What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

Northstarmom · May 8, 2006, 9:20am

“So let’s quit with the moralizing here: kids who come home from school every day and spend time with their families, read & study & relax don’t turn into drunkards.”

Somehow, no matter what I say, you seem to be taking what I say personally as if I am commenting on your morals or on how you raised your kid. I am not doing that.

A kid who comes home and interacts with others at home is very different than are the people who don’t interact with anyone. Yes, there really are some people like that, and I even had one in my family: A distant cousin who was notable for running her successful business, going to her lonely home and then falling asleep in front of the TV after drinking herself into a stupor.

I also had a friend who married – and then quickly divorced a man – who basically did the same thing. Because she had met him through his work and had a whirlwind courtship, she didn’t realize that he had no life except for going to work, going home and then sitting in front of the TV and drinking.

When it comes to your son, if he had great grades and other stats, of course 95% of the thousands of colleges in this country would have been delighted to have him. It’s probably only about the 25-50 top colleges that truly factor in ECs into the decisions, and that will reject spectacularly high stat students solely because of weak or nonexistant ECs.

There certainly are plenty of places in this world for introverts. That includes many excellent colleges who would accept such a person with absolute delight. It also includes many graduate and professional schools and companies.

Believe it or not, according to each Myers Briggs and similar tests that I have taken, I’m an introvert. In fact, I think my whole nuclear family are introverts. All of us do enjoy having lots of time by ourselves to purse interests like reading. At the same time, though, all of us do some things in groups with people who share our interests and whom we enjoy being around.

We aren’t the type of people who’d want to be the center of attention at a loud party. However, three of the four of us enjoy doing things like teaching and community service, and are willing to take the helm of a club or other group if our leadership would make the organization better.

mathmom · May 8, 2006, 9:24am

“The student is brilliant, however, at writing Wikipedia articles and historical essays. Despite a varied and rigorous curriculum with very high grades and test scores, he was rejected from all the elite schools to which he applied. I would have loved to see a child with that kind of passion for historical research be educated at one of the best colleges.”

This is where I think you have to sell yourself. We don’t know exactly what his applications looked like, but I imagine there would be ways to make this look more or less like community service depending on how you sold it.

Northstarmom · May 8, 2006, 9:33am

“The student is brilliant, however, at writing Wikipedia articles and historical essays. Despite a varied and rigorous curriculum with very high grades and test scores, he was rejected from all the elite schools to which he applied. I would have loved to see a child with that kind of passion for historical research be educated at one of the best colleges.”

If by best colleges, you mean places like HPYS, that student probably would have been miserable. Those kind of colleges do not have professors who are going to go way out of their way to spot the students’ interests, invite the student to office hours and then mentor the student’s interests.

If the student were basically handing in excellent research papers while pursuing his Wikipedia interest in his dorm room, he would not be benefiting from the excellent opportunities that the top universities that I mention offer. Lots of the opportunities involve being in ECs with peers who are similarly passionate about one’s interests. The opportunities also involve assertively taking advantage of office hours, lectures and other things on campus.

The same student, however, could flourish at a LAC or public university known for teaching and nurturing students. Such colleges have profs who’ll go out of their way to personally mentor such students, including doing things like making sure that the students attend (often at university expense) professional conferences.

I know a two-time national history fair winner (an extravert, BTW, who also had been student gov’t president at his high school) who applied only to a second/third tier college known for good teaching as well as having a history prof who was an expert in the field of the student’s interest. The student went to that college, continued to pursue his history interest there, and afterward, went to graduate school at a top 20 university known for excellence in his area of history.

It’s a fallacy to assume that if a student is stellar in a field, he or she would get the best education at a top university. A student who may be totally overlooked as a student at HPYS may be a star and get absolutely wonderful mentoring from renowned experts at less competitive colleges.

Anoel · May 8, 2006, 10:00am

I’m glad to see the introvert support out on this thread. The heavy focus on more extroverted ECs being needed all the time in college admissions is one of the aspects I dislike about the process as I think its just another bias towards extroverts. However it does seem to be less prominent except in the highest tier schools and most below would seem ready to accept a student with high stats and few ECs since they spend a lot of alone time to theirself. Even then, I think one or two ECs that an introvert was passionate and talented at could get them in at a top school. And even then, the whole focus on the top schools is ridiculous as people need to focus more on fit, which thankfully this part of CC does.

I think every person is different, some people are more extroverted and some introverted and some introverts are more introverted than others. People should be free to pursue their own interests even if its not in a group setting. Some people may be fine with only meeting people at work and after that are worn out with the social setting-and still be perfectly happy with their lives. Others may need more than that, from groups to community service to book clubs or whatever. Kids should try to find the right balance between alone time and social settings. As an introvert myself (INFP), high school really wears me out from being around people all day so it lessons my desire to stay afterschool for ECs so I can understand just wanting to go home and read or whatever other solitary activities are out there. Being in a school or work setting may be more than enough to develop social and leadershop type skills for some. Usually an introvert needs a few quality friendships or so but its up to them to figure out how much they need and not society or others to lay it out for them. I don’t think people should be judged by other standards for that, if they are content and happy with their lives, then how they live is fine.

On another note, forums like this and many online activities are havens for introverts (in MBTI terms, lots of IN’s, esp INxPs) so I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lot of introverts here. This forum itself can be considered both social and introverted and can give introverts an outlet of expression that may not be as draining as talking together face to face.

soozievt · May 8, 2006, 10:05am

Atlantamom, No, I don’t think sports have the highest EC value. Elite colleges want all types of students with all sorts of passions and interests that will contribute to their college campuses. They don’t just want athletes. I think a student who has achieved something and made a significant contribution to any area of interest and passion outside the classroom over a considerable amount of time will be an attractive candidate. There are degrees of achievement and what not but the area it is in is not as important. If one is a recruited athlete, it becomes a hook but otherwise I’m talking of sports as an EC like any other significant EC as being on par with other ECs.

soozievt · May 8, 2006, 10:14am

There are many ECs that introverts can do, if they are interested, however. For instance, playing piano need not be a social thing or a leadership thing. Doing visual arts can also be done at home and alone. Being a writer who seeks publishing or writing contests can be done at home. There are many other examples of outside interests that don’t require a group setting or affiliation with school.

Northstarmom · May 8, 2006, 10:21am

"Even then, I think one or two ECs that an introvert was passionate and talented at could get them in at a top school. "

This is very true. Typically, the students whom I see getting into Harvard have 2 strong and very different ECs. At least half of those students also probably are introverts on the Myers Briggs.

They can handle interviews well. They get along well with faculty. They have friends, but probably are more likely to have a few very close friends, not hordes of friends. They have the social skills to take leadership roles in organizations, and they are respected by peers, however they are not life of the party people. They know how to handle social situations, but do like alone time and don’t in general need to spend most of their time surrounded by others.

The ECs that I can recall of students whom I knew who were recently accepted to Harvard included: a student who was an Eagle Scout/state math team champion/computer nerd, longtime piano player, with state championships in programming, extracoursework in programming, and a professional job doing programming; a student who was on the local board of the library and who had created a project for herself of designing a new web page for the library (The student’s ECs on paper were not that remarkable looking, but what was remarkable was that she obviously was interested in what she was doing, and she was self directed to go to the creative, extra mile with the ECs); a student who was a national champion in two different types of academic competitions including one that was a rather obscure interest; the student also was a top officer in school clubs related to those competitions.

The adjetives that come to mind for those students are “intense,” “thoughtful,” “committed,” and “intellectual.” I can think of only one accepted student who stood out for being extremely extraverted and genuinely well rounded. This student was dynamic, articulate and was president of many clubs, including one at the national level. The interview and his accomplishments indicated he was that rare person with a lot of strong interests and the ability to juggle lots of leadership roles while having an impact on his organizations. He literally was the best student whom I ever interviewed.

A couple of years after he got in, I was talking with another local Ivy interviewer about remarkable students, and the other interviewer said that the same person also was the best student whom he ever interviewed. (Interestingly, his Ivy, Brown, didn’t accept that student despite the interviewer’s strong recommendation! That was the student’s only rejection. Shows how quirky admissions can be.)

atlantamom · May 8, 2006, 10:23am

Soozievt,

I don’t mean the highest value in any other way than “probability.” Because there are incomplete or nonexistenct statistics about ECs, I form this opinion from a variety of sources. What I mean is that a kid doesn’t need national recognition in a sport to get into HYP etc, but it seems that that level or nearly that level of recognition is needed for other activities, such as music, dance and so forth. Also, there seem to be more students accepted at HYP etc with athletic ECs, at least one, than students with no athletic ECs. I don’t mean that HYP etc don’t want other ECs – clearly they do.

On another note, the introvert/extrovert question. I can certainly understand why the very top tier schools look for extrovert ECs – probably because this translates into increased likelihood for success in life. How well a person interacts with others is a bigger predictor, imo, than intellectual ability. Yet, I always had what may be a romantic notion that at HYP etc were kids who would become the inventors, authors, philosophers, researchers and so forth who would greatly affect our future world. I wonder how this can be true if the selection criteria are so heavily weighted toward extroverted ECs.

calmom · May 8, 2006, 10:34am

Northstarmom, I agree with your sentiments as expressed in post #121. What I didn’t get, and construed as “moralizing”, was your leap from posts about kids who “devote their free time only to sleeping, partying, playing videos or watching TV” to adults who “do nothing but go to work and go home and literally snooze by the TV or snooze after downing some booze”. I didn’t, and still don’t, see the connection between teenage ennui and adult alcoholism.

I do know that as parents we tend to fret and worry when we see our kids laying around the house doing nothing. So we tend to nag. But I think there is a very normal, biological need for some teenage boys to sleep a lot. I say that because I don’t seem to be the only one who had a teenage sleeper, and it seems to be a phase that they outgrow. So basically, I think that my son lived a life that was very normal and typical for a teenage boy - or at least for the nerdy, self-absorbed, nonathletic types.

I realize that its not what the Ivies want to see. But frankly, when I see the resumes that kids post on this board in the “chances” threads, I am somewhat appalled. Most of these kids are either exaggerating, superhuman, or majorly stressed – its just too much for someone to be doing on top of a heavy academic courseload. And if that is what the elite colleges expect these days… well I really am glad that I took a more laid back approach to parenting and life.

soozievt · May 8, 2006, 10:38am

AtlantaMom…about the sports ECs and the value of them…I realized you were only talking of “probability” with admissions. I did mention that a recruited athlete is different in that it is then a hook of sorts. But to be a recruited athlete, one often needs recognition in their sport beyond locally, by the way.

I was talking of sports as a strong EC on a student’s record when not necessarily a recruited athlete. My own kid was a three varsity sport athlete in HS and was not recruited by colleges (though is playing sports at an Ivy college now). So, I was talking of sports as a strong EC being of no more value than another very strong commited EC with achievements. I don’t think colleges want more who have done sports than something else that is equivalent in terms of dedication/passion/contribution/achievement. They surely want all types of students, as well. I know when I interview candidates, that I surely don’t see the athletes as being more worthy. I DO realize, however, the enormous commitment involved, but I see that in several other EC areas that some kids have achieved in…theater, music, newspaper, etc. Also, I do not believe that to get into HYP, that one must have national recognition. Surely if one has that, it makes for an even stronger case. But there are kids who get in who are accomplished in their passions in their region, who have made significant contributions in some capacity who don’t have any national level recognition. I don’t think that is a prerequisite. It helps, but is not required. High achievement and drive/passion, and a significant contribution to an endeavor of interest over a considerable amount of time/commitment still looks attractive. The high achievement can be in various ways and not necessarily on a national playing field. I know kids, for instance, who are very good at theater and have achieved highly in their local regions or sometimes in their state and have gone onto Harvard and Yale.

Northstarmom · May 8, 2006, 10:41am

On another note, the introvert/extrovert question. I can certainly understand why the very top tier schools look for extrovert ECs – probably because this translates into increased likelihood for success in life…Yet, I always had what may be a romantic notion that at HYP etc were kids who would become the inventors, authors, philosophers, researchers and so forth that would greatly affect our future world. I wonder how this can be true if the selection criteria are so heavily weighted toward extroverted ECs."

I do think that HPYS look for students with documented history of ECs involving other people because an enormous part of what HPYS offers that makes their campuses unusual is a very vibrant student-directed campus intellectual life.

Harvard, for instance, has something like 40+ student run theater productions each year (despite lacking a theater major). It has a daily student newspaper that has its own three-story building and printing press (The press operators are professionals who work for the students. The university has no journalism mjajor). It has probably hundreds of student musical groups and many dance troupes. It has more division 1 sports than any other college, plus it has lots of intramural sports. It has a student run radio station, a student run humor magazine, a weekly student newspaper, literacy magazines, etc.

It needs self directed students to keep all of those organizations alive.

The most common jobs held by graduates in my Harvard class were doctors and lawyers. However, my classmates also include: a former head of state; a former lieutanant governor; an ESPN commentator; a well known liberal political commedian and author; one of the country’s top philosophers (an Ivy prof); several fiction and nonfiction authors; the owner of a major media corporation; a famous conservative writer and columnist; a journalist whose Mexican nonprofit is supposed to be profiled on NPR shortly; an opera singer; a foundation president; a judge in a major city; an archeologist who has made some major finds; a couple of independent film directors.

There also are people in more ordinary fields ranging from psychologists to a kindergarten teacher, a guidance counselor and even a person who works for the Salvation Army.

I don’t think that Harvard is known for inventors. Perhaps they tend to be more introverted people who are apt to go to campuses designed to nurture the solitary intellectuals.

While I’m describing what I know of Harvard, my guess is that lots of this also would hold for Princeton and Yale.

Northstarmom · May 8, 2006, 10:46am

"But frankly, when I see the resumes that kids post on this board in the “chances” threads, I am somewhat appalled. Most of these kids are either exaggerating, superhuman, or majorly stressed – its just too much for someone to be doing on top of a heavy academic courseload. "

Many of the people who post in the chances threads are students who are doing activities solely to impress top colleges, and who also are lying and exaggerating. Just check and see where those students with the laundry lists get accepted.

Often you’ll see students with laundry lists complaining in April that “less qualified” students got accepted. From what i’ve seen, that’s because the “less qualified” students actually were quietly really doing things that they were genuinely interested in. They weren’t running around bragging or comparing their activity lists to others. They weren’t on CC asking strangers to tell them what ECs to do to look good.

Many of their peers probably had no idea what those students were doing. Their activities may have been done outside of school and they may have had strong impacts that were reflected in essays or recommendations, things that their peers had no knowledge of.

curmudgeon · May 8, 2006, 10:57am

I think I need to jump in so that the kid out there without national or state celebrity or without being “well lopsided” knows they can still get into top colleges and universities. It does happen.

I have two observations to make:

1) IMO the most selective schools (and the top scholarships at the next tier) seem to be looking for kids who have done something, not for kids who have been preparing to do something. I am sure they are looking for others, too but I have noticed that the kid who serves on the schoolboard and even the kid who designs a quick response translation card for hospital volunteers seem to get great results. They seem to like kids who are unwilling to wait to contribute. See a problem, design a solution, work to implement that solution. It does not need to be a big thing. It does not have to be 1000 hours. It does have to be something that you did, not helped do.

[Warning : Personal Experience to Follow- Stop Reading Now- D did not spend a lot of time talking about the number of hours spent on an activity, or miles traveled , or sacrifices made. Most of her ink was spent on things she did, not things she was preparing to do. I agree with everybody that practice and lessons (sports or viola) show commitment and endurance and passion, but doing something with that passion might show more.]

2) The topmost schools and the big scholarships at the next tier seem to want kids who are going to take full advantage of as many parts of the college experience as possible. In a sense , they want kids who are going to wring all they can out of their four years on campus.

Warning: Personal Anecdote to Follow - Stop Reading Now.

At a scholarship weekend my D attended , there was a Q and A session where she was quizzed on many things by a panel of eight “judges”. Her application and essays were fair game , as well as her views on civil rights, her plans to participate in campus activities , and whether her belly button was an out-ee or in-ee (jk).

After the session a prof commented to her about her word choice . She looked puzzled. He said “In all my years of doing this I have never had a student use the word ‘greedy’ and give it such a positive meaning. You said it in your essay and you said it again today. I was listening for it. It was a joy to hear you talk about specific opportunities we offer to a student, your desire to try (almost) all of them, and the difficulty you will wrestle with choosing between them. You had obviously done your homework about us. I want you to stay ‘greedy’ about the those opportunities and I look forward to getting to know you better.”

Intro extra whatever, if the school thinks that all you are going to do is be alone in your room with your books and your games and your computer, (or I assume someone who would only be interested in the social/greek life and not the rest) they may look elsewhere for someone who will use more of the facilities and modalities and institutions in place on campus. Should they? Y’all can argue that till the cows come home, but for right now, that seems to be the way it is.

As always it’s just my opininon, I’m just shooting from the hip (no data to back me up), but I bet I’m right. ;)

atlantamom · May 8, 2006, 10:57am

Soozievt,

Absolutely. I know of several kids this year accepted to some Ivies (not HY) without athletics or national recognition. I actually know of only one kid accepted to Harvard or Yale and that person had another hook. Several kids with everything going for them, state level recognition etc and even two with national recognition, one in music and one in science, weren’t accepted to Harvard or Yale. Neither had any athletics. Just very limited anecdotal info, though. Seems whatever statistics there are support that more kids with athletic ECs are accepted into HYP etc. But, I don’t know.

In the end, your children are who they are and which ECs might increase their probability of acceptance is not particularly useful. I mean, what good parent would push their kid into doing one thing and not another just because they thought one of them would increase their chance of getting into HYP? Anyway, I wouldn’t.

Other aspects of this thread are interesting and useful. Such as how to demonstrate an EC. Useful information for most kids.

TheGFG · May 8, 2006, 11:00am

Is there a single elite school that doesn’t care if the student is a good leader or not? Along with the bias toward extroversion, there is a very strong bias toward “leaders”. Do leaders make the most money and give the biggest endowments, or is it that leaders are visible and thus promote their alma mater, or is there some other reason that leadership has been deemed the single most valuable personal asset for elite schools? Regrettably, like athletic ability, some are born with charisma and some aren’t. You can learn and practice to improve at a sport and you can also learn some leadership skills, but you may never excel at either. The mold of “leader” is a real burden on some kids who may want to work hard in support of an organization w/o being the one making the decisions or formulating the plans. Now if by leadership we are really talking about taking initiative, I have less problem with seeking that quality in a college applicant since it is tied in with work ethic and motivation. Furthermore, many bright kids with leadership potential disdain student govt. and a lot of student clubs as silly and useless because they are. Also, in many public high schools, “leadership” is mostly popularity or the ability to be cool and funny which does have merits but isn’t exactly the same thing.

oceanview · May 8, 2006, 11:14am

I agree. Like those fine young lacrosse players at Duke. Or those fine football players at UC Boulder.

Northstarmom · May 8, 2006, 11:17am

"Is there a single elite school that doesn’t care if the student is a good leader or not? Along with the bias toward extroversion, there is a very strong bias toward “leaders”.'

People who are leaders are likely to initiate campus activities and to be active members of them on campus. For colleges like many of the top ones for which a vibrant student-run campus intellectual and arts life is important, it’s important that the college attract students with the assertiveness to maintain and create those organizations and help them flourish.

Many leaders are not that charismatic. They do, however, need to have some level of assertiveness. There are many aspects of leadership, possibly the most important of which (according to the late leadership expert Dr. Donald Clifton) is ethics. Vision, interpersonal skills, risk taking are among other skills that leaders have. One doesn’t need to be highly gregarious to be a good leader.

The top universities also want people who will serve society in leadership roles- - whether that means taking on the leadership for addressing some local concerns in one’s small town, being president of the PTA or being a head of state. They also want people who’ll take the leadership in alumni affairs both in terms of fund raising as well as maintaining and creating alumni clubs, scholarship programs, and various services to students and alum.

As an example, Harvard classes have reunions every 5 years. These reunions are planned by the alum. They include concerts (done by alum), panel discussions (featuring alum), and have included even documentary films that alum volunteers made of the event and statistical surveys that were created and done by alums. All did these things purely for the fun of it. Harvard’s alum office served as support staff,but did not initiate the projects. There also are parties, but those aren’t the main focus of reunions.

At most colleges, probably alum would cringe if it were suggested that they sit on panels, do surveys, produce concerts as part of their celebrations. They go to the celebrations to party and otherwise have traditional good times. They might be willing to plan a party, but they wouldn’t want to be spending hundreds of their hours preparing to present an academic panel or doing research for a documentary that they’d sell to classmates at cost.

Anyway, what many students and alum at places like HPYS think is fun are things that most people, including most smart people, would cringe at the thought of doing for “fun.” However, HPYS are places for those rare people whose passions are doing things that others would consider hard work. For that reason, the colleges go out of their way to recruit those kind of students. There are plenty of places for students who don’t have those kind of interests.

atlantamom · May 8, 2006, 11:17am

Curmudgeon,

Looks like anecdotes make up most of the data we can find. I use them too. I just wish there was more comprehensive data and was asking earlier if anyone knew of such data. I didn’t mean to insult all of us (myself included) that turn to anecdotes. I apologize if I came across that way.

I am a big believer in accepting reality. I think that those kids who have ECs that are more social are in better shape for admissions. I am not belittling those. I don’t have a personal axe to grind. I have one kid who applied ED to Swarthmore (not HYP etc) and a daughter who won’t apply to any Ivy. I am interested in this question because of my general interest in education, and social issues, broadly. For the past few years I have paid attention to this matter and come to some of my own conclusions. I do wonder about why those colleges with the reputations as the most elite generally fail to recognize the late bloomer, the introverted thinker, the lopsided wonder (none of these descriptions fit my own kids, btw). Given that SAT scores (total), GPA/class rank (which requires that the kid has been hauling in top grades since age 13 or 14) and demonstrated ECs seem to be necessary, how can these elite schools even perceive the buried treasures? Not that I think most of the students at these elite schools will not go on to accomplish many wonderful things and are not bright, talented people. They will. (For purposes of full disclosure, my husband is a Yalie).

Northstarmom · May 8, 2006, 11:23am

."I do wonder about why those colleges with the reputations as the most elite generally fail to recognize the late bloomer, the introverted thinker, the lopsided wonder (none of these descriptions fit my own kids, btw). "

They don’t need to recognize the late bloomer because they already have an overabundance of consistent high achievers whom they’ll have to reject for space reasons. They can accept the late bloomer for grad school.

The spectacularly lopsided wonder can get into top colleges if their strength truly is spectacular and if their weakness is strong enough to give them the skills to be able to graduate (since more than likely they’ll have to take some classes that are not in their area of strengths).

As for the introverted thinker, if that person is an amazing genius who has done impressive things (an example would be someone who has already published impressive research papers in top professional journals), they would have a shot. However, most introverted thinkers have not made that high a level of achievement by the time they are high school seniors.

They also probably would be far happier and flourish better at a place like Swarthmore, Grinnell or one of the other LACs that are wonderful training grounds for the introverted intellectuals who are likely to get doctorates and become academics. The LACs are notable for producing academics. That’s not what places like HPYS are noted for or want to be mainly noted for. They want to be notable as places that are producing leaders in variou aspects of society.

atlantamom · May 8, 2006, 11:34am

Northstarmom,

You probably are right about HYP.

BTW, Swarthmore is quite interested in producing leaders and has produced them. Swarthmore admittees are very similar to the admittees of HYP. Demonstrated ECs are very important to Swarthmore. I won’t get into Swarthmore because it is not the subject of this thread. I just wanted to set the record straight on that one. I don’t think the late bloomer, the introverted thinker or the lopsided talent has much luck there either. Athletics are not as important there as an EC, though, as at HYP etc.

As far as other LAC’s, like Swarthmore, Pomona, Amherst and Williams admissions criteria are very similar to HYP.

What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

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