what is bob jones university?!

chuckdvc · February 4, 2007, 6:07pm

They are not being forced to go there, dont feel sorry for them. Please dont make fun of what they believe since it is not effecting you or adversely effecting society unless of course you want more minds indoctrinated with a liberal philosophy and want to ban these types of schools. Liberals cry that the conservatives are not being accepting of their values or lifestyles. Same thing in this thread but the shoes on the other foot.

redknight · February 4, 2007, 8:01pm

Actually, when states pass constitutional amendments to ban same-sex marriage, take away anti-discrimination laws, ban the teaching of evolution, and/or take away a women’s right to medical privacy, it adversely affects many of us.

And the fact you used loaded language like “indoctrinate” and used “liberal” in the pejorative sense (granted, so to have many other (equally wrong) people in this thread), means that you should take your own advice, friend.

But this isn’t a political forum, it’s a college one.

chuckdvc · February 4, 2007, 8:52pm

Then may I ask why you chose to make it a political forum yourself?

We can argue about the terminology you used as being loaded itself. We can also argue about the issues adversely or positively effecting society. At least the Muslim thread was started as a result of a comment supposedly made by the president of the school in the thread title. It could be argued that since these issues are at the core of the value and beliefs of the institution in question it would all be on topic. So if you choose we can engage in further debate.

I wasnt aware Bob Jones or similar schools representing such a small percentage of wackos had so much control over our legislative process. Maybe its not just a religious issue as some would lead us to believe. Maybe its just common sense.

Again I saw this school being attacked and being made fun of by those with no idea of what they were talking about. So I defended it and tried to shed some light on the reasons they believe the way they do.

surfette · February 4, 2007, 9:02pm

I’m glad you decided to share your reasoning for the unique beliefs of Bob Jones.

I am now reassured that the school and its supporters are more than a little psychotic.

kyledavid80 · February 4, 2007, 10:08pm

^^ lol, agreed.

Tarhunt · February 4, 2007, 10:19pm

You’re right, Chuck, a bigot is:

The key word here, of course, is “group.” I’ve gone on record in this thread as saying that I have nothing against Christians. I like Christians. If there were more Christians, the world would be a much better place. The problem is, I’ve never met a real one. I’ve met a lot of pseudo-Christians, but never a real one. I suspect they exist, albeit in small numbers. I’d like to meet some of the Amish. They strike me as being the real thing, but I’d need to get to know some of the Amish to find out for sure.

I admit that I don’t like or trust pseudo-Christians. I don’t trust convicted felons. I don’t trust e-mails from Nigeria offering me free money for very little work. I don’t like or trust phonies. I’m guilty of a prejudice against them. No contest.

You, on the other hand Chuck, have made these assertions:

Really? Muslims, MOST Muslims, are the cause of violence in the world? So, most criminals in the US, China, Europe, Russia, and South America are Muslim? Really? Do you have any evidence for that? The North Koreans are Muslims? Really? The Shining Path? The ELN? Pat Robertson’s favorite Charles Taylor? UNITA? The NPA?

An OVERWHELMING majority! Really? That would be more that 700 MILLION Muslims! And you can … divine … all that from a few television images taken in particularly volatile areas and put on television in the first place because they would attract an audience and SELL advertising time!!! How many different Muslims did you see in those videos? A few hundred different ones? And how do you know they were Muslims? Because they’re … er … brown?

I think your hatred and intolerance of a GROUP is rather self-evident.

I did a google search and came up with pages of denunciations from Islamic leaders, along with a whole bunch of people complaining that the Muslims don’t denounce violence. You see, Chuck, TV doesn’t show everything there is to show. TV isn’t ACTUALLY reality. I know this comes as a shock, but try to let it sink in. TV thrives on viewership. Some boring story on some unknown Islamic cleric who denounces violence doesn’t sell. It doesn’t sell newspapers either, for that matter. TV is why the average American was convinced that crime in the US is increasing while, in fact, it decreased for many years. TV, by its nature, distorts reality. You’ll have to do some actual reading and research to get at the truth.

So, here we get to the crux of the matter. There is something inherently wrong with Islam (or MUSLIM as you, the distinguished scholar from the University of Kentucky would have it) that is not wrong with Christianity.

Well, let’s take a look at some of what the New Testament says, shall we?

“Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword” (Matt. 10:34),

“He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36),

“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” (Luke 19:27).

Sounds pretty warlike to me. Doesn’t it to you? Now, pseudo-Christians will point out that there are many, many other peaceful quotations from Jesus (not that they actually follow them, mind you). And they are right. They also wrap the warlike quotes in a blanket of theology, explaining them away in one way or another. Any Pseudo worth his salt, for instance, will point out that the last quote is done in a parable, but leave out that the action is considered in a favorable light. What he won’t do (and Chuck won’t do) is to point out that the more controversial parts of the Koran are also wrapped in theology. And this is the essence of their deception: They insist on taking words from the Koran (sometimes badly translated) and make those absolute, while taking words from the Bible and explaining how they don’t REALLY mean what they say.

For instance, let’s take this quote:

(For those of you who aren’t up on Christian theology, this refers to the fact that Jesus did not mean to change underlying Jewish law. Now, Christian theology disputes this. This is because much of underlying Jewish law is … inconvenient. The Greco/Roman men, for instance, were very reluctant to be circumcised. Paul, the first Christian theologian, and writer of much of the New Testament, being the relentless promoter he was, managed to get the rules dropped for non-Jews. It was a sales necessity.)

So, if not an iota, or dot, is to be changed (or if you prefer a different translation, a “jot or tittle,”) let’s take a look at some Jewish laws that should apply to Christians. This, of course, assumes you worship Jesus Christ instead of Paul. Most Pseudos are Paulists.

Money cannot be lent at interest to your brother, only to foreigners (Deut. 23:19-20);

Eating pork is forbidden (Deut. 14:8);

A man must marry and have relations with his dead brother’s wife (Deut. 25:5-6);

A raped, unengaged virgin must marry her rapist and they can never divorce (Deut. 22:28-29);

Trials for adultery are to be by ordeal (Num. 5:28-29);

Beards can’t be rounded (Lev. 19:27);

A newly married man can’t go to war or be charged with business for one year (Deut. 24:5);

One’s nation can lend to other nations but not borrow from them (Deut. 15:6);

Bastards can’t enter the Lord’s congregation (Deut. 23:2);

The following offenses carry the death penalty:

(a) striking your father or mother (Ex.21:15);
(b) kidnapping (Ex. 21:6 RSV);
(c) cursing your father or mother (Ex. 21:17 RSV, Lev. 20:9);
(d) touching a mountain (Ex. 19:12 RSV);
(e) allowing your ox to gore someone (Ex. 21:29);
(f) lying with a beast (Ex. 22:19) RSV, Lev. 20:15-16);
(g) sacrificing to other gods (Ex. 22:20 RSV);
(h) failing to observe the Sabbath (Ex. 31:14-15);
(i) drinking strong drinks while in the tabernacle (Lev. 10:9);
(j) committing adultery (Lev. 20:10 RSV, Deut. 22:22);
(k) lying with your father’s wife (Lev. 20:11 RSV);
(l) lying with your daughter-in-law (Lev. 20:12 RSV);
(m) committing homosexual acts (Lev. 20:13 RSV);
(n) being a medium or a wizard (Lev. 20:27 RSV);
(o) being a witch (Ex. 22:18);
(p) being a priest’s daughter and becoming a whore (Lev. 21:9 RSV);
(q) Blaspheming the name of the Lord (Lev. 24:16);
cursing (Lev. 24:14 RSV);
(s) coming near the priesthood (Num. 3:10);
(t) being a stranger who comes near the congregation’s tabernacle (Num. 3:38);
(u) gathering sticks on the Sabbath (Num. 15:32-35);
(v) serving or worshipping other gods (Deut. 17:2-5 RSV);
(w) showing contempt for the Lord’s priest or judge (Deut. 17:12 NIV);
(x) failing to obey one’s parents (Deut. 21:18-21);
(y) not being a virgin on your wedding day (Deut. 22:20-21 NIV);
(z) being a betrothed virgin who did not cry out when seduced (Deut. 22:23-24);
(aa) having relations with your wife and her mother (Lev. 20:14);
(bb) telling people to seek other gods (Deut. 13:2,5); and
(cc) being a false prophet (Deut. 18:20

Yahweh himself hardly comes off all that well. We’re talking about a pretty bloodthirsty son of a gun, here. For instance:

“So Joshua smote all the country of the hills…he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded” (Joshua 10:40).

“As I listened, God said to the others, 'Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children…” (Ezek. 9:5-6).

“And the Lord sent you on a mission, saying ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.’” (1 Sam. 15:18).

“Attack the land of Merathaim and those who live in Pekod. Pursue, kill and completely destroy them’ declares the Lord. Do everything I have commanded you” (Jer. 50:21).

“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys” (1 Sam. 15:3).

Yahweh also demands human sacrifice:

Ex. 22:29-30 says, “Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for 7 days, but give them to me on the 8th day.”

Lev. 27:28-29 says, “Nothing that a man owns and devotes to the Lord–whether man or animal or family land–may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the Lord. No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; he must be put to death.”

Ezek. 20:26, says, “I let them become defiled through their gifts–the sacrifice of every firstborn–that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.”

And Yahweh is perfectly OK with slavery. You can look at the 25th chapter of Leviticus for the permit to own slaves, and the 27th for the prices.

But all of this can be explained away by the Pseudos while they deliberately ignore Islamic theology that just as conveniently explains how Dar es Islam and Dar es Jihad represent spiritual worlds and personal and spiritual struggles. It’s a deliberate deception, a sort of “Let’s deceive for Christ” approach to the world.

aquamarinee · February 4, 2007, 10:34pm

Hahaha.

Two words: Holy ****.

no offense or anything… but that is one odd place

kyledavid80 · February 4, 2007, 10:59pm

Very well-said, Tarhunt, but let’s not feed the ■■■■■ any longer.

cwatson · February 4, 2007, 11:05pm

Is this not child abuse? Just mental…?

chuckdvc · February 4, 2007, 11:45pm

You say you are prejudice against Pseudo-Christians but you also say that as far as you know all Christians are Pseudo because you have never met a real one. Yes you do qualify that by saying you are sure some exist but then imply they dont by saying you never met one. In other words you are saying without admitting it that you are prejudice against Christians and dont like them. And you justify that by saying they are all not real, or at least all the ones you have met are not real. Maybe now we can get at the root of why you believe the way you do. You are the real bigot. Thats why you choose to join the attack on this group of people for what they believe. It is amazing how you can actually be what you claim they are. Talk about the deceit!

I grant you that the Bible has content that is similar to the Qur’an in its violence against unbelievers or enemies. Although much of what you quoted was old testament jewish law. The Christian faith is based predominantly on the New Testament teaching of Jesus. The one big difference is that the Christian doesnt cause terror, killing innocent people, and use the Bible as a basis for it. They dont act on it or practice it today. What our government does can necessarily be said to be promoting the Christian theology. Instead our government promotes freedom of religion. In deep contrast to the actions of strictly Muslim countries which promote a single, government sanctioned,forced, religion. The differences are like night and day. I also in no way mean to claim that all Muslims do this either. I have to wonder why we dont see more separation of the “moderate” Muslim and the “radical” Muslim. From my perspective the moderate doesnt partake in the violence but does not denounce it either. I find it odd you did not provide links to at least some of all the denouncements you found. I have noticed that no Muslim who joined in on this debate denounced it either. Not that it proves anything, just an observation as is most of my postings.

Remember all this started when another poster claimed the president of BJU made statements against Muslims. I was only stating that based on what the Qur’an says and the obvious actions of individuals claiming to be Muslim, his statement has some merit. Then you and others try to make me out to be some Muslim hater. I have to admit I do have adverse feelings towards the radicals that take American lives but I have no adverse feelings towards the peaceful Muslim. I do have to admit that I do not know where the line between the moderate, moderate supporter, and radical is drawn. Guess I am as confused about that as those in this thread are confused about the beliefs of Christians.

To Surfette: Although I am not a supporter of BJU, I do think I understand them. Doesnt mean I wont defend them from the childish attacks they have been subject to. It dawned on me tonight I was arguing with a bunch of teenagers who think they know it all. I will ad psychotic to the list though. Anybody else have any names they want to ad?

superwizard · February 5, 2007, 12:27am

This is really getting ridiculous.

Oh so because a bunch of radical Muslims use the Quran as an excuse that makes Islam worse than Christianity? For your information more blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity than any other religion! I’m not saying Christianity is bad but radicals exist in all religions.

This truly shows your ignorance. In Islam you’re not supposed to force someone into any religion. Why it’s even in the Quran: “There shall be no coercion in religion”. What do you say of that? Go to Muslim countries and see the churches that are there as well as other temples of worship and then come back and tell me that the government forces you to have a specific religion.

‘Moderate’ Muslims have been denouncing violence for years now it’s just that you never hear about it. The US media only shows what people want to see and no one wants to hear about ‘moderate’ Muslims. They all want to hear about the small band of radicalists!

One other thing that you said was that most Muslims were dancing in the street when the twin towers fell. Well if you truly believe that you know nothing about the average Muslim. Were there some that were happy and glad? I don’t know because I (as a Muslim who lived in an Arab country) never met a single one. When the attacks happened no one I knew was happy everyone was saddened by the deaths of the Americans. It really is saddening that some Americans think that Muslims were happy when innocent civilians died.
Finally about the whole Quranic verse that you’re talking about let me just tell you that you’re quoting it out of context. Go to any learned Muslim scholar and ask him that verse doesn’t refer to all non Muslims and it never did. Please stop using it and get your facts straight.

a778999 · February 5, 2007, 12:44am

The worst university ever, with a cherry on top.

chuckdvc · February 5, 2007, 1:20am

Yeah it is and its going nowhere.

Are we talking about “throughout history” or current events? I dont have any hard numbers to rebut your claim either way but do you have any to support it?

I assume you claim in Islam you arent supposed to kill either but they do, in the name of Allah. Is that untrue? Are you going to claim that some countries do not sanction ISLAM as a state religion and require its practice? You can go back to one of my previous links where it talks about the issue.

Please go tell that to the radicals who are using those verses to justify their actions. And if the moderate Muslims are denouncing these terrorist acts please show me evidence of this. I would be relieved to know this is actually the case. Are you happy when American Soldiers die? Do you think we are there with the intention of instilling democracy and freedom for the people in Iraq and Afghanistan? I realize we have National security motivations as well but do you not agree we are honorable with our intentions and are basically a good people? Or do you think we are the great evil empire and the attacks on our country are justified? What Arab country are you from? Just curious. Your honest answers may help me understand Muslims and the Islam religion better.

superwizard · February 5, 2007, 1:38am

I am talking throughout history and unfortunately I do not have with me any source to support it. It matter little though I was just pointing out that much blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity as well.

I agree that some countries do but they are not following true Islam when they do that. I do not judge Christians or Christianity by what ‘Christian’ countries do so why should you do that for Islam?

My pleasure. In less than one minute I found this article: <a href=“http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545852)%5B/url%5D”>http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545852)</a>

I will quote some of the relevant parts here:

If you want more I can probably find more in a few minutes!

I am always saddened when young innocent men get killed. American soldiers are no exception. I personally think that the average soldier has good intentions and wishes to spread peace but alas I cannot believe that that was the US Government’s reason.

I’m originally from Lebanon but I lived 8 years in the UAE (where btw I had many Christian friends happily practicing Christianity).

The average man has nothing to do with politics. I condemn all attacks on civilians whether they happen in Iraq or the US.

Oh and btw I live in the US now.

chuckdvc · February 5, 2007, 3:19am

I have been doing some reading on the web page you linked.

I get coments such as this:

Vast majority of Muslims have nothing to do with such violence or bloodshed that may or may not have been committed by those who claim to be Muslims. According to the strict verdict of the Qur’an, taking life of a single human being unjustly is akin to taking the life of all humanity. A good Muslim, therefore, is one who believes in sanctity of all life. The Prophet, peace be upon him, taught us that if a person were to kill even a single little sparrow, it would appear before the Lord of the worlds seeking God’s justice against the person!” (Source: <a href=“http://www.islam.ca%5B/url%5D”>www.islam.ca</a>)

And answers to questions concerning a womans role in attacks like this-

As for the point that carrying out this operation may involve woman’s travel from place to another without a Mahram, we say that a woman can travel to perform Hajj in the company of other trustworthy women and without the presence of any Mahram as long as the road is safe and secured. Travel, nowadays, is no longer done through deserts or wilderness, instead, women can travel safely in trains or by air.

Concerning the point on Hijab, a woman can put on a hat or anything else to cover her hair. Even when necessary, she may take off her Hijab in order to carry out the operation, for she is going to die in the Cause of Allah and not to show off her beauty or uncover her hair. I don’t see any problem in her taking off Hijab in this case.

And

Now we move to the ‘offensive’ Jihad. In this kind of precautionary Jihad, Muslims march into the lands of the disbelievers in order to avoid the harm they may cause in the future, and to secure the Ummah from the disbelievers’ mischief. Muslims may resort to this Jihad to get through to the people in the non-Muslims lands to propagate Islam and convey to them its teachings. Further, Muslims may march into a non-Muslim territory to make it submit to the Islamic state and to the supremacy of the Islamic law which governs human life with its just legislation, and superior guidelines and instructions.

Conclusion

It all tells me Islam is in a battle amongst its own as to which way is the right way. So in effect we are both correct in our assertions depending on which sect is being referred to. I do see that there are many Muslims that advocate peace and denounce the violence such as 911. But at the same time those same Muslims and I assume yourself by your wording, believe attacks against the American Soldiers and civilians in Iraq is justified. Just as on the same web page the bombing of civilian targets in Palestine against the jews is advocated. Not as pretty of a picture as you and others had painted for us. But granted not as bad as I had envisioned. If we could only get those fighting the false Jihad in Iraq to back off long enough for the Iraq government to stabilize we would leave. Its like a catch 22 from what i have read. But it is likely its not Iraqis doing the fighting but Syrians and Iranians who have their own agenda for wanting it to fail.

chuckdvc · February 5, 2007, 3:30am

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Also during the 2000 Republican primary campaign in South Carolina, Richard Hand, a BJU professor, spread a false e-mail rumor that John McCain had fathered an illegitimate child.
The worst university ever, with a cherry on top.

Cant deny he did it, he didnt even try to cover it up. He never admitted it was a false rumor though. But i like John Mccain, hope he is the next president. This guy was wrong. Still you wouldnt want your favorite school, not saying BYU is mine, stereotyped from the actions of one person out of 5000+/-. Are you saying its the worst because of hard evidence and numbers showing the lack of education and quality of graduates or just because you dont agree with how they believe?

confused_student · February 5, 2007, 4:18am

Oh my…chuck, I must say that you are one funny guy.

I have come back to this little party late, but here is some stuff I want to say.

No, you are not correct, because prior to this you said the majority of muslims believed what the extremist sects believe. Just admit you are wrong about your perception of Muslims, that you have no clue what you are talking about, and move on.

And just a suggestion: I am a strong minded advocate for freedom of speech…but unless you feel like making yourself look like an idiot, I suggest you don’t open your trap about the religion of Islam ever again, because you clearly have no clue what you’re talking about and in the end make yourself look like an idiot, as you did here.

Hopefully, you’ve learned your lesson.

There have been many studies done by nonbiased groups which indicate that if there is a bias in TV News, it’s conservative. Newspapers and print and the web tend to have liberal bias, while TV and Radio have conservative.

Don’t believe me? Well, then you should probably watch CNN more…because I would like for you to explain to me why they have that psycho Lou Dobbs screaming about how illegal immigrants are destroying the country if they have such a liberal bias.

Please go back and study the history of the Middle East. I in no way justify violence like the attacks on 9/11…but it’s no secret: the Western World has given the Middle East the short hand in so many ways. We have bombed Iraq multiple times, as well as other Middle Eastern countries. We’ve taken oil from them at criminal prices. We’ve pushed them off their land, divided their countries, helped encourage dictators like Saddam and the Ayatollah, and much else. America is the power that leads the West now, so really it was pretty expected that the terrorists would eventually strike us…it was a tragedy and wrong in so many ways, but really we should have seen it coming.

Now, that being said, it is definitely fair to compare Hiroshima and 9/11, and I am aghast that you might even think Hiroshima was more justifiable than 9/1. 9/11 was terrible and horrific and never should have happened, but Hiroshima is by far the worst thing done to planet earth in its history, for the detonation of a nuclear bomb done by anyone is not okay ecologically, socially, politically, and not to mention the fact that it destroys thousands more lives than any terrorist attack thus far (hopefully things will stay that way).

Plus, do the simple math: 80,000 > 3,000. By a lot. But I’m pretty sure the Hiroshima statistics don’t include those who died of radiation and other horrific stuff, so it’s more like 100,000 > 3,000.

The only thing people have been intolerant towards you for is your words…not your beliefs, not your actions, but what you say out loud. If you say something stupid, people have the right to call you out on it. That’s why I, once again, strongly suggest you just close your mouth about anything relating to the Middle East and Islam.

Yeah okay. I think I’m done now…and I apologize for prolonging that tangent. Let’s go back to trashing Bob Jones please. :)

mochamaven · February 5, 2007, 9:46am

Oh, I see Chuck. 
Christians have neverrrr used the Bible to justify violent actions.

Maybe today, most Christians are peaceful. Turn the clock back even to the early-mid 1900s and the Nazis were indeed using parts of the Bible to justify the Holocaust. Are the Nazis representative of all Christians? Of course not. 
And you seem to underestimate the number of Muslims in the world. The “overwhelming majority” of a few thousand Muslims you saw on TV rejoicing were only a tiny sliver of the world’s Muslim population. Also, the media doesn’t give a flying f*** about the many Muslims who were upset about 9-11. They were probably sitting inside, shocked and upset, like most of my friends, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or Hindu. That doesn’t make for good news footage. The media sensationalizes, and what’s better than a small crowd waving guns and anti-American signs? 
Please don’t overgeneralize and be so quick to draw conclusions.

citygirlsmom · February 5, 2007, 10:12am

do a bit of research on the text books BJU publishes…God and Bible based science curriculum…

chuckdvc · February 5, 2007, 6:51pm

Mocha- Never said that. Dont imply I said something I didnt. I am not talking about ancient history. I guess you have to go back to it to make a point. I didnt draw a quick conclusion, it has been over 5 years, I wouldnt consider that quick.

Confused- The attacks were on BJU and their beliefs, they turned on me when I tried to defend and explain their beliefs. So your statement is not true.

I agree I should not have used the word majority since I have no way to really quantify it, nor do you. You and others pick on my word choice to try and discredit and draw attention away from the reality. I still contend it is more than a sliver who promote and support the radical actions based on the Qur’an. What I found in my reading last night on the web page supplied by a muslim here is that there are different sects of Islam, some radical, but at the same time I found the moderate muslims, if thats whats represented on that web page, support violence against an occupying force. In plain english they support violence against American Soldiers and citizens in Irag and Adghanistan. I dont see our forces over there as occupiers, its a ploy to draw support for Jihad. We are actually liberators trying to make life over there better and free. Problem is some muslims dont believe a free society is good for Islam. Its right on the islam web page. Yes I see there are different sects in Islam and see that Islam has much infighting and disagreement over whats real Islam. Maybe the moderates need to separate themselves from these beliefs a little more than they are now.

The other thing I noticed is the “scholar” answering the questions supports this violence. Is the scholar on the web page quoted a radical or a moderate?
He supported bombing innocent jewish civilians. He promoted women carrying out attacks, of course they dont call it terrorism. I got news for you , it is terrorism. How can you sit in here and claim that I am totally worng but then those answers and writings are on the very web pages used to prove to me most muslims are peaceful. I am having a hard time with that. I have to conclude that there are many more muslims promoting violence than there are Nazis using the bible to justify their hatred.

One of attackers in this thread had a web page listed as their home page. It was called “loose change” Basically it contends that Bush and his buddies blew up the WTC just to make money. It was 1 1/2 hours long and I watched the whole thing. It was really way out there. So many holes in the logic used, they just skipped right over them. Talk about a deliberate attempt to deceive the weak minded.

The US is not the great evil empire you try to portray. Hiroshima was justified and although horrible, a necessity. It saved so many more lives than it cost. I cant remember the exact estimates but it was more than the lives lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Stop trying to demonize the USA for it. If you cant see the difference in that and 911 maybe your loyalties lay somewhere other than with America.

what is bob jones university?!

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