<p>A grade-grubber is this one student I had a few years ago. Every point off resulted in an argument. She’d get a 93 and argue why it wasn’t a 94. she never learned from her mistakes, and that started to really urk me. (She didn’t know how to write very concisely.) I tried to spend time with her on this issue and show her how to be more efficient, but, to her, she just saw my role as grade-dispenser. The next year’s teachers complained about the same mistakes, the same arguments. She finally left the school, I think because she felt she wasn’t being heard.</p>
<p>I remember son’s AP Bio teacher talking to us about our son. There was time left over after a lab and he gave students the opportunity to do extra credit work. Most of the other students took him up on it, but my son figured he already had an A so he pulled out the book he was reading (Turtle Geometry - a comp sci book) and read it. Luckily bio teacher was amused by him.</p>
<p>I don’t see anything wrong with that, mathmom. It’s extra credit–that means it’s supposed to be optional. If it’s not really optional, but rather a test to see who’s motivated, then it just becomes a form of pedagogical passive-aggressiveness. If you already have a good grade, and you already understand the material, then spending the time reading something else worthwhile and interesting is exactly the right thing to do. (I know I may be preaching to the choir here.)</p>
<p>My $0.02:</p>
<p>I’m a junior at Big State U. I’m a pre-med and our program isn’t like, top notch or anything but it can definitely be challenging if one’s willing to make it challenging. My friends and I pretty quickly put pre-meds into categories including “obnoxious pre-meds” (grade grubbers), “down to earth/normal pre-meds” (top students) and “fake pre-meds” (most of those have been weeded out by now)</p>
<p>Obnoxious pre-meds are the ones that argue every point even if they’re already in the range for an A. They ask pretentious questions and try to make professors look foolish in class. They suck up in obnoxious ways (as opposed to sincere ways, described below). They’re OBSESSED with resume building and will do anything possible to pad a resume or boost a GPA. They usually complain all the time about how hard this class is, or how stupid that professor is for not giving them an A, or what a waste of time this extracurricular is but they have to do it to get into med school, etc. In my opinion, the obnoxious pre-meds are the ones that have given pre-meds in general such a snobby/pretentious/“I’m better than you because I’m good at science” reputation. I’m glad I’m not one of them and frankly I quite despise them.</p>
<p>On the other hand you have the “down to earth pre-meds.” To contrast them with the obnoxious breed, normal pre-meds don’t typically argue points back unless it’s a legitimate error or makes the difference in a grade cutoff, and usually aren’t argumentative when asking for re-evaluations of points or scores. They take classes they’re genuinely interested in, prepare for lectures, attend all the lectures (when the professor’s good), and ask questions that tend to spark discussions.They suck up in sincere ways–perhaps asking a prof about his research during office hours, or forwarding said prof a link to a relevant video (I remember doing this for a really cool real-time youtube video of DNA replication), or seeking advice from a prof by building a relationship with him. They typically do a few extra curriculars exceptionally well and build strong resumes as a result of their passions (at least this is true of me and my friends). Rather than complaining, they usually spend way too much time sitting around and talking about healthcare or science or their experiences with medicine so far or where their futures may lead.</p>
<p>I realize the irony in describing myself as one of the more humble, down to earth pre-meds. I think it’s mostly evident because the point I’m making is to distinguish the two groups, not toot my own horn (though I’m sure it seems that way!)</p>
<p>Anyway, that’s my rant.</p>
<p>I think sometimes it’s a matter of degree. A top student might engage in certain grade-optimizing behavior because grades do matter in real life, but the grade gubber will pursue these behaviors to ridiculous lengths. I’ll never forget this high school girl who was a serious grade grubber. Practically every night she’d call 10 different people to ask them what answers they’d gotten on the homework. A top student might consult another student if there was a doubt, but this girl would call lots of people to make absolutely sure she had the correct answer, or if she didn’t, that no one else did either.</p>
<p>
Hoping, of course, that they were not fellow grade grubbers, in which case they might give her decoy answers.</p>
<p>The question reminded me of Sydney Harris’s pseudo-conjugations, which would lead to the answer:</p>
<p>My S/D with a 4.0 UW GPA is a top student.
Your S/D with a 4.0 UW GPA is a little too focused on grades.
His S/D with a 4.0 UW GPA is a grade-grubber.</p>
<p>Sort of like:
I persist.
You perseverate.
He obsesses.</p>
<p>As many people have expressed here in various ways, the difference is between internal and external motivation. Internally-motivated people want to do things, like learning, for its own sake, the reward is the satisfaction they feel while engaging in the activity and accomplishing the goals they set for themselves but that nobody else might know about. Externally-motivated people are focused on rewards and recognition, and do things to just to obtain outside acknowledgment.</p>
<p>Everyone is both internally and externally motivated to some degree…it’s really a continuum, but from my readings and observation, I can tell you that internal motivation is greatly associated with higher self-esteem, while externally-motivated people are often highly competitive and unsatisfied.</p>
<p>IMO, schools and society that emphasize grades and awards, and ranking share a great deal of blame in kids growing up so competitive that they are miserable when they don’t obtain the rewards they seek. For them, a recognized achievement leads only to short-lived euphoria before they move on to get their next fix. They are less likely to put in effort if they see no reward and are less resilient when faced with failure. They grub for grades because they need that outside validation of their worth.</p>
<p>Kids who are mainly internally motivated, don’t have to be the best at something and take pleasure in the substance of their efforts–they may feel good when recognized but that is not a major incentive.</p>
<p>ooops, that should be “Sidney Harris” in post #27</p>
<p>D’s grade-grubbing classmate has a great thing going. She won’t do assignments that require speaking or presentation because she’s not good at those and her grades would suffer. If she can’t latch onto some other kid/group to do that part, she simply doesn’t do it and creates spectacular drama to divert attention. She’s now a senior and hasn’t done a single presentation or spoken project since fifth grade, so it clearly works for her.</p>
<p>While taking lecture notes, someone interrupts the instructor to ask, “Do we have to know this for the test?”</p>
<p>Grade-grubbers put down their pencils and look irritated or angry. </p>
<p>Top students may, or may not, keep writing.</p>
<p>I would think it’s the grade-grubbers asking if something’s going to be on the test. After all, why learn it if it’s not going to contribute to an A?</p>
<p>^Also! Then all the other grade-grubbers put down their pencils in unison. After all,
why bother learning it if it’s not going to be tested?</p>
<p>The top student still considers the idea, and if it’s relevant TO HIM?HER, will make a note. </p>
<p>It’s the difference between being involved only in the grading system(grade grubbing) vs. being involved in learning for its own sake (top student).</p>
<p>This reminded me of a remark made by one of my German profs. He was asked, “Do we need to know this?” about some grammatical topic, and answered, “No.” The topic turned up on the exam. The student protested, “You said that we didn’t have to know this.” The prof said, “That’s correct. You don’t. You can pass this course without knowing it.”</p>
<p>Just as someone once wrote who said that parents think a helicopter parent is any parent more involved they are, top student = your kid and grade grubber = someone else’s kid.</p>
<p>I like your last two posts Quant. Got my morning smile. To me, like Mantori and Northstar a grade grubber is someone overly focused on the numbers or grade, tends to ask if something is going to be “on the test,” asks for extra credit to boost a grade and argues about grades. Their motivation is generally pretty clear. Anecdotally I personally don’t think grade grubbers are the top students. If I were to write a recommendation for a grade grubber I might use words like dilligent, hard working, cares about their grades…stuff like that. I have one classic grade grubber and one that “otimizes resource allocation” and one that is somewhere in-between. The optimizer is at gut level the better student from a purely learning, thirst for knowledge, intellectual POV. The grade grubber is the better “worker bee.” I’m not too concerned the world needs the philosophers and the worker bees.</p>
<p>I know somebody who has a 99%+ in all the hardest classes. He doesn’t need to fight for grades since he already gets brilliant ones.</p>
<p>@zoosermom: how are they optional presentations? we are required to do presentations in some classes, and they are usually solo presentations so you can’t refuse - unless you want to take a 0 on it and automatically bring your grade down to a B or lower</p>
<p>Attitude is what I think differentiates the two.</p>
<p>Agree with MOWC aways back on this thread. When our kids moved from their big public system where there were lots and lots of 4.0 students to a small, extremely rigorous private high school - grade grubbing pretty much disappeared because it just didn’t work. </p>
<p>I have had moments when my inner demon surfaced and I tried to get my kids to be grade grubbers by urging them to push teachers to extend deadlines or argue points. Fortunately, my kids are cut of finer cloth and always blew me off!</p>