What finance classes to take to get into stock market/investment banking?

Career Opportunities & Internships Investment Banking
41

I agree. That is one reason why I recommend courses which are available to all on the internet. Most can be taken on-demand.

@huango: Yes, your son should enroll in probability/statistics course.

If you need further resources or recommended classes which will not interfere with his MIT studies, then feel free to PM me.

While other posters share experiences in which no specific knowledge was required, it depends upon one’s role as to what type of knowledge is expected or needed if any.

I think that it would be foolish to target a career without any knowledge of the industry–and, hopefully, that is not what other posters are suggesting.

42

Does he even know what investment bankers do? As others have said, IB and quant roles are different things. Not just different jobs but different skill sets and types of people.

Honestly, math/cs with designs on grad school does not suggest IB to me but more quantitative roles. I’m not saying a math person can’t do IB work but just that they’re generally not as attracted to the work as they would be to quantitative roles (either in finance or elsewhere).

I don’t like generalizing but IB analysts are more likely to be Econ (or pretty much any major) and while good with numbers, not necessarily math major good. Smart, maybe with athletic backgrounds, good with excel and PowerPoint but not necessarily R.

The quantitative people are more likely to come from math, cs, physics and enjoy p sets and actual coding. If not quants in finance they might have ended up at NASA or Microsoft or academia. They are often a lot closer to engineers in mindset.

For the latter group getting finance coursework isn’t all that important.

He should talk with older math students and anyone in the career center who can explain these differences. Also keep an eye on the job and internship listings on handshake and he’ll start to see the different roles.

There are quantitative roles in consulting also.

But for someone interested in grad school I’d be focused on talking to faculty about research opportunities. That’s good background for quant roles also.

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43

This is the key difference in responses.

OP’s thread starting post asks: “HOW to get into the stock market/investments world?”

But then follows with: "Son wants to become a QUANT "

Followed by pointing out that the world of investment bankers is foreign to them so OP thinks son should take finance classes “so he’s not completely a fish out of water” doing an internship at GS/MS.

Quants do pursue various roles in finance/IB/PE/VC.

My interpretation as stated by OP that OP’s son wants to explore opportunities in “the stock market/investments world.”

There are great programs outside of MIT or any other college designed to introduce students & professionals to varied roles in finance/IB/etc. Most require just Excel skills & basic math while others require knowledge of Excel, calculus, & probability. No need to interrupt OP’s son’s planned courses for his major at MIT. The student can take the courses online and on-demand from almost anywhere in the world.

The overly simplistic advice of just calling alumni contacts involved in the industry does not recognize the intense competition for these type of positions–even for Wharton, Harvard, NYU, etc. type students.

OP wants his son to learn more about “the stock market/investments world” as do thousands of other students. There are many courses designed to do just that. Some are fairly basic while others are quite detailed for quants. I encourage OP & his son to search the internet for the dozens of readily available options.

There are entire websites devoted to this topic.

Whether OP’s son wants to explore “the stock market/ investments world” or wants detailed knowledge of what quants do in finance roles in the world of stock market/investments/IB/VC/PE, there are courses readily available.

P.S. My understanding is that posters on CC are not permitted to direct others to what may be competing websites and I do not want to appear to be promoting any possibly for profit websites so I will refrain from doing so, but I assure OP that there is substantial worthwhile material out there to satisfy any concerns.

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44

I have read all of the posts in this thread.

Regarding interviews: Although one may have interviewed a substantial number of potential interns or permanent hire candidates, it is highly doubtful that the applicant candidate interviewed with only one person that day. The last interview of which I was fully briefed/informed involved nine (9) different separate remote interviews over the span of a few days. Some interviewers were casual and friendly, while 4 or 5 were almost a grilling session of one’s background, experience,and knowledge applicable/relevant to the new role. So, although one may have interviewed hundreds of candidates, interviewer roles differ. Some are lightweight “do i like the individual candidate” interviews and some are much more thoroughly focused on the candidate’s qualifications for the position.

With respect to a poster who is a retired quant and has a family member quant neither of whom were asked questions about specific courses or knowledge related to the position, I would simply ask what was included on the resumes submitted.

The idea that highly competitive & highly coveted positions paying hundreds of thousands of dollars per year are being handed out to those with a degree from a prestigious college and a friendly “I like the guy/gal” type interview is a stretch. Nevertheless, they do happen. I know recent college grads who were hired in this manner, but they came from families of very substantial wealth and influence. Very substantial.

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45

My D took this four week virtual program with Goldman Sachs in May and June after freshman year if your S is interested. She had an internship at the time so it must not be too onerous to fit it in.
https://www.goldmansachs.com/careers/students/programs/americas/undergrad-virtual-insight-series.html

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46

Under the category “Engineers”, Goldman Sachs notes:

“What We Look For:”

“Knowledge of finance, stochastic calculus, and financial markets would be an added advantage.”

47

Being a (fintech) engineer, a quant, and working in IB are all very different things.

@huango, how much does your son know about investment banking? The first few years as an analyst are brutal, and I know many kids who burned out or hated what they did. I agree with the recommendations to network and connect with people in the industry. It’ll help provide a better sense of what these jobs involve.

Internships after sophomore and junior years are a common pathway to a full time role. If he’s sure he wants a Wall Street career, I’m not sure a summer abroad program in Chile is the best choice for him.

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48

OP as previously stated I have interviewed hundreds of summer internship candidates, managed target school recruiting teams, participated in dozens of follow up panel calibrations, managed thousands of Wall Street professionals and am the CEO of a bank that recently made 60+ internship offers for this coming summer.

Not going to go back and forth with well intentioned posters who disagree with my experiences but happy to help if you want to PM me.

I would also listen to and trust @hebegebe as his quant experiences are first hand.

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49

THIS is my son.

THIS.
This is the crux of the problem.
All of this is the problem:

==>> We don’t know HOW Quants are connected/utilized in the IB world.

–

He had an internship this past summer (after Freshman year) at an insurance company, doing some data mining. He enjoyed it, but the role was tiny so it didn’t give him much exposure of that world.

So he’s thinking to get an internship in IB or something, to expose him to that world.
Because we haven’t seen ANY internships for Quant (not w/out an advanced degree).

He’s not tied to a PhD.
Research showed that most Quants have PhD, so they can be taken seriously in their fields.

Maybe instead of Finance classes, son should take Econ classes? I thought Finance and Econ classes were interchangeable.
My son was 4 years Varsity athlete in HS, and he’s in Club sport at MIT (his sport is only club level), and he’s great with Excel and Powerpoint also.

Thank you, Yes, he is working on this, talking to his older frat brothers.

50

Did you receive my private message ?

All of your concerns and questions are easily addressed.

P.S. Outside of online courses which are designed to directly address your concerns, instead of pursuing a PhD in math, or prior to committing to a PhD degree, your son may want to earn the highest rated masters degree in the world for one with his qualifications and ambitions:

Master’s in Finance at Princeton University. This is an exceptional quant heavy focused program. Incredible placement for graduates of this demanding 2 year program. Although courses are added each year, there are at least 26 “permanent courses” offered which are likely to be of interest to your son.

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51

The particular online program that addresses much of your concern is not, unfortunately, offered on demand, but it can be taken during the summer in person or virtually (remote, but must adhere to the class schedule so that all students and instructors are present at the same time).

I do realize that the Princeton Master’s degree in Finance is a major commitment of both time & money, but the results are outstanding. Princeton may offer funding to some students in this program.

I’ll PM you some info.

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52

Grateful for all your input.
I can’t seem to be able to PM your private account.

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53

Sent you a note.

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55

Here is the web site of a well known quantitative trading firm. Not an easy place to get a job. But they have a lot of info on their site about what they do. Also quite a few mentions that no finance background is needed for these roles. This is not an investment bank and you probably won’t find investment banking mentioned.

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56

But is that OP’s issue ?

OP is seeking an understanding of the industry and the various roles within that industry for a quant.

@huango: Ask your son to consider a position at a hedge fund while also researching investment banks.

FWIW: One of my nephews has a similar background to your son. He was a math major at the University of Chicago and, upon graduation, accepted a position at a Chicago based hedge fund. Made a lot of money in 5 years so he retired from finance, moved to NYC, got a masters in journalism, and now writes books–which is his passion.

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57

Agree with this. S’s experience, which is not atypical: meet various people at networking events from firms he was interested in - typically younger bankers who are alums-- to get on radar screens; submit resume and cover letter via online portal; screening interview (some were one way where he recorded answers to computer prompts); live virtual interviews, usually someone from HR, maybe a junior banker; call back interviews at the firm’s headquarters with multiple professionals. Some were soft and some were more technical, but he did not have to delve into advanced financial theory – there is no expectation of that for interviewees without that background. His “mentors” at school told him what to prepare for and he could self study off the internet. Mostly it was reading up on current financial/economic events. Probably the most technical things involved interest rates and their effect on equity and bond markets and how options worked. At least those were the two areas he called me for some help on. Don’t know if he was even questioned about that. He did get some “math” problems thrown at him that required thinking on his feet and doing calculations in his head.

I suspect if the applicant is a finance/business major, they may get more technical finance questions thrown at them. When I worked in a BB and interviewed for IB analysts, I asked different questions of business/finance majors than liberal arts/engineering majors. For IB and I suspect other fields, for entry level positions we were looking for “the best available athlete”. We were going to teach them the technicals of their jobs whether they were a History of Art major or a Wharton finance kid in any event.

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58

One of my kids did an internship in software engineering for a well-known quant firm this past summer and will be returning there full-time after his 2024 graduation, so I’ll add my two cents in that area.

There are definitely quant internships for undergrads without advanced degrees. Has your son looked on Handshake? Handshake is like Linkedin for internships and new/recent grad jobs at many schools, and I think MIT is one of them, here: https://capd.mit.edu/resources/handshake/.

As others have mentioned, it’s a little late in the search process for summer 2024, but I just did a quick job search on Handshake for “quant” and there are still some postings for well-known firms, including Jane Street, D.E. Shaw, and Citadel, among others. These positions opened up months ago but they appear to still be taking applicants. Might be worth a shot to put a few applications in – even if ultimately unsuccessful, the experience would be valuable for prepping for getting that summer after junior year internship, which is the most important one. Your son always has the summer study abroad option as a backup plan.

As far as educating himself more on the various career paths within financial services, your son should be watching for companies coming on campus to do events and attend as many as time permits. Not all companies still do in-person but I know that Citadel, Point72, GS, Morgan Stanley, and many others would do receptions, info sessions, trading game nights, etc., where one could show up, ask questions, provide a resume, eat free food, and come home with more company-branded water bottles, hoodies, and other swag than they could use. My kid is at Duke and those events would also be posted on Handshake – they would often fill up well in advance so the kid needs to be diligent about checking periodically as new events are posted throughout the year.

I didn’t fully appreciate it going in, but the first job search process can be just as competitive and can be just as stressful (if not more so) as the highly selective college application process. Good luck!

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59

Thank you very much for the suggestion.
I will look into this also, since I don’t know what a hedge funder does.

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60

To be transparent- a kid doesn’t “consider” a role at a hedge fund. These positions are very highly compensated and extremely competitive to even get an interview. I think Publisher’s point is that your son should take a look at the entire field within finance- the type of institution, the kinds of roles, what the career path looks like both short term ( is it up or out?) and long term, etc. before ruling anything out- or before deciding that he’s going to get a PhD.

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61

Very good to know.

He was lucky to be “chosen” to attend a Dropbox networking event with the CEO in the Fall (for computer science majors), so I reminded him to look for and attend such events in the finance industry.

He needs to start doing this, instead of all his gaming and obsessing over his sport.

“best available athlete”?
How does one show that?
Biased mom here thinks her son is a rockstar! :laughing: