What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

Parents Forum
621

<p>As for those that spend too much time in their field, what the heck does that mean? that teachers should teach for a few years and move on?</p>

<p>so just have young people teach, not those wonderful “older” teachers who mentor other teachers, bring wisdom?</p>

<p>Teacher turnover is bad enough because of lack of support, and then we have people who put them all down for being HS Teacher Types, as if they are somehow less worthy, passionate, driven as a group then those lauded Profs, many of whom prefer research to actual teaching</p>

622

<p>I didn’t make myself clear. I didn’t mean to say that those things (bringing treats to faculty, complimenting them frequently, etc.) are bad things to do, or that the kids are bad for doing them. I was relating it back to college applications/evaluations and saying that some (not all) teachers respond to schmoozing and that will be reflected in an evaluation. Which IMO should be an unbiased assessment of the individual as a student and not based on favoritism. Example, a kid who contributes in class discussions, writes brilliant papers, but does not schmooz the teacher should still get a great eval on those points. A kid who is an average contributor and writer should not get better evals because he is a complimentor or giver of candy and other gifts.</p>

<p>Being a nice kid does not necessarily equate to being a brilliant student or great candidate to university.</p>

623

<p>^^^ Perhaps your community is different from mine. In my community the teachers are well educated, well paid, and enjoy wonderful benefits. There is a large community of volunteers dedicated to making the school better. BTW, I am one of the most appreciative and appreciated within the cadre of volunteers. </p>

<p>However, perhaps because I am one of the “trusted inner circle” I have been privy to the teachers internal conversations. As a group, they do value organization, authority, etc. And, they do resent anyone with a different view than theirs.</p>

624

<p>

I think it’s usually dangerous to preface any remark with, “Generally speaking…” In my son’s case, he most certainly did not fall into the “perky” category in any way, shape or form. He was really quite introverted, and almost every parent/teacher conference began with the remark, “He’s very quiet!” </p>

<p>Yet, through an accident of fate, I was able to see one of the letters written on his behalf by a teacher after he was in college. It was the most insightful, perceptive evaluation I’ve ever seen, and it was NOT written by a humanities teacher. It was, however, written by a teacher who had taken the time and effort to really get to know my son, in both academic and extracurricular settings.</p>

<p>There are truly outstanding teachers at my sons’ high school, and I would venture to say at many, many suburban or private high schools. The teachers seem to match, or exceed, the demographics of the populations they teach. We are within a stone’s throw of half a dozen elite prep/boarding schools. I’m sure those teachers could have pursued any number of career options, but chose teaching.</p>

<p>By the way, I think there are WAY more than two posters who jump into discussions on a variety of topics. “Generally speaking” I find that Epiphany brings valuable real-world insight into many discussions.</p>

625

<p>^^ Exactly, and while we are on the topic - if teachers want to be considered professionals, perhaps they should ask - how many other professionals are rewarded with these “gifts” treats" and letters of “appreciation” for doing their job? </p>

<p>My son has always spent a great deal of time searching for the “right” gift at holiday time for his teachers - he generally knows their preferences, hobbies, likes and dislikes and choses wonderful gifts that are much appreciated. Yet, I think much of this “behavior” is a holdover from the time when teachers were underpaid. I think few parents realize the current salary scale of experienced teachers within their system. The teacher’s union is a powerful lobby!!</p>

626

<p>Generally speaking I think reflectivemom is right, but that doesn’t mean there are plenty of teachers out there who also appreciate the quiet kids. My son chose teachers he thought would give him good recommendations. So he didn’t go to his US History teacher even though he’d gotten high marks because he never said a word in class if he could help it. Math and science (and Latin!) teachers tend to have different expectations about class participation.</p>

627

<p>Thank you mathmom!</p>

628

<p>I know this thread has gone from a discussion of the best ECs to the importance of great recommendations, but I think it is useful to remember that context is a very important factor for both. </p>

<p>At my son’s Blue-ribbon public HS, the counselors serve and 800:1 ratio. They flat out announce that they will not be writing personal recommendations, nor even checking off the boxes on the general forms, with the exception of Stanford and I think a few others such as Pomona who insist on a GC rec. They tell all the students to select an additional teacher rec to use in place of the GC and to note the policy on their application, so students seek three teacher recommendations. For the individuals applying to Stanford and the like, the GCs uses the three teacher recs to cobble together their own rec.</p>

<p>This is not a bashing of our HS, its just to provide context. My son’s GC happened to be a retiring former coach, yes I’m implying an unfair stereotype, who was well intentioned and really tried to help my son, though he was not particularly well-versed in ‘elite’ admissions despite a large student body applying to the top tiers.</p>

<p>At the end of the year, the GC gave my son his working college application counseling folder. It was not his official cumulative folder, and it did not include the teacher recommendations, but it did include his own recommendation. After reading it, I can tell you by all the standards of CC, it could not have been helpful. Beyond the numerous spelling and grammatical errors, it was overly general and revealed very little about my son.</p>

<p>So I question the value of a single recommendation to make or break an application. I believe that the GC rec, warts an all, probably provided important context. And believe me, we were very grateful for the GC’s efforts. I also question how much a student really needs to micro-manage the parts he cannot control. It adds so much unnecessary stress. </p>

<p>You just have to “work with what you’ve got.” My son asked all his teacher recommenders whether they were willing to write a strong rec. He chose teachers that had him for two years and really knew him. He also provided all of them with his activity list, a cover letter explaining his rational for his college list, a little pertinent family background, and his own personal observations about how he impacted the classroom. Then he left it to them.</p>

<p>He never saw any of his teacher recommendations, but at several accepted students days he was told that his teachers had the nicest things to say about him. My impression was that the teachers recs were a supporting piece, not a make-or-break piece. My son also provided his GC with the same supporting information as the teachers. So who knows how much it helped, but I will say my son felt that he did the best he could given the circumstances and focused his apps to complete his story. That’s the part he could control.</p>

629

<p>I’d like to make another observation. I’ve been reading and learning on these boards for close to two and half years. There is no doubt that my son’s success would not have been possible if we had not learned a number of lessons from the generous CC posters. Still, I think it is so difficult to pinpoint how much each part of the application factors in admissions.</p>

<p>One of my favorite threads is the “My Dinner with an Admissions Officer,” with the adcom saying, “The so-called REAL review is focused on the full picture of the applicant that emerges from the essay, the EC’s, and the recs. Applicants who come ALIVE in a multi-dimensional sense (that is, that the prospective college can truly figure out who this person is) have a distinct advantage.” Here: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=118616&highlight=College+Confidential[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=118616&highlight=College+Confidential&lt;/a&gt;) </p>

<p>I shared this with another poster, but I suppose an apt analogy is the Pine Wood Derby. Everyone swears there is a secret to winning. It’s polishing the wheels, or lubing the axles, or the wedge, or the weight, or the balance, or the physics of friction…but the truth is that it is all of those things. And the scout that does an incrementally better job on all of those parts will have a better result. There is no denying that. And you also learn that you can’t do anything about a lane assignment or how well the other boys build their cars and whether or not they cheated by illegally modifying the wheels or allowing Dad to do the work. You can only do the best possible job on the things you can control. And perhaps your scout figures out that at this time he will never win because he just does not have time nor the inclination to do a better job on all those parts. So he looks around and thinks that maybe he can win the best design or the most original or whatever. That may be exactly where your scout is at. He might not be able to win the objective race, but he has every opportunity to win in the most original or interesting category.</p>

<p>The applicant’s job now, no matter where he is applying or what his stats are, is to present an application that is a focused and a lively read—one filled with his unique voice and personality that makes an adcom sit up and say I understand this kid. An applicant can really do a lot on their own to help connect the dots.</p>

<p>Perhaps that helps. I’m trying to pay it forward in thanks to the generous posters.</p>

630

<p>Been there, done that, love the analogy.</p>

631

<p>Hey guys, I’ve just read through a bunch of your posts (yes, from the beginning, yes, I did skip a lot of pages). I’d like to start out by saying no I am not a parent, I’m a junior in high school. What has appalled me have been a variety of posts by several posters, who have taken various positions on topics ranging from the psychology of the high school athlete to the amount teachers should be recognized. This is supposed to be a parents forum, where when a question is posed the COMMUNITY of college confidential should constructively provide information. I was embarrassed for the posters who got in the equivalent of yelling matches over some of these topics. Many people say college is getting over competitive, but honestly its parents like you who make it a hellish experience for us kids. Before getting into your next tirade, (I cant believe someone stated that they probably have a higher critical reading score, my 16 year old friends wouldn’t even say something like that) consider that these threads are meant to be helpful, and that YOU are not an authority of any sort.</p>

632

<p>“You “pop in” on numerous threads - and it only takes a cursory “search” to find those where you have, contrary to your above words - complained about the low salaries and benefits of teachers.”</p>

<p>generalobserver, this is one example ^^ of how, occasionally a poster or two does feel that he or she needs to justly defend oneself. I’m sorry, but this poster’s generalized opinions of teachers just do not hold up, nor do the statements she just made about me. There are entire threads on which I have debated education in general, specifed the bad aspects & unethical aspect of many teachers, have critized the teaching establishment & had lengthy discussions, most of them not overly emotional or defensive but quite intellectual. In some of these intellectual discussions I have been a major contributor. This particular poster has demonstrated an antipathy toward me that others have also noted & PM’ed me about. In fact what I tend to do less than many posters is merely to “pop in.” However, there are no rules that I’ve read on CC that state that a poster cannot (just like yourself here) make a single comment on one thread. Even on this thread, I have made several. Anyone is free to do a search on “All Open Forums” and see how often I continue a discussion (as opposed to “popping in”). Those CC’ers who know my views well will be able to confirm that in fact I cannot “be counted on” to answer reflexively except where unfounded & inappropriate generalizations are made. I do the same regarding other categories, & I know there are other posters who similarly warn about overgeneralizing about lots of other things.</p>

<p>In fact if this poster had looked with any patience at my many non-reactionary discussions with others about education over the last 3 years on CC, she would know that I am not unionized, I dislike unions, I am not a person interested in receiving gifts from student or parents, & believe my job is to serve them, not vice-versa. She would also know that I save my true wrath for the lack of leadership that is apparent to me in the public education sector. I have in fact very little in common with the caricature of the teacher as this poster seems to perceive the limited intellectual capacity & orientation of what she characterizes as “typical” of teachers. </p>

<p>I am unbelievably underpaid, not just because I do not belong to the union, but because the charter schools with which I associate are bare-bones under-staffed & underfunded. Others would say I’m crazy to do it, but I am passionate about public education.</p>

<p>What I’m saying is that it’s sometimes important to put comments in the context of their history. (You mentioned “skipping a lot of pages.” I also notice that you have posted 8 times.)Occasionally all of us posters do not put our best foot forward when our patience is exasperated & our views, though well publicized, are misrepresented or distorted.</p>

<p>As for the overall competitiveness business, a lot of us parents reserve our intensity for such message boards, & do not necessarily carry it over to our relationships & expectations with our high school-age children (or younger). I am on record in several locations on CC, over a long period of time, of wanting my children to do less, not more, particularly with one of my two children, & I believe that about many other parents who have stated the same, & they have PM’ed me as well about this. Some people are innately more competitive than others, no matter how much a parent, teacher, sibling, or friends may discourage them from that “necessity”. I wish my own daughter would apply to less reachy schools; I have asked her to take fewer AP’s, etc. I actually wanted her to attend a less competitive school, & lobbied for that, which she rejected. There is a general ratcheted-up atmosphere that many students & parents attest to, at their own schools, which seems to take on a life of its own. Some of these students have overly eager parents; others have very mellow, laid-back parents who do not apply pressure. It’s risky merely to blame parents on the competitiveness of current highschool students. The fact that so many opportunities for accomplishment are available & are taken advantage of may feed into this.</p>

633

<p>3ks</p>

<p>That’s what I heard everywhere–let your true self shine through. I encouraged my son to do that–and to pick best-fit colleges–and he was accepted everywhere he applied. Maybe this was a coincidence, but it worked just the way I’d hoped based on everything I’d read.</p>

634

<p>generalobserver, I think it’s great that HS kids like to visit the parent’s forum. But please keep in mind that this is a discussion area intended for parents. If the discussion doesn’t fit your expectations about how parents should behave (and I’d venture to say that parents NEVER meet kids expectations about how they should behave!) then maybe you should avoid this forum. IMO, it’s fine to visit, but it’s not okay to chastise the parents when you do.</p>

635

<p>I greatly enjoy reading these converstations to get different perspectives from people with diverse backgrounds. I appreciate the passion with which some of the posters express their convictions, even when I don’t agree with them. However, I stop enjoying the threads when they degrade into petty bickering and personal attacks. </p>

<p>This posters on this forum provide excellent advice from an adult perspective to both parents and students. I personally wish that the civility of these conversations could more consistently match the quality the information conveyed and opinions expressed.</p>

636

<p>I agree w/D’o’2, but in general I think the civility standards here are pretty good, compared with the rest of cyberspace. Sure, people get into some flame wars, but they generally back off, too. That’s one of the reasons I like this community.</p>

637

<p>The student threads do not seem to debate as much. However, some of the responses people get to well meaning questions can be extremely obnoxious (on the student threads).</p>

638

<p>I second Dad’o’2.
Epiphany, you really don’t have to defend yourself against ill-judged and misinformed attacks, particularly when they do not correspond to the main theme of the thread.</p>

639

<p>Parents,
Please don’t let this thread get offtrack by defending the parents’ boards. If anyone wants to have such discussions, they belong in one of the cafes.</p>

640

<p>epiphany, aren’t you embarrassed yet? If only realized that every post is not about you - and does not require you to leap and take the thread “off-topic” to defend you and the teaching profession.</p>

<p>My original post was “on topic”. I merely mentioned that some “well meaning” letters of recommendations could “harm” a student because they mention “values” that teachers generally encourage - respect for authority, hard work, commitment to detail, task completion, etc.</p>

<p>But, you had to jump in and AGAIN defend yourself and all teachers from “imagined enemies” = “parents who dare to criticize a teacher”. Your posted comments about parents is quite revealing.</p>

<p>YOU are the one who said that your Critical Reading scores were probably higher than mine - as if any “adult” would mention such in a discussion. generalobserver was right to call you on both - taking the thread “off-topic” and “bragging” about you CR scores - which, she said any true “adult” would criticize their kid for doing. The fact that she is not a “parent” does not make her contributions less valid or worthy!</p>

<p>And, then - even though the discussion had move on - you had to bring up past “garbage” when most had moved on. And, AGAIN, play the “poor underpaid card” that I accused you of “playing” before. Everyone makes their own career choices - if you are not well compensated in your present postion, than it must be assumed you derive some other “compensation” which you find equally/more valuable.</p>

<p>And, as far as your PM reference, I too have received many - seems like many on CC have your “number”.</p>