that wouldn’t be necessary. No, nice job, or how sweet, or anything! Okay, vent over. But, that’s the spark that you would hope someone would notice and care about. I’m glad for your daughter that not only was she able to help a lot of people, but that someone saw that she was something special.</p>
<p>To The GFG, I never said anything about the Ivies. I applied to mid and lower level LACs, GTown (my Dad’s alma mater) and Dartmouth because I won the Dartmouth Award and the alum club encouraged me to apply. When I refer to the “rules” I meant don’t just study for grades and scores, be interesting and passionate in a couple of areas. I am. I have won academic awards. That’s what I meant about the “rules.” I read the “guides and books” ad nauseum and felt that I had things well in hand. My GC thought so also. I approached this process well informed and honestly. It’s just now I know and our GC agrees that it is a crapshoot. It’s my story and I’m sticking with it.</p>
<p>BurnThis, that has to be one of the worst life lessons ever. Go out of your way to help the new lost foreign kid and the teacher hand it back to you. And in the second grade. Just astounding. I’d have given him a gold star myself. </p>
<p>Actually, I’d suggest to him that he could write about it now. </p>
<p>(2011 Students who are reading this: there are project ideas aplenty in BurnThis’ story. Does your district have an influx of kids with a language barrier? What have you done to fix it? A second grader had an idea. What about you? Community service can be anywhere. Great ideas can happen to anyone. Lots of folks write about their future plans, but nothing convinces like showing the adcoms how you plugged that hole in the dyke everybody else was walking right by. )</p>
<p>Even the venerable Ivies are not completely filled with the types of renaissance young people who are the progeny of CCers. How noble, how kind, how creative, how brilliant! Not a moment goes by in which they are not changing the world for the better. And the passion, such passion about learning and for their EC endeavors. Not once have they lacked joy in their involvements or studies, not once have they participated out of such ignoble motives as duty or obligation or horrors–building a resume. They just are who they were, and that is more than enough. </p>
<p>Newsflash!!! Your kids are the cream of the crop and deserve all that is coming to them. BUT, the Ivies still have room left for the Gingers of the world who just work hard, do the best they know how to do, and achieve the goal of attending one of the country’s best schools. I don’t know a single child from my S’s HS who is like your renaissance children. They are very motivated, ambitious, and calculating kids who do what they think they need to do to get in the top schools. In fact, each year there’s a new “ticket” these kids try out. Several years ago starting your own club was in vogue. That practice continues to the present. This year it seems that internships were the hot thing. Regardless, I can assure you they are not doing all these things out of some deep-seated passion that ignited when they were 7 years old. Most would prefer to relax, hang with their friends, and watch American Idol instead of going to that club meeting. They are doing what they are doing to primarily get into college and by golly, they’re succeeding. Now along the way, they may discover a true interest or talent that they’d do regardless, but for the most they’re working towards a goal.</p>
<p>This thread is not for the first group. They’ll do fine no matter what. This thread is for the second group.</p>
<p>The GFG, you ought to know me better than that by now.
</p>
<p>My kid was volunteering so she could look good on her resume and more specifically so she could show patient contact on her resume in her direct admission BS/Md. application. We were told it was almost a prerequisite. I don’t mind saying that was the motivation for the service. Now what she did there, that was her doing. How she responded to the need, that was her doing, and it didn’t have much to do with anything but what she felt needed to be done. </p>
<p>I have had no problem admitting that she was acquiring volunteer hours, looking for merit aid, positioning herself for the best rec’s, cared about val status and actively competed for it, prepared some (not much, I would recommend more) for the ACT, and I think there is more than that I’ve admitted. I don’t know how I could be more transparent about it. I’m Everyman and my kid is Everygirl. We read and prepared for the process. We came here and asked for help. Marite, and SBmom, and jmmom, carolyn and cangel, and TheDad, and a host of a hundred other giving decent people walked me through this. I was not a bright pupil. I was “reluctant”. We are as far from snoots as one can get. We don’t pretend to be what we are not , and personally I think that helped her get in. My gosh, we have tried to light the way for as many regular kids as we can even as we were going through it ourselves, to pay back those who lit the way for us. That’s why I am still here. That’s why I’m trying to help you. Boy genius Saint Intel, the Beneficent-in -the -making doesn’t need my help.</p>
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</p>
<p>Okay: it seems that this whole thread is about divining what colleges want so that you can turn your kid into this desirable product. That’s never been the way I wanted to raise my kids.</p>
<p>Since S1 graduated several years ago, I have no personal stake in this discussion. But to reiterate: S1 did not walk on water, he did not cure cancer, he is not in line for a Nobel prize. And that was okay. We looked for colleges that would suit him; we did not try to make him fit the colleges. There were two reaches on his list; he got rejected from both and we were not surprised or upset.</p>
<p>Another consideration. There’s more to fit than getting in. There’s also STAYING IN. </p>
<p>End of my participation in this thread.</p>