<p>Does anyone have any suggestions for how to guide a jack-of-all-trades / dabbler type of kid? My 8th grade daughter has shown potential in a variety of different activities, especially those related to music (singing, musical theater, piano, trumpet) and sports (soccer, basketball, X-C and track). Unfortunately, some of these pursuits conflict with each other (like soccer and X-C are the same season in school), and unless a student is exceptionally bright and talented it’s pretty difficult to achieve excellence/show passion in that many areas while taking honors classes. For example, in order to maintain a college prep. schedule in HS she’ll have to choose between band or chorus, since both are classes. Up until now, she has firmly resisted specializing, though we have forced her to pare down gradually in preparation for HS. But it’s like that arcade game with the alligators that pop out and you have to smash them down with the club. We agree to cut something, she’s unhappy about doing so but agrees she must give it up, but then she’s miserable, misses the activity and wants to return to it. Since she can’t do everything, she’ll reluctantly cut a different hobby to make time. Then that one hibernates for a while until some later time when it resurfaces. We feel she needs to focus and commit, and have suggested the activities in which we believe she has the most promise. But of course, those are not the ones she enjoy the most, and besides she LOVES everything. AHHH!</p>
<p>Excellent thread TaxGuy. Here’s my 2 cents worth:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I agree with TaxGuy regarding what the top tier colleges want in ECs, even if it is the opposite of what they say they want. I also think he’s right that lower tier schools prefer high grades to honors courses. This is strictly anecdotal evidence but we knew 2 young men that got B’s in honors courses who were denied admission at mid-level colleges, while classmates who took regular classes and made A’s were admitted to those colleges. I hope this was an anomoly and that mid-level colleges look favorably on students who take challenging courses.</p></li>
<li><p>We don’t know how and why colleges make decisions because it’s all so secret. And AtlantaMom - this is the reason there aren’t statistics to help us make decisions, so people have to resort to internet forums like this for information. Thus, these forums do brisk business, and parents and students read them to glean every possible nugget of information. I guess it’s good for College Confidential but, as a result, college admissions are more like playing roulette than the first step into the adult world it should be.</p></li>
<li><p>I think there is a common theme in the comments posted on this thread: We all know the special qualities our kids have and we are looking for ways to make those qualities known during the college admissions process. We also resent when others don’t seem to appreciate our children’s special qualities, ECs, etc. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Instead of blaming each other, I think the real blame lies with the secrecy of the college admissions process, but I also think it doesn’t do any good to get mad. When I applied to college in the early 1970’s, it was a simple and much less competitive process because there weren’t as many people attending college. There are more colleges now and far more applicants but there aren’t more top-tier colleges than when I applied almost 40 years ago. That tells me the competition is fierce, and of course I knew that already from personal experience with my children. So now it’s not enough to be smart, or hard-working, or passionate. Kids today must be all that and more. Nevertheless, that’s a fact of life where the “product” (college) is based on supply and demand. We can be resentful but it’s like spitting in the wind. It hurts us more than it hurts anyone else, and it doesn’t do much good in the long run.</p>
<ol>
<li> I identified with CalMom’s comments about her son, his interests, and his accomplishments. It bothers me to read comments like those by NorthstarMom, even though I know she is well-meaning and wants to help. NorthstarMom, your ideas were excellent and I commend you for such creative thinking. But why should kids have to compete and show excellence in every facet of their lives? I understand it will help them get into the best colleges, and for that reason alone it is worth it to some kids, but at what cost?<br></li>
</ol>
<p>To tell an introvert that he has to get out more may seem like good advice - especially to an extrovert - but how would that same extrovert feel if we told him/her to stay in and think more? We only talk about this because society and especially schools place a higher value on those who “give back” to their community. People who actively participate in their community are wonderful but they are not the only important people in our society. People who think and mature in more private ways are valuable, too. I worry that we are missing out on a whole generation of young Einsteins because we’ve told kids that it’s more important to have ECs than it is to read and think.</p>
<p>'I identified with CalMom’s comments about her son, his interests, and his accomplishments. It bothers me to read comments like those by NorthstarMom, even though I know she is well-meaning and wants to help. NorthstarMom, your ideas were excellent and I commend you for such creative thinking. But why should kids have to compete and show excellence in every facet of their lives? I understand it will help them get into the best colleges, and for that reason alone it is worth it to some kids, but at what cost? '</p>
<p>I keep saying that getting kids involved in at least one activity outside of studying is most important NOT to get the kid into an excellent college, but to give the kid the confidence, skills and self knowledge to lead a happy, fulfilling life in which they also can be of service to others.</p>
<p>The person who only knows how to study and play video games, watch TV, party or read books by themselves is missing out on some important aspects of being a human. </p>
<p>Activities such as school clubs, employment, church activities, being in a sports tea or participating in something as low key as a book club or even a rock band give students ways of interacting with others and learning about and developing their own interest, talents, and leadership skills (something virtually everyone needs even if it’s just to get promotions on the job or make an impact through being involved in their kids’ PTA).</p>
<p>IMO each teen needs at least one activity in which they have some productive, structured activity with others and that is done in addition to attending high school. Whether that’s participating in an ultimate frisbee club that they do each week or whether it’s a small book discussion club, a job at a fast food outlet or whether that’s being in the church choir or the school’s student government association or math club isn’t what matters. </p>
<p>Certainly students who aspire to the very top colleges need usually two strong ECs. However, IMO instead of parents trying to get young children on track with ECs that will impress top colleges, it would be better if all parents viewed it as part of their parental responsibilities to help their kids connect with some activities that involve others and will help their kids develop some hobbies and social skills as well as an awareness of their own talents, strengths and interests.</p>
<p>If a kid is passionate about an activity, it’s wonderful if a parent gives a kid some additonal suggestions about how to run with their talents/interests – whether or not that kid plans to apply to a top college.</p>
<p>NorthstarMom: “I keep saying that getting kids involved in at least one activity outside of studying is most important NOT to get the kid into an excellent college, but to give the kid the confidence, skills and self knowledge to lead a happy, fulfilling life in which they also can be of service to others.”</p>
<p>I know you keep saying this but I think you are wrong. Life is not one size fits all. I agree with you and others that, to get into a top-tier college, it is good to have the kinds of ECs you suggest. I disagree that your version of what makes a valuable person is the way everyone should be.</p>
<p>“I know you keep saying this but I think you are wrong. Life is not one size fits all. I agree with you that to get into a top-tier college it is good to have the kinds of ECs you suggest. I disagree that your version of what makes a valuable person is the way everyone should be.”</p>
<p>What do you think that students need to get into a top tier college? What’s your evidence of your opinion.</p>
<p>I’ve made posts based on my experiences as a Harvard alum interviewer and I’ve posted info that comes directly from ad officers at top colleges. Please provide info to back up your opinions.</p>
<p>What’s your idea about how people should be? Clearly, you disagree with my idea that it’s problematic when people only go to work and come home and sit staring at the TV, playing videos by themselves or drink themselves into stupors. Do you believe that parents should try to expose their kids to different situations so their lives encompass more than what I mentioned or do you think that what I described would be the kind of existance that you’d welcome for yourself or for your offspring?</p>
<p>My question has nothing to do with bragging rights or getting into competitive schools. It has to do with your thoughts about whether a good life encompasses more than just working, eating, sleeping (and watching TV or drinking).</p>
<p>NorthstarMom,</p>
<p>As I stated earlier and you even repeated my quote in your post: “I agree with you that to get into a top-tier college it is good to have the kinds of ECs you suggest.” I am at a loss as to how you could turn that around and insinuate that I disagree with your opinion when I expressly agreed with you on that.</p>
<p>Where did you ever get the idea that people who read, think, work, and go home are so worthless? Much less drinking themselves into a stupor?</p>
<p>
Put it on your college application wherever you want. </p>
<p>I just meant literally you might want more space to explain things than is on the form, depending on what application you use. When you get to filling out college apps, you will find that some have forms that are annoying in the way they are set up, and especially if you fill them out online simply don’t have room for you to put in the info that you want. Maybe you will feel comfortable simply writing “cooking” and checking off the little boxes as to which years of high school you cooked and how many hours a week you spent cooking. Or maybe you will feel that it makes more sense to leave it off the list, but write a short answer essay to one of the questions on a college’s supplemental application form. Some colleges have specific questions that ask what you like to do in your spare time or something similar.</p>
<p>Don’t worry about what you <em>should</em> do. Make the application your own. The point is that the information comes through, not that it is listed in a specific place.</p>
<p>
My opinion only: I think you should back off and let your daughter determine her own priorities. Set limits if you want: I used to insist that my daughter leave at least one evening a week open for unstructured time with family or friends – but don’t try to guide or dictate the activities. I think that the passions or the activities that involve intense commitment often stem from serindipidous circumstances. If you insist that a kid focus all attention on whatever existing activities seem the most important, you close the door on the possibility of finding a new passion. </p>
<p>You are lucky: you have an active and engaged kid. I just think that you need to give kids the room to figure out these things on their own.</p>
<p>
That may be the case for the very elite admissions: the Ivies and a handful of other elites – but I honestly don’t think it is unpredictable or mysterious for the vast majority of colleges. A kid who focuses on fit is probably going to end up choosing a college where the EC’s are very compatible with what the school wants – it is no accident that my dancer daughter chose Barnard and that Barnard chose her. That doesn’t mean that there are guarantees – I knew she couldn’t count on admission to a school that rejects 3 out of 4 applicants – but it wasn’t hard to figure out what the college was looking for. </p>
<p>So I guess it kind of depends what we mean by “Top Schools” in this thread. If we are only talking about Ivies… then I suppose you can look at the whole process as unpredictable. But I think that there are no more than 20 or 30 colleges overall that really are at that level of competition. There are about 10 national universities that accept less than 20% of applicants, and perhaps 5 LACs that are that selective. Beyond that, you are dealing with a more rational world: not that everyone will get in, but in the realm where musicians don’t need national recognition, athletes don’t need all-star status, and science students don’t need to be Intel finalists. </p>
<p>And from that point its just a matter of research. The more the college seems like a fit because it offers ECs or academics that appeal to your kid, the more likely that they want kids who will fill those ECs or those majors. </p>
<p>Again, no guarantee – obviously you never know what the competition is like. But its unlikely at that level that kids are getting rejected because their EC’s aren’t good enough.</p>
<p>Originally Posted by DRJ4
“as a result, college admissions are more like playing roulette than the first step into the adult world it should be.”</p>
<p>CalMom’s response:
“That may be the case for the very elite admissions: the Ivies and a handful of other elites – but I honestly don’t think it is unpredictable or mysterious for the vast majority of colleges.”</p>
<p>I completely agree. I was referring to elite admissions but I didn’t make that clear. Thanks for mentioning it so I could clear that up.</p>
<p>‘Does anyone have any suggestions for how to guide a jack-of-all-trades / dabbler type of kid? My 8th grade daughter has shown potential in a variety of different activities, especially those related to music (singing, musical theater, piano, trumpet) and sports (soccer, basketball, X-C and track). Unfortunately, some of these pursuits conflict with each other (like soccer and X-C are the same season in school), and unless a student is exceptionally bright and talented it’s pretty difficult to achieve excellence/show passion in that many areas while taking honors classes.’</p>
<p>I’d let her make up her own mind. Believe it or not, there actually are some rare people who are truly well rounded – interested and excellent in a variety of things. Your daughter may end up being one of those.</p>
<p>She also may after trying to do everything eventually start concentrating on the things that are of most interest to her. This may happen because due to scheduling conflicts, she’ll have to make some choices. </p>
<p>Anyway, I suggest that you allow her to find her own way. The idea is to help a young person develop their strengths, interests and talents so that they can live a fulfilled life. The point isn’t to micromanage your kid to make sure that she gets into one of the top colleges.</p>
<p>Let her develop into the best her that she can be (even if that best her is a wonderful dabbler), and then look for colleges that match her interests and personality.</p>
<p>It also may be that she doesn’t need to take a full load of honors/AP courses. Just because she’s smart enough to intellectually handle such a load doesn’t mean that’s the best thing for her to do if where her strongest interest/talent lies is having a variety of other interests that she pursues with genuine interest and commitment.</p>
<p>Oh I see. Thanks calmom!</p>
<p>
You are playing games – I talked about a kid who stayed in reading & also watched tv & played video games as a teenager – you’ve turned that into a discussion about people drinking themselves into stupors. Actually, my observation in high school that the kids doing all the socializing were the ones doing the drinking. The one thing I could be sure of when my kid was sitting in my living room watching Jeopardy was that he was sober. My more active, engaged daughter was exposed to much more mischief at an earlier age. And at college, it isn’t the nerdy, bookish types puking in the hallways. </p>
<p>So let’s quit with the moralizing here: kids who come home from school every day and spend time with their families, read & study & relax don’t turn into drunkards.
I think parents should try to understand their kids, respect them, and respond to their needs and internal rhythms. You can do what you want for your own children: we all have rules and expectations. I don’t have any criticism of your approach: just that it isn’t mine, and I resent the moralizing. My son ended up doing just fine. He also has done many interesting things, which he did on his own time and in his own way, without parental prodding. My son had his pick of all sorts of colleges because he was a good student and gets really good scores on standardized tests. It turns out that is enough to get a kid into about 95% of the colleges that a bright kid might be interested in. </p>
<p>I’m not much of a gardener, but I know that some plants need a lot of watering and sunlight to thrive, and some will wither and die from overwatering or too much sun. I happened to be the parent of two kids with very different needs and very different approaches to life. I followed their leads, gave them my support when they wanted it, and tried for the most part to leave well enough alone. </p>
<p>When my son was in high school he came home one day and insisted that we all do Myers Briggs personality surveys. This is what we learned: Son is INTP. I am also INTP. We INTPs are generally quite happy when left to our own devices, but we don’t like people who try to meddle or change us.</p>
<p>Regarding introverts vs. extroverts:</p>
<p>Have known a friend since high school who is an extreme extrovert. He makes friends easily, and then loses them just as fast. He cannot ever be alone and has the highest cell phone bill, because he always has to be connected to other people. When my kids were small, I stopped answering his calls, he used to call me whenever he was in his car alone (alot, he was a salesman). My brother, an extreme introvert, was a hopeless high school student. He was, however, a thinker, and spent his free time pondering math. A poor student in high school, he found himself in community college and ended up graduating with a doctorate from a top university. He is now top in his field and gives lectures all over the world. He can be quite gregarious when discussing his passion and is extremely well-respected by his peers. However, when we get together as a family, he is still like the quirky, introverted teenager he was all those years ago. He is, however, happily married and happy in general. The extrovert is divorced and has always been a serial philanderer.</p>
<p>I think our society values extroversion over introversion, but I don’t necessarily believe that one leads to more success than the other.</p>
<p>Just want to pipe up in support of calmom’s and DRJ4’s comments.</p>
<p>The other danger is attempting to make your kid into something they are not (ie, forcing a kid to get out more because he/she is too introverted).</p>
<p>Kids want their parents to accept them for who they are, even if it does not fit the profile of what our society (or an adcom) defines as what it takes to be happy and/or successful.</p>
<p>“society and especially schools place a higher value on those who “give back” to their community. People who actively participate in their community are wonderful but they are not the only important people in our society. People who think and mature in more private ways are valuable, too. I worry that we are missing out on a whole generation of young Einsteins because we’ve told kids that it’s more important to have ECs than it is to read and think.”–DJR4</p>
<p>“I think our society values extroversion over introversion, but I don’t necessarily believe that one leads to more success than the other.”–Vango</p>
<p>I agree with the above quotes. The quest for admission to elite colleges is herding kids into packages and molds. I wrote on another thread about a bright student who rebelled against the expectation that he do community service or extra-curriculars just because he was “supposed” to qualify for NHS and admission to the top schools. He felt that his motive for volunteering would have been self-interest only and that that is not what should motivate charitable work. The student is brilliant, however, at writing Wikipedia articles and historical essays. Despite a varied and rigorous curriculum with very high grades and test scores, he was rejected from all the elite schools to which he applied. I would have loved to see a child with that kind of passion for historical research be educated at one of the best colleges.</p>
<p>Thank you to all of you who referred to their data, especially the alumni interviewers. My internet connection has been acting up (ahhh, Comcast) and I wasn’t able to respond to you guys yesterday. </p>
<p>Would most people agree that sports activities probably have the highest EC value, just from a probabilty standpoint, but that for any given individual doing what they love and excel at (excuse the dangling preposition) is the best “stategy?”</p>
<p>If one is absolutely excellent (state champion or better) at a sport that the university has slots to fill for (such as football, which needs lots of players), AND one has the stats for a highly competitive college, one can be golden. </p>
<p>Regardless, you are correct that it is very important to pursue one’s own interests and to do that with creativity, independence, skill and something that shows impact on yourself or on others. “Impact” could be demonstrated by including a recommendation from the mom of an autistic kid whom one mentored for several years. “Impact” could also be something like getting state or national awards for actions related to one’s EC.</p>
<p>Regardless of whether doing the EC opens doors at highly competitive colleges (which we all know have such an overabundance of applicants that even golden teens wil get rejected), pursuing ECs in the way described will open lots of doors – particularly the teen’s mind to the options that they can pursue as vocations and avocations in adulthood.</p>
<p>In an earlier thread, Xiggi provided a link to an article on Claremont McKenna. It had another data point in support of sports having a high EC value.</p>
<p>The article included a graph that showed something like 90% of accepted students as having participated in varsity sports in high school.</p>
<p>“Why? To give his parents something to brag about? The last thing in the world that an introvert wants is an anything-club – you’ve just managed to suggest a series of things guaranteed to take the pleasure out of reading. For many people reading is a very special, delicious, private & personal enterprise.”</p>
<p>LOL. I was thinking rather the same thing. Well meaning suggestions, but my kid hates even giving book reviews to me! He loathes reading out loud. And he never gives away books because he likes to reread them. :-)</p>
<p>But another child might love one of these suggestions.</p>