Congrats on his IB job!
Did he do any IB analyst internships?
Great tips! Thank you.
He WILL do this.
Should my son do this in preparation for an internship after Junior year? Is it too early?
Yes, he had an internship in NYC last summer, got a return offer, and signed his contract in September. He starts work in July. His first month will be training, because so many of the Ivy and Ivy-plus kids arenāt finance majors. Your sonās coursework is less relevant than he thinks and, as DS has told me, the math isnāt that hard.
Like @Catcherinthetoast said, now is the time to start networking. Heās already a little behind. Recruiting for IB internships begins in December of the sophomore year. Some firms wait until later, but almost all internships are awarded by early August (called on-cycle) before students start their junior year. DS had his last interview in early July after his sophomore year. And the advice not to concentrate on one firm is dead on. DS contacted them all, recruited for consulting, wealth management, and IB. He really had his heart set on IB and got it.
In defense of the admissions department, IB recruitment is very opaque and subjective. There really arenāt any steps one can take to guarantee a job. The counselors in Sloan would be more helpful, but he may not have access to them.
Feel free to PM me.
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S currently works at a BB in NYC where he interned summer of junior year. He started networking spring of sophomore year as banks and other financial services firms came on campus (he graduated from a school that is targeted by banks/hedge funds/PE firms, similar to MIT). This was not for summer jobs after sophomore year, but to get on radar screens for the real recruitment process which starts in the Fall of junior year. He met and stayed in contact with various people he met. In addition, he more or less knew juniors and seniors who had interned or had offers in hand upon graduation so he talked to them about preparing for interviews and their job experience. Going to a target school does allow you to bypass some of the LinkedIn cold calling (at least my S was spared that but he had several upperclassmen mentors). Your S should be doing this NOW as @Catcherinthetoast advises.
I also agree with @marrast that the most important thing now is networking. I would not get so hung up on the classes. He should take what interests him and make good grades.
He should not go into interviews with a āplanā to intern for a summer but pursue a PhD upon graduation. These firms are hiring interns on the assumption that if they make the cut, they will work at least 2 years with the firm. They are not interested in just a summer hire. If he likes his work and does well, he may never need a graduate degree.
IB, trading (esp quant trading), PE are very different jobs requiring different skills. Your S should get familiar with the differences. One area may be more aligned with his skills and interest. Talking to people who are or have been there is crucial.
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@marrast, @BKSquared:
THANK YOU so much!
Iāve learned more today from your inputs than Iāve had in 2months of reading/researching.
- didnāt know the TIMING of all this
- didnāt realize how much itās based on networking; I thought it was mostly LUCK and your transcript/resume that got you in
ā
@marrast: if you donāt mind, I will PM with a few more questions.
ā
Help:
- HOW does one decide which sector: IB, stock broker, quant, venture capital, wealth management?
- or does the sector choose you?
Son and I donāt know the difference between each.
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@Catcherinthetoast doesnāt toot his own horn, so I will. This is a great discussion that he moderated earlier this year that I think you will find helpful: Want a Career in Banking? Ask a Senior Banking Exec
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Readers Digest Version
IB: generally focused on capital market fund raising (debt or equity) for clients or mergers and acquisitions. Bankers these days are either industry specific (cover companies in the same/similar industries) or product specific (debt, equity, M&A).
Stockbroker/wealth management: advise retail clients (could be high net worth) on their investment portfolio. Execute trades of (usually) publicly traded debt and equity and other financial instruments.
Sales and Trading: at BB firms, you are facilitating the trading of securities/commodities/FX other instruments for institutional clients but are taking some principle risk as opposed to a pure broker who takes no risk and collects a commission. Watch the show Industry ā of course dramatized but gives you a general idea.
Proprietary Trading (hedge/quant funds): firms that buy and sell securities, commodities, FX etc to make money. Securities may be publicly traded or could be private. Quants generally are driven by mathematical models that try to exploit inefficiencies in market valuations. Other hedge funds may trade based on other strategies. Watch the show Billions ā again dramatized but good generalization.
PE/Venture Cap: Firms that generally buy shares in private companies in hopes for a payoff when the company grows and later is sold or goes public. Venture Cap focuses more on early stage companies. PE firms generally invest in later stage companies.
There often is crossover in the PE/Venture Cap/hedge fund worlds.
There is also Research. This is the department that gathers information and analyzes companies for their clients or for themselves.
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I was a math major at MIT, and did take an introduction to probability theory while there (and took a lot more probability and statistics as a graduate student elsewhere). However, the possibility of working on Wall Street never occurred to me.
That being said, I think that a solid background in Probability Theory would be very helpful. I would expect 18.600 to be a bit more mathematically rigorous compared to classes taught at Sloan, and I think that this is a good thing.
Probability Theory is something that some people take to, and some people do not. I do not know how to predict which way this will go other than being good at math should be helpful (which I would assume if your son is considering a PhD in mathematics). Personally I liked it a lot, and did use it in multiple jobs after graduation.
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@huango: All this tells you is that your first post was right on target.
Your son needs to know the language and functions of Financial Markets including Options and Future Markets, Entrepreneurial Finance and Venture Capital, Advanced Corporate Finances and Mergers, Acquisitions, Private Equity.
The course on Taxes and Business Strategy would be helpful, but not necessary.
These are the courses to which I direct high school students who express an interest in working in investment banking/finance.
The response to your initial thread starting post can be summed as: āyes, take at least the first five of the six listed courses and network with alumni in the industry.ā
Agree with the networking part.
The reality is that many students who go into banking havenāt taken any of those classes that OP asked about, especially students who attended LACs or other schools without business majors. I recommend OPās S talk with the profs of those classes, as well as some current students/alum and take the classes that most interest him.
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Agree that you are partially correct, but for those who express an interest in working on Wall Street / Investment Banking, these are some of the courses I recommend. Since these courses are readily available to OPās son, and since OPās thread starting post specifically asks about these courses, I thought it appropriate to answer OPās question in a more direct & succinct manner.
(I do the same for high school students, college students, business students, law students, career switchers as well as professionals looking to move to other departments with major accounting or law firms .)
Thank you.
The reason why I ask about these courses is because they all have prereq courses that he has to take before getting to these level. Heās planning out his 4yr schedule, to make sure he can fit them in
(such as some are only offered in the Spring, or alternate years, etc).
And he will start to network in the industry.
Another area that might be of interest is valuations; a good field for accounting types and quant jocks.
A common course that I recommend for Big 4 accountants in M&A/PE/Valuations & lawyers in major law firms is Capital Markets.
Do you work in banking? In what capacity?
I ask because a significant number of target I banking schools (6 of 8 ivies and top LACs) donāt offer these types of courses. In fact the most well worn path to analyst roles is Econ major at the aforementioned non business program schools.
Is your brother in law Graham or Dodd?
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Many with just liberal arts degrees and no business courses make it to Wall Street & IB often through connections. Sometimes through a single phone call. But OP is trying to maximize the odds for his son who, presumably, is without known connections at this time.
Actually it is often the case that these humanities backgrounds are sought after and recruited for on campus. You grossly over estimate the ācourse concernsā of those who actually interview candidates for these jobs. I have led teams of these recruiters for over three decades and personally conducted hundreds of banking interviews.
OP I would contextualize the advise you get.
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Reminder that CC is supposed to be a friendly and welcoming place. Posts edited to comply but next time theyāll be entirely hidden.
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Great context- Career Services at MIT, which has helped students launch into M&A, Quant, P/E, VC, Trading, etc. And not just āanonymousā voices on the internet- actual people who get paid to do what the OPās son wants to do.
They have helped students who major in Econ, various engineering disciplines, Poli Sci, and yes- Sloan- start their careers on Wall Street and similar. OPās son is not the first math/comp sci kid they have seen!
OP-- you guys are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. And just because your son has missed the āseasonā for internships for this coming summer, does NOT mean he has to do a study abroad program. He can get an actual job- a summer job at an insurance company on the risk management team (yes heāll be a desk jockey, but if he hates spreadsheets then there are lots of careers in investment banking that will not be for him, so good to learn now). Etc. Not too late (in fact, heās right on time) to line up an actual job at an actual company with actual cash flow, which will help him figure out what he likes and doesnāt like. He can get a job at a non-profit, he can get a research position at MIT (there is a database of āUROPāsā which are research positions specifically for undergrads) working for a professor at Sloan. Improving his Spanish is great, but it sounds as though a real job will help him figure out what he wants to do after undergrad.
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Are these Sloan courses available to MIT undergrads or are they part of a progression within MIT? If these course have prerequisites that will affect your sonās ability to take the math/STEM related courses he is interested in, then IMO it is a bad trade.
FWIW, my S was an Econ major and the only finance related course he took was Financial Economics. He also did not join a finance or consulting related club (he opted for Club sports and community service for his ECās). He works for a direct peer of GS. I agree with @Catcherinthetoast that coming from a feeder school, the financial institutions we are talking about are not looking for some list of finance/accounting related courses taken. The ability to to analyze information, including mathematical relationships, is what is important. Having finance related courses does not hurt (unless it impedes what the student actually wants to study), but is not necessary. I would agree with @Publisher that having a strong background in finance/accounting would be critical for someone coming from a non-feeder school.
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Good friendās child at any Ivy has worked as an analyst at Goldman for the past two years (has been given indication that they will be getting an offer) and is an Art History major so . . .
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I am a retired quant. My son will be a quant, so this is a field I know well.
The reality is that you donāt need any understanding of finance to get into the most selective quant firms. The view of these firms (including the likes of Jane Street, Optiver, Two Sigma, DE Shaw, RenTech, etc. ) is that a person who is smart enough to do math at the level they want can easily pick up the finance part. My son and his friends who also became quants had zero knowledge of finance, and they werenāt asked about it.
Now there is a different level of quant shops, still very good but not as selective, that do care about finance. Examples of these include Wellington, Numeric, certain groups in Fidelity, etc. Most students are not aiming here because A) They donāt hire that many people each year, and B) They donāt pay as well as the companies listed above.
I will be glad to explain more if you want. But be aware I am on the opposite side of the world right now, so my responses might be delayed.
ETA: Investment banking does not help at all with landing a quant job, but can help with more traditional investing roles.
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