What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

xiggi · May 6, 2006, 11:21pm

“Some kids don’t make the team who have great skill, have all the attributes, but get cut cause they don’t need three left footed mid fielders, that does not mean that the players on the team are better”

What sports would that be? It is MOST DEFINITELY not true in soccer, and anyone who has the smallest knowledge of the sport would know how silly the comment is. A team could be made of 11 right footed players as well as 11 left footed ones. Coaches make mistakes just like everyone does but they do not cut players because they kick with one foot or another.

And, again, the pipeline high school >>>> college is not identical for all sports. For many sports, the high school is simply not relevant. Do you think that Sarah Hughes’s high school was important in admissions?

ELLTWO · May 7, 2006, 2:15am

As a high school student it is interesting hearing the comparison between sports and music. I have been playing the violin for nine years. I am involved in, 2 orchestras, 2 chamber groups, opera group, and two other musical groups. When I started high school this year my gc wanted me to do a sport. It seems in my school if you are in the IB program you should do a sport, this includes 200 lbs kids running track! What really burns me is I would love to do a sport, but when would I fit this in. Some of the kids play sports because they love it, but some of them play because the school gives them p.e. credit and it allows them to do other classes. This is also an added benefit because it raises their gpa. We also have kids who will take up an instrument and this is great, but we do not have jv and varsity divisions. So we have to play incredible easy songs to help them fill in their requirement for performing art.

vonlost · May 7, 2006, 2:36am

Whatever the EC, making it to the top carries weight, especially over a long period. Girl Scout Gold, Boy Scout Eagle, lifelong dance to pointe ballerina, president of a significant HS club, sports captain: It’s more important how you do it than what you do.

ellemenope · May 7, 2006, 3:17am

And if you will continue doing it in college. … There were some colleges that asked how likely the applicant was to continue the EC in college (on a scale of 1 to 5).

TheDad · May 7, 2006, 3:59am

Note re: ballet: I found out, too late, that decent pointe dancers are a dime a hundred, at least in the zone of HYPSM schools. (Silly me…I’d thought that brainy dancers with outstanding penchees would be a novelty.) Unless you’re good enough that you’re going to summer programs like SAB, San Francisco, or PNB as opposed to the ABT’s, Miami, Rock, or wonderful little programs like Jillana…forget about the ballet being much more than an “eh” to the admissions committee. Imo and in my experience. Who knew. There were approximately 2-3 good ballet dancers at my D’s large hs of 3,500 students.

calmom · May 7, 2006, 5:20am

Actually, TheDad, I don’t think the years & years of ballet and dance training hurt my daughter at all in her application to Barnard. In fact, I think that might have been one of the key elements that got her in. I say that because once she was accepted, I noticed that Barnard’s got a lot of dance students. Now that I think about it, I think that they have a substantial investment in their dance department and they want to have a steady stream of students to take their intermediate & advanced classes.

Of course that is all about matching the EC to the school – though I would have thought that Barnard already had more than enough applicants who were dancers.

So while I don’t think the dance training is a “hook”, I do think that it is the kind of EC that shows dedication and commitment and tends to impress the ad coms. The thing with ballet is that it usually takes years of training and a tremendous amount of practice – plus dancers who do pointe work have demonstrated that they are willing to torture themselves and endure all sorts of pain in pursuit of an elusive, aesthetic goal.

fendrock · May 7, 2006, 8:02am

TheDad – do you think adcoms aren’t impressed with ballet because they don’t know enough about it to be impressed?

Or is it because they do know something about it, and feel that in general ballet students are not the type of student they are seeking (cf discussion above, in contrast to varsity sports, for example)?

[P.S. - Wild speculation, but I would think the percentage of the student population that would be able to achieve to the point of being able to attend even a Rock or a Jillana would be no greater than the percentage that does varsity sports.]

jyber209 · May 7, 2006, 8:34am

(disclaimer: Please do not take the following as at all a put-down of dancers. My own daughter danced in a pre-professional program for many years and continues to enjoy taking dance classes today. I have lots of respect for the discipline, dedication, passion, and artistic sensibilities of many student dancers. BUT regarding copllege admissions …)

Good point, I think. On the ultra-selective level (HYPSM, etc.) ballet is not a hook at all mainly because, I suspect, adcoms perceive these dancers right off as “girls of privilege,” who have had tremendous parental support. Adcoms are much more attracted to kids whose apps suggest fewer advantages and more personal initiative.

Think about it: Most dancers’ parents have paid for and chauffeured them to dance classes (often since the age of three), have paid for costumes and recital fees, as well as perhaps summer programs that are more pay per body than intensely selective.

In my experience, the dancers who are likely to do well with elite college admissions are those who took their passion and did something “above and beyond” with it. One I knew of started her own program of several dancers regularly performing in nursing homes; others developed an outreach program to teach underprivileged kids dance after school, etc. Admittedly, doing this is almost an impossible challenge for those involved in programs that demand daily classes as well as weekend and evening rehearsals. But some students have chosen to get off the competitive dance track to take an alternative approach to how dance will be a part of their lives.

Another dancer with whom I worked on college admissions (through a grant-funded program) paid for her own lessons by assisting at her studio, helping with pre-school classes. She wrote her essay not on her own dancing, but on dealing with little girls having accidents on stage during their recital piece, calming the anxieties of newbies, etc. Her joy of sharing her love of dance came through in an unaffected and unpretentious way.

The other aspect of dance as opposed to team sports is that dance is not always so much a “give it up for the team!” experience so much as a “who will get what role, position on stage?” scene.

Again, I think dance is wonderful and my family much enjoyed our D’s involvements – as well as our son’s experience as a Nutcracker party boy – but an elite college hook was never part of the package. (Well, perhaps for him it could have been, but he early on gave up ballet for bikling. ;))

Northstarmom · May 7, 2006, 9:14am

I’ve seen no evidence that adcoms at top colleges dislike ballet dancers. The problem, however, is that a student has to be a spectacular dancer in order to stand out from the crowd at a place like HPYS.

The same is true of students who do virtually any other reasonably common EC in that millieu. A student who dances the lead in their local production of the Nutcracker may be renowned in their hometown, but isn’t likely to stand out in top colleges’ pools because lots of students have made similar achievements.

Now, if the student danced a main part with the NY City ballet or at whatever NY’s theatrical public high school is and had the scores, gpa and coursework that met the standards of a top college, they would probably be at an advantage because clearly they would be among the best young ballet dancers in the country.

I also agree with jyber that a dancer who took their passion above and beyond – won a state level science fair award for a project related to the physics of dancing, started a dance program for the underprivileged, won history fair at the state level for something related to the history of dance – would stand out in the pool even if their talent was not at the level of the hypothetical examples I listed earlier.

I, too, have noticed that Barnard seems to accept dancers that places like HPYS reject.

taxguy · May 7, 2006, 9:27am

Jyber209 notes,"On the ultra-selective level (HYPSM, etc.) ballet is not a hook at all "

Response: I am not sure this is totally true. I think people are misinterpreting my message. Ballet can be a hook under two circumstances:

<ol>
<li>Your daughter applies to a ballet program and/or</li>
<li>She demonstrates a lot of PASSION and ABILITY. For example, someone who takes lessons weekly, participates in dance competitions and wins some decent placement in these competitions, works at their state ballet company would be considered passionate in my opinion! In fact, I would note on the college applications how many hours of lessons were taken.</li>
</ol>

Again, the key is determination and passion. Simply taking ballet, participating in band, being on the student newspaper, being in plays aren’t enough. It doesn’t show real passion, and these ECs don’t stand out.

This is not to say that kids shouldn’t do these things, but they won’t alone get kids into top schools no matter how many are on the laundry list of ECs. It is better to take a few ECs or even one EC and REALLY show a passion for it.

Let me give an example, my daughter got into every school, such as CMU, she applied to in design, with the exception of being wait listed at RISD. She even got merit scholarship at most schools too.She didn’t have an amazing GPA or SATs.

She was in a humanities magnet program that required a senior research project and an oral defense and had taken mostly honors and AP courses. This alone, probably wouldn’t have been enough for these schools. However, she took lessons at least 4-6 hours per week to work on her portfolio. In addition, she took classes on the weekends at our local community college in both design and in various software applications, which she drove herself too. She also attended two pre-college courses during the summer and did well in them. She also worked at a local graphic design/printing house during the year and during one summer, and also had some strong ECs in music during her 4 years in high school, which is her major hobby. Finally, she participated in various national and local art competitions, although she didn’t win.

Note: I am not here to brag about my daughter,whom I am proud of. I just wanted to show an example of what I consider demonstrated passion and determination.

This demonstrated passion. Kids need to find some area where they can show admission’s committees the same drive and passion. It can be in music, art, dance, athletics, science, writing etc.

As far as sports, yes, it certainly takes a LOT of time and passion. However, kids that play instruments, take lessons and practice can be puting in just as much time. I can guarantee that my daughter put in as much time in preparing her portfolio and taking courses as that of almost any athlete. Personally, I think the reason that schools give an edge to varsity athletes stem from the old Greek philosophy of “sound body- sound mind.” Moreover, as demonstrated in an older thread, top schools wanted “more attractive” kids in their schools. I guess athletic kids are probably thin and trim.

Alumother · May 7, 2006, 10:31am

Note: Princeton is also looking for dancers. They are one of the v. few ivies that has a dance program where classes count as academic credits - and they just got a huge donation to expand their creative arts program. My D, who spent a summer at ABT NYC (more like SF and PND than the other ABT programs), also sent a CD of her dancing. I am reasonably sure that contributed to her acceptance. Of course, while she was dancing she was also co-editor in chief of the newspaper and involved in multiple things and started the dance club at school so perhaps it was just one of those cases where they thought, hmmm, how does a kid spend so many hours doing this stuff and still have the >4.0GPA?

However, I would not assume that ballet doesn’t matter. It’s just that a water polo player with the skills equivalent to someone accepted to ABT Detroit would be much more desireable.

JEM · May 7, 2006, 10:34am

I agree with Northstarmom that NYCB-level experience will be a hook, as that is at the level of national recognition in an activity, which is what those schools will pay attention to.

Perhaps top schools don’t so much dislike dancers, as that they don’t see the typical locally strong dancers as offering anything to get them pulled out of a pile for special consideration.

Also, considering the interest the extra-selective schools have in developing more socio-economically diverse student bodies, dance schools are not the best prospecting fields for addressing that particular institutional goal. And I do think that there can be some “privileged princess” reaction to some such applicants.

I have found some very solid - although not AWS selectivity level - colleges that were particularly interested in applicants with strong dance or music backgrounds, sometimes because the schools were developing more substantial performing arts spaces, and wanted lots of talented enrollees to make good use of them.

response to taxguy: IMO, passion and ability are not enough for the ultra-selective schools. Again, I am talking those with single-digit selectivity rates (HYS…). At that level, passion and ability are par for the course. That is where the something above and beyond, unique or extra-specal (“hook”) comes into play.

And Calmom, re Barnard, yes, I do think dance is a plus for applicants there, if only because it suggests such a good “fit” between the very strong dance program the school offers and the interests of the applicant. Several of the women-only schools are likely to be delighted to have dancers applying, but again the selectivity/competition level is not as intense as at HYS.

I do think that serious dancers often learn to excel at time-management and self-discipline, very useful skills in college - and life!

atlantamom · May 7, 2006, 10:40am

I haven’t read all the posts on this thread, so forgive me if this already has been mentioned. I think that Karabel’s “The Chosen” (don’t know how to do underlining here – it is a book) points out reasons that sports are a preferred hook over other intensive activities such as music. The book is well worth reading, although somewhat repetitive. Demonstration of leadership and commitment isn’t really what this sports preference is all about. I am afraid to try to sum up his points because I would not do justice to his research. I’ll just mention the 'hale and hearty" aspect of sports and the tendency of sporty folks to succeed in the outside business and political worlds (not because of leadership abilities per se).

My family is not sporty, although my daughter plays JV soccer. She hopes to make the varsity team next year. She’s a talented musician and a so-so athlete. Given the preference for athletics, I always am tempted to push the athletics – yet her talents lie in music. My heart says to encourage my children to pursue what intrigues them, gives them pleasure and satisfaction and let the chips fall where they may. College is just a means to an end, which is a fulfilling life.

epiphany · May 7, 2006, 10:55am

Motherdear is correct, but again, God forbid that anyone else understand that there many physical activities that are performance in nature & aesthetically pleasing and that are ALSO intensely athletic. Some of these activities demand TEAM performance. Some of them require 15-20 hrs/week in practice & performance (or competition). (That comment was for polo) Some of these SAME people are also leading their pre-professional orchestras & taking 4-5 APs in any particular semester & managing 4.0’s in very demanding schools. They do so not to pad a resume or impress themselves & others, but because they have a variety of passions – not just one. In fact many of these people are actually doing more than many varsity sports players are doing.

Anyway, all of you can speculate all you please about what you’re sure or what you believe colleges look for – which e.c.'s are or are not valued at all colleges or particular colleges. Totally not a single one of my D’s peers who got accepted into HYPSM was a V or JV sports player. And in general, all of their acceptances shatter most of the statements & assumptions on this thread. And this year’s similar acceptances among seniors we know further verifies this.

polo1A · May 7, 2006, 11:18am

And epiphany, if that is the case and they are doing an activity because they LOVE it and they are devoting so much of their time, then I do agree with you that that activity can be as advantageous as playing a sport, or even more so if their passion for it shines through in their essays.

What I do take offense to in your posts is your assumption that varsity athletes don’t do things outside their sports. I personally have volunteered at an animal shelter for 3 years, have been an AVID tutor at my school, have handled a demanding courseload at my school, and have also dealt with some family issues as well. I would guarantee you that there are MANY varsity athletes who are involved in many activities outside your sport. My intent is not to get into an argument with you, but show you the side of the varsity athlete. To hear the stereotype of the typical “jock” being discussed is annoying to me, as I know many kids at my school who play a variety of sports and are genuinely kind people who don’t fit this “mold” of the typical athlete.

soozievt · May 7, 2006, 11:54am

“It’s more important how you do it than what you do.” I agree with this. I don’t think it matters as much what the activity or passion is but how one does it…the commitment level over time, the signiicance of the contributions and the level of achievement attained. It surely need not be a sport.

Polo1A…my D was a three varsity sport athlete (with achievements on the state level) but sports were not nearly all she was involved in either. She played two instruments (to All State level), band, jazz band, jazz/tap/hip hop dance (including a select troupe), a job, a teaching assistant at the elementary school, significant role in student government intiatives, and theater. She was not just an athlete (plus was a very good student…valedictorian).

I agree with the notion that it can be positive to do something with your area of passion beyond taking lessons or being in groups yourself. For instance, my soccer playing D also coached a fifth/sixth grade girls team (this was a focus of an essay) and also taught a tap dance class at her studio to middle school aged girls as two things that come to mind. Another D who did theater wasn’t just in shows and taking lessons but initiated and created productions for her fellow students to do. She initiated and created a performing arts event to raise awareness about political activism and peace. She performed at a nursery home too. Gave voice lessons to kids. These are not extraordinary at all but just commenting that besides a passion in your activity, sometimes using that passion toward something else adds something.

Regarding dance or ballet…I have not seen it quite like you, TheDad. I know at one time you thought it would stand out when your D applied and now think it didn’t make a bit of difference. First, I never would say ballet would stand out…a LOT of people do it and do it well. However, I don’t think an EC HAS to be UNIQUE. I think a passion is a passion and achievement and dedication still are positives on an application. It does’t matter if others ALSO do this activity. None of my kids’ activities were unique. TONS of kids do what mine do…sports, music, theater. So, I still think the fact that your D was very dedicated to dance, heavily commited time wise and for years, and so forth, did look positive. It wasn’t unique but it still had worth as a very good EC. For most colleges, this would indeed be a very good EC. It is not a “hook”…it is not unique…but it is a significant EC and the kind they like to see.

However, I agree with Northstarmom and Jyber, that at the MOST elite schools…HYP, for example, there will be many who have this very significant EC activity. So, while it is attractive and worthy and weighty…it often takes something even more…either a hook or a more extraordinary achievement…beyond the local dance studio. There are too many excellent dancers from all areas of the country who apply. Someone who achieved beyond locally would stand out more. However, for most any other college, this EC (without a higher level of recognition) would still look attractive. I still think your D’s EC was VERY strong for most schools, even if not unique. After all, she did get into several selective colleges. My D did, as well, and her ECs are not highly unusual either but like your D, showed passion and achievement and dedication.

Taxguy…I think the example of your D with regard to art and her portfolio is a different situation as I mentioned earlier because she was applying to art degree programs requiring very significant participation in her area of interest and a portofolio for admission. This is simllar to my D who applied to BFA programs in Musical theater or to a kid applying to a BFA in dance program. Those students must have EC activities and achievements and auditions/portfolios for admissions to these specialized degree programs. I think everyone else is talking about admissions to BA colleges and how the EC package figures into that situation. A student like yours in art, or like my D in performing arts, had they simply applied to liberal arts colleges, would have strong ECs in an area of passion, yes. But for the specialized degree programs they applied for…they HAD to have this package for any chance of admissions.

Susan

epiphany · May 7, 2006, 12:33pm

polo, I did not mean that athletes do nothing else; I’m sure some do; I’m sure in fact many & possibly most do. What I objected to in your first post, & in some of the posts by parents that followed, is the implication that the very qualities that some of you believe (or have been told) that colleges look for in varsity athletes are not ALSO equally apparent in students who participate in different activities than varsity sports. And I’m not talking here just about passions. I’m talking about the characteristics of varsity athletes that you at least seem to suggest are unique to traditional athletics. I am telling you, & I am telling parents here, that those characteristics are not monopolized by athletes. Luckily, admissions committees of top tier universities can see this, & have admitted many students over the years, including this yr. & last year who have never suited up for a high school or a related (“club”) sport.

But anyway, you all can continue to speculate away.

epiphany · May 7, 2006, 1:01pm

(i.e., leadership, drive, discipline, teamwork, people skills, sacrifice, etc.)

taxguy · May 7, 2006, 1:14pm

Soozievt notes,“…I think the example of your D with regard to art and her portfolio is a different situation as I mentioned earlier because she was applying to art degree programs requiring very significant participation in her area of interest and a portofolio for admission. This is simllar to my D who applied to BFA programs in Musical theater or to a kid applying to a BFA in dance program. Those students must have EC activities and achievements and auditions/portfolios for admissions to these specialized degree programs. I think everyone else is talking about admissions to BA colleges and how the EC package figures into that situation”

Response: I was just using my daughter as an example. Liberal arts kids wouldn’t have the same art or music ECs as my daughter. However, they will need to have the same degree of demonstrated passion about something, especially if it is related to what they want to major in.

mythreedd · May 7, 2006, 1:20pm

The two things that seem to be missing from the posts above (and forgive me if they were and I missed them) but colleges are looking for passion and commitment with the EC’s. Was a student filling up a resume’ or commited to doing somehting for 4 years? When they were in their 3rd and 4th year did they take leadership roles?

Also remember, each college is building a class. Would a school want a class that was all ASB presidents or all varsity soccer players or all first chair violin players? No.

One other thing to consider is many schools are starting to require that you just don’t make a list of your EC’s, but rather you choose 5, for example, and write a paragraph about each. I think for the kid who has just dabbled with an EC versus the kid who is incredibily passionate about one, really stands out.

What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

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