<p>Here is a report on the federal fiscal impact of illegal immigration by Steven A. Camarota, Director of Research at the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, D.C. It does not address the costs at the state level, but acknowledges that they are significant as well.</p>
<p>[Center</a> for Immigration Studies](<a href=“http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalconclusion.html]Center”>The High Cost of Cheap Labor)</p>
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<p>HK, for the record, no one here supports illegal immigration although we may have different views on what should be done for those who are already here and on how we should move forward. For me a sensible policy is to have work permits, currently reserved for skilled labor, being extended to unskilled labor as well.</p>
<p>"Epiphany, do you really believe that your well selected anecdotes and wikipedia excerpts amount to “research” that is superior to anyone else’s? "</p>
<p>No, I have never said or implied that on this thread. I have said that my anecdotes are not research, but that they add a valid dimension to the discussion that statistics do not, because statistics are broad & do not necessarily elaborate on lifestyle, which is what Caleno was questioning. Since he is not as familiar with the lifestyles (apparently), as are zooserman (it would seem) and myself, I offer those to him & to anyone else who is inappropriately using a U.S. model of lifestyle, economic expecations, & consumer assumptions, to make assumptions about just who is & who isn’t able to send money to the originating country.</p>
<p>“how would you characterize your replies to Caleno in this thread?”</p>
<p>Not personally insulting, as yours was toward me, and gratuitously so, as I never attacked you, yet you entered the discussion & engaged in ad hominem epithets. That’s undoubtedly because I don’t agree with your position(s). And I’ll continue not to agree with one-sided perspectives on immigration – legal or illegal – & one-sided characterizations of those who actually want limits. We’re not evil; we’re not devils. We serve these people.</p>
<p>padad, you are way off base if you’re reading this thread in the manner that you have characterized it. Just because some heated words have been exchanged does not mean that the entire thread is a bash-fest. I know you seem to think, from previous postings of yours, that immigrants, whether legal or illegally arrived, are collectively bashed & blamed all the time. They are not, & certainly not by me & not by many educated, caring individuals. What I object to, whether it’s xiggi or lilybloom or anyone else, is the mischaracterizing of a wish for an immigration <em>policy</em> that incorporates positive & negative aspects of immigration, as a hate-immigrants stand. It’s the tyranny of PC-thinking that stifles discussion of alternatives & possibilities.</p>
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<p>Bay, while I believe that Steven A. Camarota has mostly focused on the differences between expenses and DIRECT tax revenues to reach his conclusions, the research produced by the Center for Immigration Studies is surely worthy of a deeper look. </p>
<p>However, here’s a different approach --one I believe goes directly at the heart of the question posed by the OP of this thread.</p>
<p>There are too many figures to quote correctly but here are the conclusions. </p>
<p><a href=“http://frank.mtsu.edu/~berc/tnbiz/immigration/ford.pdf[/url]”>http://frank.mtsu.edu/~berc/tnbiz/immigration/ford.pdf</a></p>
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The current popular discourse concerning illegal immigration issues is heavily burdened by an excess of media and politically driven heat and a serious shortage of economic light. Viewed through the above prism of macroeconomic analysis, some of the proposed solutions to our illegal immigration issues are clearly na</p>
<p>Epiphany, at the risk of repeating myself, I have no problems in acknowledging our differences of opinions. I do, however, find your continuing insistence that you or a number of posters you enlist DO know better --much better-- based on superior understanding of the issues or … deeper personal experiences. I also believe that you like to describe the positions of others as “one-sided perspectives on immigration – legal or illegal – & one-sided characterizations” for no good reasons. </p>
<p>This is what I considered arrogant and off-putting. And I call them as I see them!</p>
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<p>Actually, I will take credit for posting the wikipedia excerpts. My intent in posting them was to provide Caleno with some basic information about remittances, as s/he implied that most illegal immigrants do not have the means to send money home. It was not intended to be meaty research to prove any point. Obviously, Caleno is free to pursue that on his/her own and dispute the existence of those remittances, if interested.</p>
<p>“There would almost certainly be significant negative effects on our GDP, labor
force growth and participation rate, national income, and consumer spending.”</p>
<p>We have that right now.</p>
<p>What is the answer for the long-term? It’s pretty clear that short-term thinking isn’t working. Yes, adjustments are painful but are we heading in the right direction or the wrong direction?</p>
<p>Epiphany, we all recognize the economic and social burden that may come with 12 million illegal immigrants. The real question is what we can do to move forward with an effective and humane policy. Deporting them would require “finding” them first, which I don’t see how we can do it effectively without incurring a huge expense. Moreover, we have to consider legal issues so that legal immigrants or businesses are not unduly harrassed. For all these reasons, it would make sense, at least to me, that we should consider a policy that grants working permits to unskilled labor as well.</p>
<p>“I do, however, find your continuing insistence that you or a number of posters you enlist DO know better --much better-- based on superior understanding of the issues or … deeper personal experiences.”</p>
<p>I never said nor implied that. You have read conclusions into my statements. However, it’s also clear that at least 2 posters on this thread speak from very limited real-world experience & BY THEIR OWN STATEMENTS revealed ignorance about <em>certain</em> aspects of illegal immigration – such as lifestyles, such as the extent of the use of public services, such as the critical level of population centers, & the results thereof. I never claimed nor implied that I am “superior.” But what I notice on several threads is that when people disagree with one of your favorite positions, you accuse them (not just me) of acting superior or claiming superior knowledge, or imply that they are doing so. I have additional, pertinent knowledge which is as relevant as statistics, & which specifically addressed questions Caleno had & misstatements lillybloom made. You are not some independent authority on immigration & its impact. You may have, like me, additional helpful experience, but your experience is modified by the experience of many other people, on and off cc.</p>
<p>So I just as validly call <em>you</em> as I see <em>you</em> – most especially in your previous very arrogant and off-putting post.</p>
<p>“Deporting them would require “finding” them first, which I don’t see how we can do it effectively without incurring a huge expense.”</p>
<p>I fail to understand why you also, padad, continue to criticize points I have no ownership for. I am not a pro-deportation person. Never once on this thread or elsewhere on CC have I ever mentioned this.</p>
<p>So, I’ll say to you & to xiggi & to anyone else, Yes, Get Your Facts Straight. (Not just about the fiscal & social impact of uncontrolled immigration, but regarding what other posters say & what they do not say.)</p>
<p>epiphany, sorry. my mistake.</p>
<p>apology accepted. :)</p>
<p>Folks- I think Xiggi’s postings have helped clarify a lot of my thinking, and accordingly I’m signing off this thread. Many thanks for letting me join in. Apologies to those who thought me lazy about research, but I always thought it more important to figure out what the questions were before asserting what might be only marginally relevant facts and getting hung up on ardently believed but at best only anecdotal evidence. Thanks to those who shared their research with me. Most especially thanks to Xiggi for sharing her analysis, giving helpful direction, and sharing some especially relevant literature.</p>
<p>There is too much focus placed on the illegal immigrants and not on the employers who are making the situation. Americans refuse to do many of the jobs that the illegals are doing because the pay, conditions and security of the jobs are attractive to them. They are often times illegal as well. As I have said before, I live a mile from a work pick up point. The men who wait around there are nearly all Hispanic. They wait for trucks and cars to come by with offers of work. There are no taxes or SS withheld and no promise of future work, benefits, safety conditions, etc. This is not a situation to be encouraged. Looks like prostitution to me, and just like it, the johns are not the ones prosecuted.</p>
<p>“There is too much focus placed on the illegal immigrants and not on the employers who are making the situation.”</p>
<p>I definitely agree with that. Indirectly, those same employers are causing the impact on social services, and further, the root causes are essentially in Mexico.</p>
<p>I always thought it was interesting to read “Nickel and Dimed” by Barbara Ehrenreich (sp?). Some of the places she visited did have a lot of illegal immigrants, but other places, most notably Maine, did not. The cleaning businesses, farm working, etc. were manned by blue collar whites for the most part. In a state that doesn’t have much immigration into unlike FL, TX, or CA, the jobs are still filled, just by the working class white.</p>
<p>I have noticed that too. Whenever we travel in the rural midwest and parts of the south those types of jobs are still done by whites or blacks depending on the area. I still get shocked to see a white US born maid.</p>
<p>When my college D came home to CA from Boston, one of the differences she remarked upon first was that the labor jobs in Boston were being done by white people. Granted, who knows if they were American, but FWIW the same jobs being done by Mexican immigrants in CA are apparently attractive to white workers in Boston.</p>
<p>Just saw this.</p>
<p>[13-year-old</a> girl raped by more than a dozen illegal aliens in Texas - National Immigration Reform | Examiner.com](<a href=“http://www.examiner.com/article/more-than-a-dozen-illegal-aliens-gang-raped-13-year-old-girl-texas]13-year-old”>http://www.examiner.com/article/more-than-a-dozen-illegal-aliens-gang-raped-13-year-old-girl-texas)</p>
<p>You seriously revived a FIVE year old (or more) thread to post this? </p>
<p>Want to know see how many stories I can link about perfectly legal Americans doing heinous things? Including, but not limited to, gang rape.</p>