<p>[The</a> Dallas Morning News: More Mexicans leaving U.S. under duress](<a href=“http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/070508dnmetimmigrants.24395628.html]The”>http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/070508dnmetimmigrants.24395628.html):</p>
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<p>You’re still not answering my questions. What do YOU propose to do about those undocumented immigrants already here? I think we’ve established that we can’t deport all of them. You’ve gone on about how they drain our cities of resources (while making no mention of the contributions they make to our economy). What, then, are your objections to offering them a path to become legal, tax-paying, law-abiding residents? Over time, this would raise wages and allow for U.S. citizens to bid for those same jobs, creating healthy competition. It would also allow these people to become legitimate members of society. I agree that the education system in this country is broken in many ways, including our inability to find a suitable form of ESL education. I completely agree that immigrant children should not be taught in their native languages- it’s completely detrimental to their futures. </p>
<p>BTW, can you give an example of a school where classes are taught SOLELY in spanish? i live in chicago and have taught esl at some public schools here, and have never even heard of a school where spanish classes weren’t optional.</p>
<p>“You’re still not answering my questions.”</p>
<p>Is there a legal requirement to do so?</p>
<p>“What do YOU propose to do about those undocumented immigrants already here? I think we’ve established that we can’t deport all of them.”</p>
<p>You do what you do to deal with any large problem. You work on it a little at a time.</p>
<p>“You’ve gone on about how they drain our cities of resources (while making no mention of the contributions they make to our economy).”</p>
<p>If you want contributions in the form of cheap goods and services, then I guess they make a contribution. But it is at a cost which should be obvious.</p>
<p>“What, then, are your objections to offering them a path to become legal, tax-paying, law-abiding residents? Over time, this would raise wages and allow for U.S. citizens to bid for those same jobs, creating healthy competition. It would also allow these people to become legitimate members of society.”</p>
<p>The problem is that it puts them at the head of the line compared to those following the legal path.</p>
<p>“I agree that the education system in this country is broken in many ways, including our inability to find a suitable form of ESL education. I completely agree that immigrant children should not be taught in their native languages- it’s completely detrimental to their futures.”</p>
<p>The problem is the cost in social services. The cheap cost of services may benefit some. But at a huge overall cost to others and society. Private benefits, social costs.</p>
<p>“Is there a legal requirement to do so?”</p>
<p>uh… in general, if someone attacks or disagrees with what i’m proposing, i expect them to come back with their own idea. but no, there isn’t any ‘legal requirement’</p>
<p>“you work on it a little at a time”</p>
<p>okay, what would the first baby step be?</p>
<p>“cheap goods and services”</p>
<p>way to ‘cheapen’ their existence. i’d like to see our economy and our current way of life survive without these ‘cheap goods and services.’ are you talking about restaurant workers, gardeners, construction workers, agricultural workers, and all those other things so crucial to the workings of our society?</p>
<p>“he problem is that it puts them at the head of the line compared to those following the legal path.”</p>
<p>again, we need to find PRACTICAL solutions. you know, ones that work? undocumented people are already here by the millions. we can’t deport them all. aside from complaining that they are cheating other immigrants out of their fair shot, what are we going to do about them? </p>
<p>“the cheap cost of services may benefit some”
right, you mean it benefits pretty much everyone except for rich people who could afford them no matter the cost.</p>
<p>“BTW, can you give an example of a school where classes are taught SOLELY in spanish?”</p>
<p>It happens by the dozen in my state. Your state is not mine. There is educational anarchy in many schools in my state. The populations in those cases are overwhelmed, the school administration is AWOL, & the State’s dept. of Ed. is playing triage. </p>
<p>You live in an ivory-tower world, where theories are divorced from reality.</p>
<p>It has nothing to do with “what’s allowed,” “what’s the law,” “what should happen.” When a population with a different culture arrives in massive numbers, and the local agences & institututions are not prepared & set up beforehand to absorb them (because there hasn’t been a LEGAL process to do so, which would anticipate that, because there therefore isn’t the ORDER in place to accommodate them), chaos ensues, and the numbers rule the day.</p>
<p>And there is no instant solution for the situation, because of the cost of social services, which BCEagle mentioned. No state has emergency funds of a size needed to handle such an enormous unplanned result. Our state has appealed to the feds, since immigration --legal & illegal-- is a federal responsibility, and the feds have told us to screw ourselves. </p>
<p>Further, there is no instant work force trained to educate & initiate these populations.</p>
<p>Really, you live in an unreal world.</p>
<p>“uh… in general, if someone attacks or disagrees with what i’m
proposing, i expect them to come back with their own idea. but no,
there isn’t any ‘legal requirement’”</p>
<p>Why? One can criticize a condition without providing something to
replace it.</p>
<p>“okay, what would the first baby step be?”</p>
<p>Enforce the law. Perhaps a little here and a little there.</p>
<p>“way to ‘cheapen’ their existence. i’d like to see our economy and our
current way of life survive without these ‘cheap goods and services.’
are you talking about restaurant workers, gardeners, construction
workers, agricultural workers, and all those other things so crucial
to the workings of our society?”</p>
<p>I’m talking about cheap goods and services. Whether from China,
Eastern Europe or in the US. We need wage inflation. The way to do
that is to decrease the supply or increase the demand.</p>
<p>“again, we need to find PRACTICAL solutions. you know, ones that work?
undocumented people are already here by the millions. we can’t deport
them all. aside from complaining that they are cheating other
immigrants out of their fair shot, what are we going to do about them?”</p>
<p>We can deport some of them and keep doing that.</p>
<p>“right, you mean it benefits pretty much everyone except for rich
people who could afford them no matter the cost.”</p>
<p>If we dropped the labor supply, wages would have to rise benefitting
everyone. We would have a better allocation of resouces and we
wouldn’t have a distorted market due to the ability of a competitive
advantage of illegal labor.</p>
<p>Attrition and enforcement of laws seems to be working where it’s implemented. Let’s do more and see what happens.</p>
<p>“I’m talking about cheap goods and services. Whether from China,
Eastern Europe or in the US. We need wage inflation.”</p>
<p>Perhaps you should take a stroll in dept. stores. You will get an idea about how much stuff is being imported to help you live. If you ban those goods those countries would not buy anything for US. And Wage Inflation? that would make our products so expensive that no one would buy them.</p>
<p>“Perhaps you should take a stroll in dept. stores.”</p>
<p>Yes, I do keep an eye on our trade numbers.</p>
<p>“You will get an idea about how much stuff is being imported to help you live.”</p>
<p>And how many jobs have been drained off for those cheap goods. Just like boiling a frog to death.</p>
<p>“If you ban those goods those countries would not buy anything for US.”</p>
<p>Strawman. Where did I say that I’d ban foreign goods?</p>
<p>“And Wage Inflation? that would make our products so expensive that no one would buy them.”</p>
<p>What did we do before China Marts? Oh yeah. We made them over here. And we had people working in manufacturing. And we had our own beer companies.</p>
<p>All right, well if your “solution” is to slowly deport 12 million people, good luck! that will cost billions more dollars than having them here ever would. not to mention, it’ll break up millions of families. but i guess those kids deserve it. they had the audacity to be born to undocumented workers. </p>
<p>you keep saying “enforce the law!!!” all right, but what about changing the law to reflect the changing times?</p>
<p>oh, and please don’t refer to chicago as an “ivory tower.” the undocumented immigrant population here is huge. </p>
<p>zoosermom, i find it incredibly hard to understand how you can dedicate time to teaching immigrants (who you have admitted might be undocumented) English, and at the same time rail against those same people and encourage deportation. seems a bit disingenuous to me. but maybe i’m just not as “compassionate” and informed as you! oh, and i live in an “ivory tower” (actually one of the most ethnically diverse neighborhoods in chicago) so i must not understand anything either!</p>
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What about the families and communities left behind?</p>
<p>Interesting that some posters are so insistant on enforcing “the law”, as if it had always existed and is an inviolable moral standard. I seem to recall that, prior to the 1920’s the immigration barriers were minimal and the US had incredible economic expansion. The great depression coincided with the imposition of Hawley Smoots tariffs and immigration barriers. Also interested that some posters think that illegal immigrants get a free ride…ranks right up there with the heinous myth of the welfare cadillac. They work hard and, what is probably even more important to our economy at the moment, are (unfortunately for them) at the lower end of the income scale where nearly every dollar of income is spent (the sort of people who were maximally targeted by the recent tax payer refund). As they do better, more goods and services get purchased, more jobs are supported. Throw them out only at peril to your own economy now as well as your retirement later.</p>
<p>Post 111:
Living, working, studying in “an ethnically diverse neighborhood” does not necessarily signify an acceptance & understanding of the everyday realities of Anglo, Black, & Asian legal residents who are also public schoolchildren & parents of public schoolchildren. Nor does the city of Chicago begin to reflect the impact of massive immigration such as the west & southwest do. Illegally residing immigrants have begun to fan out north & East, but not nearly in the numbers & proportion as have affected the everyday economic & institutional factors (the marketplace of goods, services, jobs; the cost & availability of medical care; the quality & culture of the lower-rung public schools) in areas traditionally & still attracting Hispanic illegals. Perhaps the undocumental immigrant population is “huge” in chicago compared to what it used to be, but it still pales in comparison to the populations & de facto cultures in CA, AZ, NM, TX, etc.</p>
<p>Post 110:
“they had the audacity to be born to undocumented workers.”
Actually, it was their parents who had the audacity to risk the consequences – to their children – of illegal entry.</p>
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You are either confused or dishonest. I have specifically stated that I oppose deportation. I find it very hard to understand how someone could presume to think that they have all the answers for something so complicated, as you seem to think you do. I accept the practical realities of helping people who are here while understanding that their presence here is very harmful to others, most especially the people left behind. You have an answer that works for your self-esteem but you conveniently ignore the black community, which is harmed by illegal immigrants and you conveniently ignore the fact that many of the illegals who are here don’t want to be. You ignore the fact that families are destroyed, along with communities and indigenous cultures. Doesn’t work for you to acknowledge those things does it? You also ignore the fact that the corrupt governments and elite citizens are practicing ethnic cleansing in their countries and maintaining their lifestyles at the expense of the poor. It’s not a simple matter of “Look how compassionate I am that I want poor, uneducated people to come to America. I’m much better than those nativist, xenophobes!” Your arguments can’t be taken seriously because you don’t take the issue seriously.</p>
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If they were legalized, they’d be collecting SS and health care, so your argument holds no water unless your’re advocating using these people and throwing them out when you’re done with them. What say you to the fact that legal workers would gain benefits and minimum wage, leading employers to not hire them. What then?</p>
<p>“some posters think that illegal immigrants get a free ride.”</p>
<p>Free education is called a free ride. ER medical care is also a free ride when the patient cannot pay. There are no assets to collect against. It is not poor legal residents who have succeeded in bankrupting hospitals across the country, but especially in the West/Southwest. </p>
<p>“They work hard…” Versus? (Millions of legally immigrated Asians & Middle Easterns and legally residing Blacks & white Anglos work hard, as well.) I have no doubt that a borderless country with unenforced immigration laws would attract additional millions of similarly hard-working folks from every corner of the globe. And your point is?</p>
<p>zoosermom:</p>
<p>i take the issue plenty seriously. i lived in mexico for 7 years. i know tons of people who had family members living illegally in the u.s. and yes, i know what it does to communities. that is why i am in favor of putting increased pressure on the mexican government to come up with ways of creating more and better jobs in mexico. some people do want to go back to mexico, to visit their families especially, but can’t for fear of not being able to return to the u.s. where many have put down roots, bought houses, cars, have children, etc.</p>
<p>but i’m not talking about future immigrants. i’m talking about the people who are ALREADY in the u.s.
in your previous post you accuse me of being dishonest because i said you favored deportation. maybe i am confused, because a few posts back you specifically said you agreed and wanted to have the law enforced, a post that came right after someone else saying that we should start deporting undocumented immigrants. thanks for clarifying , although i guess i’m still unclear as to what you’re proposing. </p>
<p>i’m not simplifying the issue. i’m proposing a (relatively) simple solution, and i have yet to hear a workable and humane alternative. bolster border security, yes. pressure the mexican government and provide aid so that mexico can take that leap into a first world economy. but also deal with the 12 million undocumented people that are here. give them a path to become legal so that they can pay taxes. wage competition will result. </p>
<p>one more thing… i see a lot of undocumented workers here who seem to be doing just fine. most are not rich, no. but many are solidly lower-middle class. they own houses, or pay their rent just fine, they own cars, they go shopping. i see many black and sometimes white communities where the people seem to be doing much worse. why the disparity? </p>
<p>epiphany-- i don’t even know what to say to you, since you seem to equate parents’ wrong-doing (if you want to call it that) with consequences for their children, as if that was the moral thing to do. let me guess, you’re also opposed to affirmative action, because why should people pay for their ancestors’ mistakes? a bit of hypocrisy.</p>
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<p>Yes, having to utilize deportation procedures to force every illegal immigrant to return to the country of their citizenship would be expensive. But enforcing our laws against hiring them might force them to return voluntarily and that would be cheap. Mexico would be the beneficiary of an infusion of American-educated, healthy and skilled workers, all provided gratis, at the expense of American taxpayers. And these people would have the chance to give back to America, by utilizing what they have learned to improve conditions in Mexico so that its citizens can remain there.</p>
<p>Lily, I also am in favor of pressure upon the Mexican government. Perhaps that’s all we agree on. The practical reality is that sweeping amnesty would be devastating for the most vulnerable American populations. For all your compassion, I don’t see that you have any interest in those people. The other practical reality is that the minute the current group is legalized, they will demand (rightly) benefits and minimum wage, which will make them less desirable to employers. Who will support them then? Then other illegals will come to take those jobs at the lower wage and we will have unemployed blacks, unemployed legal immigrants and employed illegals. Not a good look. What I support is slow attrition (as I’ve posted repeatedly) with pressure placed upon the governments of Mexico and Guatemala. I’ve also read recently about the demands placed upon those governments by returning migrants. That’s a very good thing and the way that I think change will come. I support sanctions upon employers and zero tolerance for criminal activity. We don’t need to solve this problem in one fell swoop. We can patiently and methodically do what’s right.</p>