<p>ucbalumnus, I do know older son (UVa)was advised not to start off wth multivariable calculus , to consider taking calculus again (although it may have been calculus 2 he started with-can’t remember for sure but I know for sure he did not start off with multivariable). College is such a huge transition that I think engineering faculty may just want to make sure the kids get off to a good start. Both of my kids had 5’s on AP Physics B but I know they also had to take Physics again in college as I think engineering had higher requirements for completing the physics courses. If I remember correctly, Physics B is not calculus based so maybe that is why engineers would still need to take over physics in college?</p>
<p>sevmom, that’s why I said some. In our own family we have one writer and one analytical child. If your son was taking AP Stats in H.S., he probably already had a reasonable amount of facility w/numbers I presume. Spouse taught at college level and said some of the “numbers” whiz kids written work was nearly unreadable. But you are correct it was too broad of a generalization–some are equally adept at both. We actually steered our more analytical child away from 4-year business programs at the undergrad level a 2 schools where she was accepted, fearing she would miss the chance for a broad-based education at a strong liberal arts school. She ending up double majoring in Econ and French, is graduating a much stronger writer than we ever imagined possible, and has the option of going to B-School in a few years if she wants. Just our path, not for everybody.</p>
<p>AP physics B is a non-calculus-based course; some high schools use its syllabus as their honors high school level physics course.</p>
<p>Physics for physics and engineering majors in college is a more rigorous calculus-based course. It often lists high school physics as a recommended prerequisite; an AP physics B course is fine preparation for college physics in this context.</p>
<p>UVa’s AP credit policy is here: [Admission</a> - University of Virginia - Acalog ACMS?](<a href=“Admission - University of Virginia - Acalog ACMS™”>Admission - University of Virginia - Acalog ACMS™)</p>
<p>Thanks,pleaseadvise,That path sounds like it was a great one for your daughter. She sounds like an analytical kid who also has good skills in other areas,a great combo.Good luck to her! I think there is sometimes a misperception out there that most kids who are analytical or strong in things like math are “nerdy” or not strong in other things. My kids were both pretty typical kids,not socially awkward, athletic with good writing and communication skills. Again,typical kids in many ways.<br>
You mentioned engineering as being cutthroat. That hasn’t been my perception but my kids were/are not at super competitive schools(UVa,Virginia Tech). Husband went to CMU in engineering and I think his experience may have been a little more intense but not sure.
ucbalumnus, That is what I thought about physics. I knew Physics B was not calculus based so figured that was the reason for still needing Physics in college for engineering.Thanks for confirming that.</p>
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One can manage General Physics without taking an AP or even regular physics course in HS. In fact I find it rather irksome that D’s HS requires Regents Physics as a prerequisite to AP Physics AB. Technically, there is no reason why a student who has done well in pre-calculus could not succeed just fine in AP Physics AB. </p>
<p>KTE - keeping teachers employed, IMHO.</p>
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<p>Perhaps, but from the AP Physics teacher’s manual: “…the AP Program suggests, strongly recommends, emphatically advises, adamantly urges, and endorses the idea that you teach AP Physics as a second-year course.”</p>
<p>Personally, I think AP Physics B is way too broad to be a good intro to physics. Perhaps too broad to be a good physics course at all. The AP Physics courses are slated to be revised (trimmed down) in the next year or two.</p>
<p>AP physics is always going to have problems with acceptance by colleges.</p>
<p>B (without calculus) won’t be accepted for physics or engineering majors, and its usability by biology majors and pre-meds is limited because many medical schools won’t accept AP credit. For many students, it can provide an honors high school level overview of physics.</p>
<p>C (with calculus) often has trouble being accepted because (a) the organization of calculus-based physics courses can vary (e.g. a course may have electromagnetism and thermodynamics, the second half of C won’t cover it), and (b) electromagnetism is sometimes taught with multivariable calculus in college.</p>
<p>A high school student who is two grades advanced in math (calculus as a junior) and wants to take true college level physics courses should take physics courses for physics and engineering majors at a college rather than taking AP physics courses.</p>
<p>Our high school only goes to AP Physics B. I guess older son ,who had 2 years of calculus in high school, could have taken physics courses at a college but he really expressed no interest in doing so. He was in not that great a hurry and figured he’d just take what he needed in college. He was too busy playing sports and being a teenager in high school! He was no worse for wear by not taking college level physics in high school.</p>
<p>It is not necessary to take college physics in high school, since one can complete a major in physics or engineering on schedule starting college physics as a college freshman.</p>
<p>However, students who do want to get ahead should not be deceived by AP physics – in most cases, AP physics won’t actually allow taking more advanced physics courses early. The best way to view AP physics (especially B) is to view it as “a better or honors high school physics course”.</p>
<p>The AP physics also gives high school kids an idea of whether they like physics.</p>
<p>I’d like to see some thoughts on the difference between regular Phys / Chem / Math courses and the AP / IB varieties at the HS level. DD1 had an awesome Chem teacher in HS (PhD that got tired and started teaching HS in her 50’s) but even regular Chem was challenging enough… Would HS math/science teachers be able to explain the intricacies of science well enough at the AP/IB level, or would they be setting up the students for failure in college?</p>
<p>I have one data point of a HS kid who tested into Calc III out of DD1’s HS but the kid is at the savant level - 3.9 first year GPA at a top 20 math school… Lots more stories of kids from the same HS that aced AP Phys/Chem/Math and hit the wall running at the college level…</p>
<p>So, to me, it’s one of two things - if HS AP/IB is indeed college level, can the HS teachers teach at that level (or students comprehend) compared to taking the same class in college and also, assuming the courses are similar, would the extra refreshers (say, 8-12 credits) be worth the money for GPA sensitive majors (premed, etc)</p>
<p>Some of DD1’s friends that could have skipped college phys/chem via AP still had a devil of a time with intro college phys/chem… I can only imagine the disaster if they had skipped intro college phys/chem via AP and walked into the 2nd semester…</p>
<p>In other words, are we over-emphasizing the 5-pointer AP’s at the expense of actually learning the stuff in college?</p>
<p>Usual recommendations at Berkeley for use of AP math and science credit:</p>
<p>Calculus AB: 5 -> skip first semester calculus; 3-4 -> may skip first semester calculus, but consider retaking
Calculus BC: 5 -> skip first year calculus; 3-4 -> may skip first semester calculus, but consider retaking
Physics B: appears useless
Physics C: 5 -> engineering (not physics) majors may skip mechanics, not electromagnetism; 3-4 -> useless
Chemistry: may skip if their major requires just one semester of chemistry; retaking is recommended if major requires additional chemistry courses; chemistry and chemical engineering majors take a more rigorous version and cannot use AP credit
Biology: allowed to skip a year of general biology, but many biology majors are pre-meds who retake it anyway for medical schools that do not accept AP credit for biology
Computer science A: useless for more advanced placement
Computer science AB: counts for one semester of computer science
Statistics: a few social studies majors (not economics or business) allow it to be used for a statistics requirement</p>
<p>Thank you for the very helpful explanation! </p>
<p>In my view, the only worthwhile course here would be Calc BC with a 5, and if anyone at the HS level is good enough to pull a 5 in Calc BC chances are they’re heading into a STEM major and might as well retake it for the grade or to learn a thing or two… Calc AB and Phys are punts, Bio and Comp Sci not even worth punting…</p>
<p>The reason I’m asking is simple - DD1 SAT’d out of College PreCalc since she took it in HS and had a solid SAT math score. So she could take the ‘Elementary Calculus for Poetry Majors’ course (half the class is review and the dreaded Slytherin sign of integration shows up a month before the class ends…) which the Architecture department sneaked in as a mystery required elective (don’t ask).</p>
<p>Since DD1’s math skills match mine (i.e. nearly none) she, her advisor, and us decided to have her take the precalc course in college. She absolutely positively loved it, said that it was taught (30 students) by an awesome prof, and she nearly pulled an A (multiple choice tests… no partial credit, little curve). The course can be used to fulfill some university core so we did not waste tuition money, and she feels a lot better about taking the ‘Elementary Calcilus for Poets’ course.</p>
<p>I guess the rationale here is simple - if you have doubts about your student’s math acumen, go with your gut and not by the SAT / AP score. paying for 3 credits is peanuts compared to hitting the wall a year later. </p>
<p>In our case this worked very well since the school has an awesome support structure (required weekly study sessions and more reviews than C-SPAN) plus 1:1 tutoring for free… One has to appreciate the feeling of a student finally understanding some concept or another that for some reason was not taught well at the HS level…</p>
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<p>My kid the econ major got a 5 on the BC Calculus test. There are majors outside the world of STEM that use math, and econ is one of them.</p>
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<p>The 5-on-BC students would probably be very bored retaking a regular freshman calculus course, and would be better served by taking a more advanced course as specified by their university. If retaking freshman calculus, they would likely be more interested if they learned something new in an honors version of the course.</p>
<p>But yes, most of the rest of the science APs are worth less than what high school students may initially assume based on the marketing of “AP = college credit”.</p>
<p>I guess the problems is in the schools my kids have attended is ds is one of the only ones on the same stem path. He is one of 3 in calc bc this year, and he took honors physics in 11th along with ap chem, then this year the only choice was ap physics b, which he enjoys, but says is super easy. It wasn’t until he started that he realized if he and the other 2 kids in ap calc bc had gotten together they would have made a physics c class. None of us understood that there were different physics ap’s. At least he learned what he likes and doesn’t like. He didn’t like biology, even at the regular high school level and wouldn’t take ap because he heard it was mostly memorizing. He realized while taking ap chem he didn’t like chemistry. However he always loved physics.</p>
<p>Our schedule rotates so there is no leaving early to take community college classes. However our cc is not so hot and chances are he has more motivated kids with him now than at the cc. </p>
<p>He’s hoping for a 5 on the ap bc exam so he doesn’t have to take another year of basic calc. The physics will probably help him for about 5 minutes in the physics for engineers.</p>
<p>I’ve never really thought that AP classes = college. I think it’s great that the kids can take them in high school if they have exhausted what’s available but never really thought they were a replacement for college classes. We call them “mulligans” because if the kids end up with credits that transfer they can tweak their schedules knowing they have those mulligans. My number two is taking a 12 credit hour semester this winter instead of his usual 15-18 because he has a really tough 4 classes and is using a mulligan to replace a non major/minor distribution class. That’s what makes AP valuable for a kid that’s got a 4-year plan.</p>
<p>In our Maryland county, students are only required to take 3 years of math in order to earn a Maryland high school diploma:</p>
<p>3 credits
√ 1 in Algebra I
√ 1 in Geometry
√ 1 additional mathematics credit</p>
<p>So, at least taking into account the fact that many areas must be similar to my own, the idea that kids should be ready for calculus by freshman year of college strikes me as unrealistic. </p>
<p>I required my daughter to take a 4th year of math in high school because I’m hoping she gets into UMCP (which only requires 3 years of math but recommends 4), but even so, she’s in a 12th grade pre-calculus course that’s kicking her butt. If it weren’t for her twin brother (math guy who’s taking a college course in differential equations/calculus 3), she’d be in serious trouble.</p>
<p>I would consider my daughter far ahead of the majority of her county peers in terms of math achievement, even if she hasn’t taken calculus.</p>
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<p>I completed my informal poll with my siblings and my own children. We all completed at least one year of calculus in high school and another one at college. Same can be said for statistics. Our undergrad majors are Asian studies, biochemistry, psychology, and three in business.</p>
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<p>In Ontario, gifted education is part of special education and special provisions are made for those declared gifted. I am told that these parents are the most demanding and political as well. The best students I have seen, however, are actually those who score slightly under 130 on the WISC. They seem to work the hardest.</p>
<p>I live in an area that has one of the highest average incomes in the province. The teachers are also among the highest paid. My childrens calculus teachers all have honours degree in mathematics, and are among the very best in the department qualification-wise. The schools all know how important this course is, so they are not taking any chance with the teachers, or they will hear from the parents very quickly.</p>
<p><a href=“He%20said%20many%20many%20kids–even%20some%20who%20had%20taken%20calculus%20in%20high%20school–flunked%20the%20class.”>quote</a> (Hmmmmm. . .)
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<p>I think this is where honestly in grading comes in. I am told that teachers often give students a bare passing grade (50%) to indicate to the student and the university that the student has no business taking calculus. My personal feeling is that any student with cognitive ability below the 70th %tile would not do well in the subject, and quality of teaching makes a difference at the periphery only.</p>
<p>BTW, we also only need 3 years of math for a high school diploma, otherwise the political fallout will be enormous.;)</p>
<p>Gifted education in the US is hit or miss…And mostly miss.</p>
<p>Another point about recommended versus required always reminds me of an admissions rep at UVa. She was talking about foreign languages, but I think her point would be the same for math. She said that UVa only requires three years, but most of the applicants you are competing against will have four years.</p>