<p>“All right, well if your “solution” is to slowly deport 12 million people, good luck! that will cost billions more dollars than having them here ever would”</p>
<p>Their educations alone cost $60 billion annually. Do you have the numbers to show that it would cost more than this figure to deport them slowly?</p>
<p>I’m fascinated that some think that illegals “gain” all these freebies (like education) but contribute nothing. To the contrary… their spending is a significant impact on the economy and contributes to the rest of us having jobs (as well as other economic benefits)</p>
<p>^^^ I’m fascinated that you think that spending is anywhere in the ballpark of education, healthcare, food stamps, etc. It’s not.</p>
<p>“I’m fascinated that some think that illegals “gain” all these freebies (like education) but contribute nothing. To the contrary… their spending is a significant impact on the economy and contributes to the rest of us having jobs (as well as other economic benefits)”</p>
<p>Why don’t you do yourself a favor and calculate what you think the benefit is and then let us know what you come up with and your methodology. As far as costs go, the $10,000 per half person is just a starting point.</p>
<p>Your point about contributing nothing is a strawman. They may contribute something but the contribution gets swallowed up by the cost.</p>
<p>“you seem to equate parents’ wrong-doing (if you want to call it that) with consequences for their children.”</p>
<p>Yes. The parents’ behavior is directly responsible for the consequences to their children, unless these immigrants came here in chains, against their will.</p>
<p>“let me guess, you’re also opposed to affirmative action, because why should people pay for their ancestors’ mistakes? a bit of hypocrisy.”</p>
<p>You have absolutely no idea whom you are addressing. Take a look on CC and see my long history of AA discussions. Then come back here & make the same claim. In fact, clearly since your join date in 2004 you never even bothered to read AA discussions on cc; if you had, you would have seen my name prominently among them, & you would have no doubt as to where I stood. </p>
<p>I don’t know what they’re teaching you at Northwestern, or what you’re failing to absorb & accept, but thinking logically and doing your research before you come to conclusions are not some of the things you’re gaining by your class attendance there.</p>
<p>“Hypocrisy?” That wouldn’t be myself. But it could certainly apply to anyone who narrowly advocates for the rights of impoverished illegal immigrants over the rights of impoverished legal residents…Which is exactly what you do by your denial of these disparities.</p>
<p>BCEagle & Zooser: By definition econometric data will be difficult to obtain for a population that isn’t fully reflected in conventional data collection…so you may be right…neither of us can prove our points. Consider, however, that not only does this population spend almost everything it earns, thereby contributing a lot to the economy (and remember from frosh econ, that the exponential effect as dollars circulate through the system is far more than just the dollars spent), it is the mainstay of a number of industries (eg agriculture) which would either have difficulty existing or would exist only by passing on dramatically increased prices (expense of technology or more expensive labor) and possibly damaging the environment (think farmers trying to lower costs by “factory farming” and what that means in terms of pollution and cruelty to animals).</p>
<p>“not only does this population spend almost everything it earns, thereby contributing a lot to the [Mexican!] economy…” !</p>
<p>Millions of dollars are additionally pumped into the Mexican & Guatemalan & Salvadoran economies by these same immigrants, every year. Some immigrants (I don’t know percentages) send, by their own admission, a dollar below the border for every dollar they spend above the border.</p>
<p>Get your facts straight.</p>
<p>Caleno, they are a mainstay of those industries because the employers don’t have to pay them legal wages and benefits. Who wins in that? Their presence in those industries locks out citizens who are poor and uneducated and prevents technological advances. what do you say to the legal poor? Tough luck?</p>
<p>Caleno:
All of your posts seem to be attempts to justify that these illegals are necessary for the USA, a net benefit, and why they should stay. Given that, do you think there should just be an open border - no immigration controls? If not, how do you reconcile that against your arguments in your posts - exactly what controls would you put into place and what would you do with those that ignored those controls, i.e. simply ignored them and broke the laws (like the current illegals did)?</p>
<p>lilybbloom:
The same question although from your posts it seems that you lean more towards ‘they’re here and have managed to not be caught yet so therefore we should allow them to stay here’. Does this mean that as long as they’ve gotten away with it so far we should just forget about enforcing the laws towards them? And if we did that, what’s the point in the laws in the first place so would you also advocate an open border?</p>
<p>epiphany- interesting that, in an area where facts are not reported, you have a monopoly on "straight fact"s. I guess we would have to concede that for all the smoke you blow there must be at least a little fire. And your “facts” would show that a family or individual with just barely a basic income and needing to somehow pay for food, shelter, and clothing here somehow is awash with funds such that they can contribute “a lot” to another economy? Let’s even take your assertion, hard to believe as it is, at face value. So if we manage to ship all the illegals back to South America (interesting that you assume illegals only come from South America, guess you missed, among many other things, the news report about the smuggler ship and illegal chinese immigrants off Long Island), and we thereby cut off all those millions of dollars going into Mexico. Guatemala, and Salvador…those economies have less capacity to buy our goods and services as well as to promote their own industries, which just helps beggar us all.</p>
<p>“By definition econometric data will be difficult to obtain for a population that isn’t fully reflected in conventional data collection…so you may be right…neither of us can prove our points.”</p>
<p>It costs public schools roughly $10K per student.</p>
<p>“Consider, however, that not only does this population spend almost everything it earns, thereby contributing a lot to the economy (and remember from frosh econ, that the exponential effect as dollars circulate through the system is far more than just the dollars spent), it is the mainstay of a number of industries (eg agriculture) which would either have difficulty existing or would exist only by passing on dramatically increased prices (expense of technology or more expensive labor) and possibly damaging the environment (think farmers trying to lower costs by “factory farming” and what that means in terms of pollution and cruelty to animals).”</p>
<p>I posted several scholarly articles on the issue from CQ Researcher. Those articles make a good starting point in finding numbers. The article on North Carolina tries to make your argument but fails because it only takes state spending into consideration. If we didn’t have illegals, wages would have to rise for the same labor and we’d have an exponential effect on a higher base.</p>
<p>The net result of the cheaper labor/goods economy is a draining of manufacturing and other jobs in the US. Financial engineering and technology have provided a boost for the US economy but we are still bleeding good jobs.</p>
<p>If you are a student or professor, you should have access to research resources. I’d suggest spending some time to take advantage of these resources. Freshman English should have included a semester on research writing.</p>
<p>Again, Caleno, you demonstrate your limited experience. Illegal immigrants with “barely a basic income” do indeed manage to scrape together quite a sum to send to relatives. They do so by living in larger groups than the typical single U.S. household does. They do so by living frugally. going without, and often by accepting payment only in cash. “Blowing smoke?” No, that activity belongs to you and lilybloom. Again, you are without facts to back up your assertions. Any adult who has been out in the labor force for a considerable time period, and who works in a diverse environment populated by a sizeable number of undocumented workers, is well-acquainted with these, yes, facts.</p>
<p>“(interesting that you assume illegals only come from South America, guess you missed, among many other things, the news report about the smuggler ship and illegal chinese immigrants off Long Island),”</p>
<p>I referred specifically to this incident on a related immigration thread on CC, so again, this is an example of someone not doing the research, yet making ignorant assertions.</p>
<p>Zoosermom: In my area the illegals are not getting paid illegal wages; they are taking low wage jobs as well as occupations (such as housecleaning) that many residents refuse to fill. In agriculture in my state, they are mostly paid legally for tough, hand picking positions that most residents also refuse to fill. Many of the “legal poor” lament, for good reason, manufacturing jobs that have gone and don’t want these other jobs. Before you get enthused about pointing out that’s NAFTA’s fault, please note that those manufacturing jobs have also already migrated (or are in process of migrating) to the cheapest labor source…now China, so the latins have no responsibility for those job losses.</p>
<p>Ucsd dad- I haven’t thought through an immigration policy. However, just like price and wage controls cause economic dislocations and ultimately fail, so does an unrealistically draconian immigration policy: we can dam the flow for a while, but the dam will burst at some point. If the legal barriers were far less there would be less incentive to avoid, better opportunity to regulate and promote whatever social and economic good you espouse. I don’t have the facts, so my friend BCEAGLE will no doubt enjoy thrashing me, but to take your bait, I would venture that legalizing those here and reducing entrance barriers to something approaching a simple and reliable registration system would be less costly in human and economic terms than the present system</p>
<p>Here are some facts from the Inter-American Development Bank. Some of this data comes from a survey of 5000 Latin American immigrants, half of whom are illegal immigrants:</p>
<p>–The economic downturn in the US has been tough on Latino immigrants.
–In the last two years, 3 million Latino immigrants stopped sending money home.<br>
–Only half of the 18.9 million Latino immigrants in this country regularly send money home, compared with 73 percent two years ago.
–Life has recently become much more difficult for Latino immigrants in the US because of lower income, less job security, increasing hostility, and discrimination.
–Of the Latino immigrants who have been here less than 5 years, 49% are thinking of returning home.
–Just under 1/3 of all Latino immigrants are thinking of leaving the US.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/us/01immigration.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/us/01immigration.html</a></p>
<p>Caleno, they are getting illegal wages. Those housecleaners aren’t making minimum wage with benefits, they’re just not. And how do you know thatAmericans won’t do those jobs? Since Americans have to be paid minimum wage and benefits, they’re not getting those jobs. Keep telling yourself that Americans won’t do those jobs to justify your position, but it’s still not going to be true. I PERSONALLY have witnessed scores of young black men and women trying to get dishwashing jobs in NYC restaurants and being turned away. You are 100% right about chinese immigrants, but the outcome is different. The Chinese come here to become Americans and to become educated. The group of immigrants with whom I deal didn’t want to become American. They are desperate for money. it’s a very different outcome and one that we shouldn’t be encouraging.</p>
<p>“I don’t have the facts”</p>
<p>Then get them. This is College Confidential. Not high-school confidential (apologies to those high schools that do a good job teaching research writing).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>How do people not feel genuine compassion for that? How do you not want to help human beings make better lives where they want to be? I don’t see the compassion in leaving people so desperate that they have no choice but to leave home. I really don’t.</p>
<p>Caleno,</p>
<p>“Remittances” are transfers of money from foreign workers to their home countries. A quick review of wikipedia on the subject reveals this:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Bay and BCEAGLE: Thank you for your factual contributions. How reliable is wikipedia? For example: we have been talking about Mexico; I would be interested to be shown that remittances “account for more than 10% of GDP and exceed the dollar flows of the largest export product”…take a look at Mexico’s GDP and its income from raw materials (especially metals and oil…or just oil, if you like). Is the assertion substantiated? </p>
<p>BC Eagle: I am neither a student nor a professor, and clearly (as I readily admit) not good at research. Are we only permitted to ask a question or pose an opinion on this forum if we are a student or professor or armed with wikipedia level reliable research?</p>
<p>Caleno,</p>
<p>Here is additional info about remittances on wiki, which provides numerous citations that you may use for additional research that interests you:</p>
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</p>
<p>If you find information that refutes wikipedia, it allows you to post your disagreement with supporting evidence.</p>