What I learned about law school admission

Neonzeus · May 1, 2011, 3:46pm

If she had undergrad loans, she may have to begin payments on them if she takes a gap year to work. However, this is likely to be outweighed by the value of the work experience and the benefits from raising her LSAT score. There are also some optimists who believe that the job situation will eventually improve for graduates in a few years. You’ve mentioned financial reasons for going to school now. If she has a scholarship from a bottom-barrel school, she’ll get more money with a higher LSAT at that school. With a higher LSAT, she stands a chance of getting into a better school. Better schools typically offer better employment opportunities and higher bar pass rates…aside from the professional regard of peers and clients.

Instead of using a “law school counselor,” use the money for LSAT prep classes. Her undergrad institution probably has a law school counselor who can give her advice for free, if she needs it.

My son knew several students who were unhappy with their cycle, and decided to retake the LSAT and try again. Some schools will average test scores, but many of them will take the higher score. It’s not unusual for students to do this, and it won’t be held against her.

Of course, if she delays a year, there is a risk that she will continue to research law schools and opportunities for graduates and that she will talk herself out of this career path. I’m sure you’ve already read all of the threads and articles out there about the glut of lawyers.

Law schools are full of motivated, articulate, successful and competitive students, all believing that they will either be at the top of their class, or will be the exception in this job market. Personally, I think optimism is a good character trait for lawyers. We all believe that we’re going to win/that we’re on the right side – otherwise it would be hard to wake up and fight the good fight every day, year after year.

roshke · May 1, 2011, 4:16pm

4halls, if the opportunity for the financial aid just came through and helps to explain the reason for your Ds late applications I believe you absolutely should address in an addendum.

taxguy · May 1, 2011, 7:22pm

4halldogs asks, "Your thoughts on paying for a law school admissions consultant at this point?
I would focus on taking the money to be used to pass the LSAt. I think you can get admittion counseling easily
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bluedevilmike · May 1, 2011, 7:37pm

Usually this doesn’t matter much, although I’ve seen SOME consideration for it in situations with a very high LSAT. In other words, if a Princeton kid has a 3.3/174, adcoms will suspect that he’s a bright kid who went to a tough school. If a Nowhere State kid has a 3.3/174, adcoms will suspect that he’s bright and lazy (or maybe lucky and not very bright). But if a kid from any school has a 3.3/149, admissions committees are going to look at two metrics which seem to be in agreement, and there’s no reason to reexamine.

(A 3.9/160 at Princeton, on the other hand, might be treated as a “struggler” who worked really hard in undergrad but probably doesn’t have the extra capacity to handle law school. And of course a 3.9/160 at Nowhere State will be seen as having gone to an easy school. As taxguy notes, the LSAT is the most important thing.)

bluedevilmike · May 1, 2011, 7:42pm

The other question she should ask is: Is she sure that law school is the right way to get to where she wants to go? I’m with bluebayou – two years with Peace Corps (I don’t know anything about that selection process) and then a master’s degree in International Relations might be the better way to go if she can get into a good program.

4halldogs · May 1, 2011, 7:56pm

Condor - that is sort of where we were with the LS consult. Very pricey and probably worthwhile in some instances, but we solicited info from 2 different ones - (both very prominent on the web) and when I got the softcopy packet of marketing materials, I found more than four different typos/grammar errors in each! I couldn’t believe it, especially given the prestige each were purported to have (if you go off of online info). I think I’ll stick with professional essay specific editing services and let those who aren’t getting paid to give her the best first hand point of view.

NeonZeus, yes waiting a year activates payment of her current loans and that is a big consideration. She is going to see if taking classes part-time might help defer. But that wasn’t the financial factor, it is a gift but given only if she starts this fall. It is a sizable one (equates to about the cost of living expenses each year), hard not to factor in. And true, once you are out of school, it is often hard to go back, but likewise I’m fairly certain she’ll be unhappy if she “settles”, so who knows?! I am glad, however, that you speak to that optimism as I was beginning to get more concerned about what the heck motivated many of you to ever become attorneys and/or why the heck you stay in the legal field!!! She is going to take the LSAT in June, as several schools will accept that.
Roshke - THAT is one thing we definitely needed to know. I assume she keeps it short, to the point, and ensures it comes across as positive without sounding like she is a sob story.

The convo (unfortunately via Skype as she is out of state) went better than thought.

She started submitting requests for LORs and Evals, and drafts of her PS and Resume in the fall, but put them on hold because of the circumstances mentioned previously. Now she has reactivated those requests and has final reviews of the req doco in flight. Provided she gets all the info from those soon, she is going to limit, but not overly so, the number of law schools that she applies to for the fall.

She has registered for the June LSAT admin since she’ll be (yay) graduated from UG and back home (for now). Concurrently, she is going to look at the schools on her list whose deadlines haven’t yet passed. Of those, she is going to again review their strengths, weaknesses, and median profile of incoming students. She is going to target those that, along with some online tools like the LS Predictor, she feels strongly are good for her and her for them.

Now, based on Roshke’s advice, will include an addendum about the circumstances of the prior LSAT (3 different immediate fam members in critical health at the same time prior to admin) and the financial assistance, but do so in a very positive (non-whiny, non sob story way).

Worst case scenario, she doesn’t get into any of the schools she wants to attend that she can still reasonably apply to. Second best case is she gets deferred for the class of 2012, she waits a year but she’s “in”. Best case is she gets accepted.

The silver lining is that if this doesn’t work out for the fall, she has time to retake LSATs, refine any doco and update schools on her list, and apply on day one of each school’s application period for the class of 2012.

The only question I have at this point is: What if she submits and gets rejections for this year. What does that mean for next year’s applications? Is it like a credit report - inquiries are factors in the equation that drives your score. Or, is it new year/clearn slate? I guess that wouldn’t be true if you were reapplying to a school that rejected you, huh? Would she submit addendums explaining why things are different/better (assuming LSAT is up). UGH! I feel as if this will never end. I sort of what “my life” back <s>.</s><s>

Everyone, including TaxGuy who initiated this discussion thread/forum in the first place - thank you, thank you, thank you. Virtual drinks on me!
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4halldogs · May 1, 2011, 8:09pm

BDM - I’ve not seen (and I don’t want to calculate the hours logged helping her with this research) a better breakdown of how the stats may be interpreted by AdComms. Seriously, I mean that. Also, she is now giving consideration to the MA in IR with some time abroad, if not PC, then several others we discussed. She hadn’t thought of that, nor had it been presented by her pre-law or UG advisor.

She seems pretty committed to the JD though, for a host of reasons including that being a tool by which she can effectively define, drive and/or influence change. Worth noting is she doesn’t believe she can save the world, but she does feel drawn to making a difference in this way. How does a parent argue with that vision or sense of direction/purpose? It demonstrates you gave them the very foundation they needed in order to reach a little higher, a little farther even if it is “harder”. Too bad reality adds this extra layer of complexity in their attempts at success.

It’ll just make it all the more sweeter when all the pieces fall together. Or at least that is what I’m going to keep telling myself. For now.

bluedevilmike · May 1, 2011, 8:18pm

Oh, it’s a good vision, no arguments here. I think she has to ask essentially one question with two subparts: How much of the value of the tool comes from the degree, and how much comes from the university? I would argue that a JD from Florida Coastal simply isn’t a very good tool for this sort of thing, while an MA from (if she can get in) Hopkins SAIS or Georgetown’s SFS is much better.

In other words, my question isn’t: “Once she gets a JD, what will she want to do with it?” The question is: “Why is she so concerned with a JD specifically, when there are cheaper and less selective options that are actually more directly related to what she wants to do?”

bluebayou · May 1, 2011, 8:33pm

I would challenge that assumption. Please show a source for the many JD’s have “defined, driven or influenced change” in in the international human rights arena? And from where were their JD’s?

Nothing wrong with reaching higher and harder. But spending $200k to find out that she is not gonna be the next CEO of Microsoft is a rather expensive lesson to learn. (I used an outrageous example on purpose.) A degree from a T3/T4 will not even receive consideration in DC – they are prestige hounds by definition (actually, a better word fits here). :)

Think about all of the press of the Royal Wedding that we just had. While we might think St. Andrews is an excellent college, the academes in England place it down the list. Heck, even some cc posters note that at best St. A is the xx-best college in the UK. (And William has taken flack for that.) Prestige is much more important outside of the US.

Full disclosure: in a former life, I worked in DC in the international world.

bluedevilmike · May 1, 2011, 8:43pm

As I mentioned a little while back on another thread:

Hillary Rodham Clinton, Yale Law
Warren Christopher, Stanford Law
Madeleine Albright, Columbia PhD
Edmund Muskie, Cornell Law
Cyrus Vance, Yale Law
Dean Rusk, Berkeley Law

roshke · May 1, 2011, 8:46pm

4halls, My advice about the addendum was meant to apply if your D goes ahead and applies this year, regardless, but if there is any room for improvement in her LSAT score, that is where I would make the investment in time and money. Unlike undergrad, some kids do reapply to the same school successfully. Just be aware that some law schools average the LSAT scores (some of the very selectives prefer just once) rather than taking the best score, even though they all report the range of highest scores to USNews.

bluebayou · May 1, 2011, 8:57pm

re: Hillary C – marriage is always a good possibility. :D

4halldogs · May 1, 2011, 9:35pm

To all of you - thanks for the much needed smile. Perhaps indeed she should bag all this and just shoot for being someone’s trophy wife?! she has the looks for it. I’m joking of course. I think perhaps I misrepresented her intent. I don’t believe she is looking to have a DC powerhouse address. Rather, I think she wants to work for some humanitarian or non-profit org. To that end:

BDM - I’m going to copy/paste your excellent question into an email and ask her to give that some serious consideration as we try to bring decisions to a close.

Roshke - So just to make sure I have your opinion straight, if she applies and is subsequently rejected to schools this year, it doesn’t reflect negatively on her attempts to apply next year - whether to the same schools or different ones, with the caveat if it were to the same schools she’d want to include an addendum explaining how she has changed and is now a better candidate for admission, RE: HIgher LSAT score resulting from the boot camp LSAT prep!

Lauren229 · May 1, 2011, 9:40pm

This thread and original post is absolutely amazing.

I, fortunately, have two years before applying to law schools (I am currently a junior in undergraduate). What kind of study preparation or classes are best to get ready for the LSATS? What works best/ helps the most?

4halldogs · May 1, 2011, 10:11pm

Lauren - A junior in UG? Good for you but as a mother of one traveling this road, let me give you some advice, you probably want to start looking at that timeline a little differently.

If you are a rising college senior, you have less than 6 months before you will want to start pressing the “submit” button on LSAC.
I am not exaggerating and my D and probably others wld agree, you need that long to get ready to
a) be serious about preparing for and taking the LSAT at least twice
b) get the best recommendations, evaluations, and personal statement crafted and finalized and confirmed they are all uploaded into LSAC
c) research and explore the schools to which you THINK you want to apply. (quick tip - D found that Top Law Schools’ list of all ABA approved schools by Tier has hyperlinks to a quick snapshot of the basics, pros, and cons. (not for all schools but most)
d) have enough time to do all of this in such a way that DOES NOT interfere w/ your GPA,
e) if needed, start meeting w/ pre-law advisor and professors - the latter if you need to really boost your GPA, and finally
f) start talking to people in all facets of the legal profession to make sure this is not only what you want, but what you need to do to get where you want to go.

If I could press the rewind button and have my D (grads in May) do just one thing differently? Last summer, instead of the individual LSAT test prep she “did” I would have bit the bullet, paid for an instructor led LSAT course that helped her learn HOW to take that test - the tips, tricks, and timeline management, which would have also forced the focus needed on cranking up that LSAT. That would have allowed her more time during the school year to focus on classes/GPA and would have alleviated lots of stress. If she ends up retaking LSAT, we are looking at TestMasters, GetPrepped, or PowerScore.

I’d value anyone’s personal experience or opinion (note: not endorsement of) any of the above.

Good luck Lauren. Hope you have a good support system!

Lauren229 · May 1, 2011, 11:22pm

@4halldogs

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer this question so in depth.

I should have clarified my description of “junior status” – I only just completed my sophomore year a couple of days ago, so I still have another four semesters of undergraduate courses to complete before graduating with a bachelor’s degree.

I have already spoken to pre-law advisors at my university, though only briefly, and have previously worked in a law firm as a secretary/researcher of sorts to get my bearing in the daily field. As a result, I am quite sure that this is the path that I want to take after completing my undergraduate degree (in fact, my second cousin is a judge and I have asked if I could assist him this summer as I only have a part-time job for the season).

I do need to sit down and avidly seek out colleges that would suit and benefit me the most. I am definitely going to look for an LSAT instructor beginning this summer so I can take the LSATS during this next year without being too close to application deadlines.

Thank you, again. :)

roshke · May 1, 2011, 11:22pm

4halls, As with LSAT scores, reapplication policies can vary depending on the school. At some, the new application is considered to be a completely new slate, and at others the old file is considered and they look to see what has significantly changed about the app.

bluebayou · May 2, 2011, 12:33pm

And so do the literally thousands of undergrads who graduate from top schools every year, and from top law schools. Most have top grades. They ALL want to work in a humanitarian/non-profit org. (One reason why non-profits are popular with law grads is due to the loan forgiveness – free money – and perceived better lifestyle than 80 hour work weeks in Big Law. The other is that Big Law jobs have contracted.)

Law schools graduate way more students than the market can absorb each year. Jobs in the non-profit world can be even MORE competitive than corporate jobs. Without a pedigree or contacts (in Hillary’s case, it was both) or significant overseas experience, it ain’t happenin’.

4halldogs · May 3, 2011, 12:14am

Lauren - Good luck, you have a great plan, good experience, and I’m sure you’ll do great things!

BB - She has identified several schools who have IR MA programs, as well as a couple that have dual degree programs. She is now looking beyond non-profit/IR, including Admiralty and Environmental Law. She is also looking to retake the LSATs in June while limiting the schools she applies to this year. She is also researching a couple of options for serving/working abroad if she defers.

To all of you, thank you very much.

Sam_Lee · May 3, 2011, 10:17pm

Northwestern pretty much requires it and it takes about 45 mins.

What I learned about law school admission

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