what is bob jones university?!

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<p>I’m not going to bother to respond to the meat of your post. I am going to focus on your last paragraph, where apparently you’ve decided it’s okay to claim I’ve said stuff that I haven’t said and say something that could be considered a personal attack.</p>

<p>Please, learn to read.</p>

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<p>Excuse me? Let’s go over some of the LIES you said about me.</p>

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<li>“great evil empire”? Thanks for making up stuff that I didn’t say.</li>
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<p>Just because somebody is critical over decisions America ALONG WITH THE WESTERN WORLD (read my post before assuming I’m singling out America!) made, it does not mean they are in any way implying that we are a great evil empire.</p>

<p>The Western World has done some bad stuff in the middle east that provoked the terrorists; that’s all I said.</p>

<p>So stop distorting people’s words, and learn to READ before you POST!</p>

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<li>I am not trying to “demonize” America. I am not trying to demonize anything! People, civilizations, and and hemispheres of the globe (aka, the Western World) sometimes do things that are BAD! That does not make them a demon. Even Desdemona had a tragic flaw in Othello. (or is Shakespeare considereded evil by your beliefs?) If I point out her mistakes, her flaws, I am not demonizing her! I am simply saying she did something wrong.</li>
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<p>It’s called criticism, and there’s been a lot of criticism expressed in this thread both towards you and by you. Are these posters trying to demonize you? Are you trying to demonize muslims? I would hope the answers to both those questions are no, though I have not read every detail of this thread so I can’t say for sure.</p>

<p>I have not tried to demonize anything, so don’t say that I am…in fact, that’s the point of my whole post: that nobody is a demon. The terrorists aren’t and the USA is not…but they’ve both done bad stuff. Now I personally believe the terrorists are FAR WORSE than the USA because they stand for chaos, they are anti-democracy, they are against diversity, they are against freedom of speech, and they stand for a religious fundamentalism far worse than anything Bob Jones could muster up. But, when comparing the individual acts of Hiroshima and 9/11, I consider Hiroshima worse. 9/11 had 3,000 tragic deaths. Hiroshima had 80,000 tragic deaths and a massive nuclear fallout that plagued planet earth. So yes, I consider Hiroshima worse, even if it saved thousands or millions lives, because regardless of the circumstances, the individual act of Hiroshima was destructive and violent and in my opinion wrong.</p>

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<li>Your last sentence shows EXACTLY what is wrong with the Christian extremists that attend Bob Jones University: If somebody says or does something you don’t like, instead of attacking what they said or what they did, you attack their loyalties. That’s a low hand blow that I haven’t even done to you in this thread, though I believe I could make a pretty good case by suggesting you would sacrifice this country for God if you felt it was necessary. It’s God before country for you, right? Well for me, it’s country and the American ideals before all else.</li>
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<p>Anyways, let’s for a moment take a look at PRECISELY what you said, because there is a terrible FLAW IN YOUR LOGIC!!!</p>

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<p>So you’re saying that I don’t support America because I believe 80,000 is worse than 3,000 regardless of the circumstances? You’re saying that I don’t support America because I believe something different from you?</p>

<p>Not only is my belief that Hiroshima was worse than 9/11 an ad hominem to my loyalty to this country (ad hominem essentially means irrelevant) but your assertion is an attack against my loyalty that I think is totally uncalled for.</p>

<p>I do support America. I think Hiroshima was the one of the worst crimes of the century regardless of the circumstances. I would venture to say only the Holocaust and other examples of genocide were worse. I don’t think our affairs in the Middle East is right. But I do still support America’s ideals, its beliefs, its creation, what it stands for, and so much more.</p>

<p>I live in this country, and I actually CARE about things like freedom of religion or freedom of speech, evidently unlike you. You have questioned my loyalty to the country because of my expression of a critical opinion. That goes against freedom of speech. That kind of attitude is what is stripping away the rights of the individual in this country. You have suggested in this thread that the majority of Mulsims are violent. That goes against freedom of religion. That kind of attitude is stripping away the rights of the individual in this country.</p>

<p>In case you can’t tell, I am a staunch supporter of freedom of speech and the Bill of Rights. You may notice that I have NOT told you to shut up like some others in this thread, but have merely suggested you stop talking for your own good, as you are only making a fool out of yourself. That’s because I believe in freedom of speech, and therefore I believe you have every right to make a fool out of yourself in this thread.</p>

<p>Think about it: I make sure to stick to my country’s belief in freedom of speech despite ALL the stuff you’ve been saying. But when I say something you disagree with, you make the assertion that my freedom of speech goes against my country, my homeland, and freedom itself.</p>

<p>I find that to be a personal insult against me, and I don’t like it.</p>

<p>All this time, you’ve probably been wondering why I so adamently dislike Bob Jones University. You want to know why people like me don’t like Christian fundies and why people like me hate on Bob Jones University and mock its rules? It’s because their attitude is stripping away the rights of the individual in this country, and EVERYTHING that this country has stood for. The religious extermists in this country hold beliefs that go against the Bill of Rights. It is because of my loyalty to this country and my belief in freedom of religion, separation of church and state, and freedom of speech that I dislike Bob Jones University and will mock them forever.</p>

<p>I have now made my points beyond clear…I don’t want to bother with this thread anymore. Chuck, you can now tell all the lies you want about me. You can now twist my words as much as you like. I have been so offended that I will excercise my freedom of action and choose not to open this thread ever again. I will therefore not reply, so you will have no problem talking up whatever you want about me. But that is only because I expect anyone else who bothers to read this thread in full will see that you’ve made yourself look like an idiot.</p>

<p>However, I would appreciate a PM from you that is giving an apology for the insult that offended me.</p>

<p>That is all.</p>

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<p>Ahm, confused_student?</p>

<p>Just in case you’re still hanging around, I thought I might offer a few words of … what? … comfort? Encouragement? I’m not sure. Maybe just a little perspective.</p>

<p>Chuck sucked you in. He did it with straw man arguments. When Chuck makes a Korzybskian “allness” statement, he says “Oh, I didn’t really MEAN that.” But when you don’t make one, he makes one up for you. It’s called a “straw man.” He gets to make up an argument you didn’t make, and then he gets to knock it down. Naturally, that is galling, especially since so few people are well enough educated to recognize what he’s doing and give him the ridicule he deserves for it.</p>

<p>You’re never going to be able to reason with Chuck, because Chuck is an “ist” following an “ism.” Ists who follow isms (to differentiate them from ists who don’t follow an ism), by their very nature, reject any data or any rational argument that doesn’t fit well with a “truth” they have already placed beneath the oculis of their pantheons. They then resort to allness statements, straw men, false dialogues, or what have you to avoid actual useful discussions because, to them, a useful discussion is very dangerous. It might change their world views, and that is very frightening to all of us, but especially frightening to ists.</p>

<p>Chuck’s attempts at rationality also include the “I’m better than you” approach to argument as embodied in his statement of credentials. It turns out that Chuck graduated from the University of Kentucky with distinction. Now, how could any of us possibly compete with that? If challenged on the legitimacy of such a credential, it’s common for people with Chuck’s personality traits to launch into how they were accepted at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, et. al., but decided to attend other schools. It never ends.</p>

<p>The most important thing you need to know about Chuck is that virtually none of the behavior or the opinons he has evidenced here could have possibly come from Jesus of Nazareth as he has been portrayed to us in the gospels. Chuck, of course, will disagree and point to JoN’s less gentle moments, such as his behavior in the Temple at that final Passover. That’s common among the pseudo-Christians. They can always find an exception to the common rule of JoN’s life to justify their decidedly un-Christian behavior. Or, they’ll just say “Christianity isn’t about being perfect,” the implication being that a Christian can rape and murder entire neighborhoods and still be a Christian because, of course, they’re not perfect.</p>

<p>So, you’re stuck. You’re up against an old-fashioned ist. It doesn’t matter what they’re attached to. It could be Yahweh, Allah, the historical dialectic, fraterite, egalite, racial purity, or even the infallible hand of the marketplace. In all cases, their minds cannot be changed because they have discovered the one central truth of existence, and they will cling to it desperately in the teeth of any contrary gale that blows their way.</p>

<p>We can’t change these people. All we can do is defend ourselves from them. And, rest assured, there will come a time when we will have to defend ourselves. History is very clear on this. Defense is always necessary at some point. It’s just a matter of when.</p>

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<p>W Bush saved his campaign with his speech at BJU in 2000.</p>

<p>Jesus wept.</p>

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<p>I read up on this university and I wanted to cry… actually I did, and I got nauseous and felt like I wanted to throw up. Are you serious that God wants this crap… I guess I’m going to hell because I DO work at Abercrombie and Fitch and most of my clothes are Hollister… I mean come on, lets be realistic, lets CELEBRATE diversity. omg.</p>

<p>so has anyone ever called or e-mailed them and told them how terrible they are? because i am exactly the type of person to do that.</p>

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<p>^^ I’d rather just leave them alone. As long as they aren’t affecting me, I’m fine.</p>

<p>Further, BJU’s rules are based on the Bible, which also says that modifying or ignoring parts of the scripture is a direct sin. So yes, according to the Bible, that is what God wants. =) In any case, few take the Bible that literally (even though it states one must do so), and those that do are called ‘fundamentalists’ or simply ‘fundies.’</p>

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<p>watched a great program last night on the bible…wish people that based their whole lives and schools on it would learn about the sources of the bible…</p>

<p>and some things, when convienient they take literally, and other things they take more losely</p>

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<p>amen, tarhunt (no pun intended) - I’ve had so many arguments where the “ists” do their best to put words in my mouth, and argue based on that. My limited experience has also tought my just how irrational these people are. They avoid direct arguments and statements, always plunge into unknowns and pick on my own uncertainties instead of justifying their own arguments.</p>

<p>Well worded, I applaud you.</p>

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<p>idk. they seem crazy. i’m a christian, but at my church, it’s def not that strict, some ppl in my family are fundamentalist and they aren’t that strict either. you would get expelled for watching the lion king? seriously, i know nowhere in the bible does it say anything about that. i think those ppl are gonna be in for a surprise when they get to heaven. on wikipedia they sent a letter to Bush and said, “the liberals hate your Christ.” ***. that offends me. that’s why i want to call. i’m liberal, and i don’t care if ur republican that’s your deal, but when you bring religion into liberals and conservatives and you “say” the liberals hate your Christ… well, i’m liberal and I LOVE Jesus, so bob jones needs to stop making assumptions. this school OFFENDS me because it places stereotypes when God says that he loves all his children the same no matter if they are sinners or not. I even asked my sunday school teacher if God gives “brownie points” and well… I’m sure if you put your entire life for him… maybe, but she said he loves everyone the same, and this university doesn’t apparently. well, i think they lost government funding or something from the government because of their strict rules so i guess that is enough punishment… but seriously… this is the 21st century, it’s crazy. IT MAKES ME REALLY SAD too. To them I must be a devil worshiper. blah, blah. blah.</p>

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<p>Confused- I am relieved to hear you hold the American Ideals dear to your heart. You have certain beliefs as do i. They just are not the same. I can accept that, except for when the liberal elites are intolerant to dissenting opinions or beliefs. That is what we have seen in this thread. That they think they know better, are more intellectual, and basically better human beings than those that hold those beliefs. </p>

<p>I did not say that you dont support America. You made it evident you dont completely. I merely said that with these statements you made and beliefs on things like Hiroshima that you MAY have loyalties elsewhere. You made it clear you are loyal to America. Just remember those freedoms you hold dear also apply to BJU and its students and supporters. That was the reason we are hear. The attacks against them were made without an understanding of why they believe the way they do. I hoped to offer a different perspective and thus got dragged into this debate. The intolerance is incredible and I wish others would follow your lead in recognizing their right to believe the way they do. They are threatening your ideals and beliefs in your eyes the same as you are doing the same in their eyes. </p>

<p>If my questioning of your loyalties offended you then I do apologize for that. I do not consider myself an idiot, maybe not the most intellectual or versed individual but not an idiot as you claim. I wouldnt lie about you either. That implies I am not honorable and I take offense to that. Maybe I deserve an apology as well. I am conservative which in itself would make me an idiot in the eyes of those who think they are above the rest of society with their liberal ideals and intellectuality. Of course I am sure those here feel the same about the PERCEIVED holier than though attitude of the Christian Fundamentalist. Both sides need to learn to co-exist and not try to shove their beliefs down the throats of others. Your post was refreshing to me. I am glad to know that although we have some differing opinions we are basically on the same side. This is another debate but i am glad you believe in the Bill of Rights, how do you feel about the 2nd Amendment? LOL</p>

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<p>“That was the reason we are hear.”</p>

<p>The grammar police have arrived… hear should be here</p>

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<p>You elite liberals with your “grammar” rules. Phh</p>

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<p>Tarhunt-
Interesting post. I think you give me way to much credit. I really didnt try to do any of the things you claim. I would like to debate based on the merits and facts but when I just get attacked with name calling it doesnt lead to much credible debate. Pretty much as you have done in this post. It is a direct attempt to discredit anything I said instead of debating merits or facts. As far as you claiming I think i am better than others because I went to UK is one of those deceptions to discredit. I in no way intended for it to come across that way, but instead, in fact i did say that was to lend credibility to the idea i have seen both sides of this issue and had some insight as to why they have the rules they have. You failed to mention that I also claimed to attend a similar school in Indiana for one semester. I debated most of these same rules in my church, high school, and college. And as i said although I dont agree with them I understand them. </p>

<p>I also have to ad that I do try to have an open mind. Can those that ridiculed, attacked, name called and discredited with half truths say the same. When given the evidence I asked for regarding Muslim denouncement of the violence I went to the link and spent a couple hours reading their own web page. I fully expected to find that evidence but instead my reading created more questions than they answered. Questions I asked that went unanswered. I contend that although you claim I will not engage in substantive debate

i have to say that i wasnt presented with much except how much a wacko, nutjob, psychotic, “ist”, and liar I am. </p>

<p>Tarhunt, I have to commend you for you are an educated and articulate individual. Much more so than I am. Its a shame it is used in this manner. Instead of engaging in civil debate you choose to use it in an attempt to discredit everything i say. I suppose that is the only thing you can do. You also say that I follow and “ism”. I think you missed this whole thing so I will say it again. I dont support BJU or follow what they teach completely. I only understand it and know what its based on because I was involved in it for a period of time , at the same time I do not denounce everything they believe. So labeling me as a follower, with intent to discredit, is not true. </p>

<p>As far as having to defend yourself against those like me I have to say you have no worries here. (Another implication in an attempt to demonize and discredit the opposition?) I will not try to make you believe as me in any way other than simple persuasion and debate. I will expect the same in return.</p>

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<p>Is that the only one you could find? I would surprised if it were.</p>

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<p>Chuck said:</p>

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<p>One more example of Chuck’s pseudo-Christian status. Jesus of Nazareth said, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God what is God’s.” He also said that he would not change a jot or tittle of the Law (the Law being those laid out in the Torah, or Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament). There are over 600 laws, but the most important are the BIG 10 (not the athletic conference), also called the Ten Commandments.</p>

<p>Chuck has managed to break the first three (note that there are two versions of the Ten Commandments, but the first three are essentially the same).</p>

<p>Exodus 20: 2-17 has the entire list.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>You shall have no other gods before me. </p></li>
<li><p>You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. </p></li>
<li><p>You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. </p></li>
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<p>The pseudos are quite often uber nationalists. That’s one way to tell that they’re pseudos. They have made the nation, and its embodiment, the flag, into an image that they put before God. They bow down to the flag and worship it. That’s why Chuck gets so bent out of shape because you don’t “support” the US “completely,” meaning giving your highest loyalty to the nation rather than to your god.</p>

<p>Paul Tillich, perhaps the greatest theologian of the modern era (impenetrable as he sometimes is), postulated that anyone’s real god was fairly easy to identify: it is a person’s “ultimate concern.” Many pseudos make their ultimate concern their nations, embodied in their flags. They put this before the god they claim to worship, in the form of an image, or idol.</p>

<p>Chuck renders unto Caesar what is God’s.</p>

<p>Chuck also said:</p>

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<p>This statement is stock in trade for the pseudos. It plays well to the American populist streak that produces popular words such as “nerd,” “wonk,” “egghead,” “bookworm,” the ever-inflammatory “elite,” and the like. The implication is that those who actually study and learn things are somehow defective; that it is really those who simply KNOW things, without having to gather data, who are the best “sort” of people. By his reasoning, Chuck is morally superior to others who actually do research and try to learn.</p>

<p>The interesting thing is that I have been back over this thread, and I have not found people expressing anything like an assertion that they think they are “basically better human beings” (in Chuck’s words) than anyone else … with ONE exception: Our good friend Chuck. Chuck made a point of telling us that he graduated from the University of Kentucky with DISTINCTION. The implication, of course, is that this somehow makes him superior to the rest of us. After all, I can say with absolute certainty that I did not graduate from the University of Kentucky with DISTINCTION. That would certainly make Chuck one of the “elites,” and me a simple man; one who didn’t graduate from the University of Kentucky with DISTINCTION.</p>

<p>All in all, this thread has been a truly wonderful example of pseudo-Christianity in action.</p>

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<p>*be suprised</p>

<p>I had to - carry on</p>

<p>chuck (well anyone really) - how do u know the Bible is even right? I mean what evidence does it offer as proof? And some overruling, overbearing god - did you find him yourself or did someone ingrain him in your impressionable mind (as a youth)?</p>

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<p>You construct STRAW MAN arguments and then <em>gasp</em> <em>choke</em> <em>gurgle</em> say you’re taking the HIGH ROAD!!! Straw man arguments are just about the slimiest, most underhanded, most dishonest debating tactics known since they were first identified about 2400 years ago.</p>

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<p>Oh no, Chuck. History is very, very clear on this. Every time the ists obtain coercive power, they use it to oppress others, even to the point of torture and mass murder. All that stands between us in the US and people who think like you is a very thin piece of paper, born of the Enlightenment, that has no power of it own. Its power rests entirely in an idea as insubstantial and fragile as spun sugar in one’s hand. I doubt it will hold out much longer.</p>

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<p>Actually, this is just hypocritical. Next to your moniker it says you attend NYU, if hypothetically I made a thread bashing the lifestyle choices of homosexuals at NYU it would likely offend alot of people on these boards. But for some reason it seems acceptable to bash religious schools who prefer to living according to the bible. Students should be allowed to make the lifestyle choice of wearing conservative clothes, engaging in prayer groups, etc. if this is how they will find happiness in life. Liberals often claim to be open-minded but there are very few posts of tolerance in this thread. Live and let live.</p>

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<p>Tarhunt- you are really reaching arent you and really trying your hardest to lead those that read this to believe Christians are not really sincere in their faith. You misquoted the verse “render unto Cesar what is Cesars”. That really applies to taxes and tithes, not as you have portrayed. You are really stretching hard to undermine the Christians in America. Arent you the one who said previously you didnt know one REAL Christian? Does this come from an underlying belief you have that is contrary to Christian doctrine and the reason for your attacks against those that claim to believe it. This would also explain your involvement in the trash BJU thread. </p>

<p>Funny you said this. The other day while at the UK/Tennessee basketball game while holding my hand over my heart during the national anthem I wondered to myself if that act would be considered as idolatry by God. I suppose it could be argued it could. Good thing is that although it is desired by God for us to follow his commandments it is not a condition of salvation. Those were laws of the old testament and are more applicable to Jews then than they are to us today. Not to say we cant use them as a good guide by which to lead your life today. </p>

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<p>Is that the best you can do? This is like a kid replying " no you are". You are very good in your writing but no matter how much you articulate thats all it comes down to. I said you are an Elitist intellectual who thinks they are better than the average person and you reply is , NO You Are! My contention is evident. You discredit anybody who doesnt hold the same level of education or intellectual status as you do. </p>

<p>Your repeating the fact I mentioned I graduated from UK with distinction is cheap and really pulling it out of context. It was meant to show that while I struggled in a school with similar beliefs as BJU and had enough demerits to get kicked out twice I was able to well at a public school. It was done for comparison. I know your really using it to make fun of my degree from UK. I know most people on this forum have graduated from, are attending or aspire to attend institutions with much better academics than UK so in no way would i use that as a way to claim I am better then they. That is utterly ridiculous and another attempt to discredit me by making things up. Its the elitist in you that forces you to attack me by making fun or light of my credentials. </p>

<p>Do you want to debate an issue or do you want to continue to attack me in order to undermine any arguments I would make regarding an issue? Its sort of like a dirty fighter.</p>

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<p>You are paranoid. I would not be involved in anything like this, in fact I would be in the trenches fighting against it with you. Just like the executive order in Texas that requires all girls to get a vaccination. I dont care if its proven to work and is a good thing. It shouldnt be forced upon us. I expect that will be shot down in a court soon. Same thing goes for Evolution being taught in schools. I have no problem with it as long as its taught as a theory along side of creationism. To be honest we cant prove without doubt one way or the other which is true. The liberals have forced on us evolution and have tried to legislate against creationism. (Its a different issue and I am not trying to take this thread into that debate.) I use it as an example. Just as you have described is your fear about Christians I see this as an effort to undermine the belief in God in society by the Elite Liberal Intellectuals(ELI) and force their beliefs on us. Dont worry, although I perceive that the efforts to force these liberal beliefs on us are failing, we will maintain your right to believe as you do. I believe we have come to the crux of your position and the reason for the tactics used.</p>

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<p>Why creationism? Why not my theory - that I made everything in 5 days. Yea, even god can’t beat that. I have two days of sabbath too - sat and sun. Leisure ftw! Its what I believe and I have faith that I am right, so I demand my theory be taught in all public schools!</p>

<p>Evolution, however, is a science and can clearly be proven to any open-minded person. There are a number of methods where a biologist can culture bacteria and have them change fundamental traits according to the envoirnment. This can be done in a matter of days.</p>

<p>Evolution is taught in science courses. Creationism is for Sunday school.</p>