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<p>Geometry in 9th grade is actually one grade level ahead of normal. The normal progression is:</p>
<p>9th grade: algebra 1
10th grade: geometry
11th grade: algebra 2
12th grade: trigonometry and precalculus
college freshman: calculus, if needed</p>
<p>When I attended college even Harvard had a pre-calc course as Algebra 2</p>
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<p>Hmmm, back when I was in high school and college, UCs were much less selective than now, but they still required a minimum of 2.8-3.2 high school GPA (depending on SAT score) for base eligibility (Berkeley and UCLA were more selective, but nowhere near the levels they are today; out of state required at least a 3.3 high school GPA). CSUs were not that selective, but they were not taking D students; their minimum eligbility thresholds started at 2.0 GPA (but that probably needed a high SAT score to go along with it).</p>
<p>Of course, back when I was in college, the remedial course enrollments were much higher than now (more than 50% in remedial English at Berkeley, and precalculus math was big).</p>
<p>Still, isn’t a C in high school precalculus supposed to mean a solid passing grade indicating readiness for calculus in college? You are only supposed to need to repeat a course if you got a D (barely passing, insufficient to continue to the next course) or F (failure) grade.</p>
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<p>Yes. In NJ, at least, the fourth year of math is not required for graduation. I wouldn’t be surprised if other states are similar.</p>
<p>Back when I was at Harvard in the dark ages they used to offer a pre-calc course (not for credit I think) because back then it was considered perfectly normal to stop taking math with Algebra 2. The basic course they offer now, seems more advanced than the lowest level back then. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for colleges to have pre-calc available for kids who belatedly realized they need more than they have. Most states only require up to Algebra 2 for a high school diploma.</p>
<p>Wow UCB just wow your statistics from UofM are an eye opener! I honestly would have thought that college wouldn’t have any kind of pre-100 level classes. This thread has totally got my attention and I’ve been drifting along about high school since I got the first in (and out thankfully) of college… I dont’ think every kid needs calculus by any means…I got through college with one Math for non-math majors class to fulfill my distribution but in high school back then I was “college track” and we had to take 4 years of math so I was supposedly ‘calculus ready’ when I arrived, 4 years later I had to take calculus at a Big 10 school and didn’t have too much trouble. gsmomma ours is the same way Alg. in 8th grade (for presumably the college bound) with a test to get in and then from there into the high school classes with an ability to test out at any point in time (for kids that take a math class at our local college or are just light years ahead). As seniors they have Trig, AP Stats and Calculus (not sure if it’s AP or not since neither of my 2 older boys took it.</p>
<p>I guess the colleges don’t care because they probably make money at it…hire an adjunct and the kids pay tuition, but this is not good if all this is true. Perhaps the math portion of the ACT and SAT need to be beefed up. I know the ACT only has 2 questions that are much more advanced that Alg. 2 according to my kids. Are we dumbing down our kids and inflating their grades, are high schools not doing the job or are the colleges accelerating? Can kids really go to college with 3 years of math and science and English? And what is it with public schools that they have enough money to allow supposedly college bound kids take sleeper courses? I’m really late to the party aren’t I considering I’ve been on these forums so long.</p>
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<p>For public universities, extra in-state tuition subsidy is being spent on in-state students who need remedial course work. Think of it this way: the state government (i.e. taxpayers) is paying for public high schools to teach algebra, geometry, and trigonometry and then paying the universities (and community colleges) to teach algebra, geometry, and trigonometry again to the same students. That is a big waste of money for the taxpayers as well as a waste of money and time for the students.</p>
<p>Also, to the extent that fixed resources like classroom space are used on remedial courses, they cannot be used to offer other courses that college students may be interested in (or there may not be enough space in the other courses for all students who are interested in them).</p>
<p>Something that needs to be considered in this discussion is that when you get off the coasts and away from the metropolitan areas, there are LOTS of very small schools in rural areas that may or may not have teachers to teach math successfully. One hundred years ago when I went to college, we were told that we needed two years of math to go to college. Being a rather lazy student, I dutifully took and muddled through algebra 1 and geometry. You know I needed below 100 level math when I arrived on campus. My daughter completed geometry in eighth grade.</p>
<p>My point is that I think that many four-year schools must offer multiple levels of math because not all schools, teachers, and/or students are created equally.</p>
<p>DD is in a magnet HS in NC and took preCalc in 9th and AP Calc (AB/BC) in Sophomore year getting a 4 in AP test. She did Statistics in jr year and is doing Graph theory in Sr year. This is very common among her classmates.</p>
<p>prdparent, My experience with public schools is similar.The courses are there if the student wants them. I really don’t think this is a public vs. private school issue.Older son did AP Calc AB and BC and AP Physics with 5’s. Not a magnet,just a regular city public school.</p>
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<p>Maybe before the mid-1960’s…but not in most K-12 schools back when I attended high school and from what I keep hearing from friends who teach/TA college courses…certainly not now unless they attended a topflight rigorous public magnet or private high school. </p>
<p>More to the point, if one is going by the seemingly old-fashioned standard that all 4-year university/college students should be above-average at a minimum…does a C or even a -B meet that standard? I’d doubt that would have been the case…even several decades back…a reason why even some public flagships forced to accept C/D in-state students in the 40’s-60’s dealt with that by instituting vicious weed-out policies across the board.</p>
<p>A lot of top students don’t take AP calc at our suburban HS. To qualify to be val. you have to have 4 AP classes and a 4.1. Many vals end up in Dual Enrollment Stats.
The rest of the kids might take College Algebra or no math at all the senior year.</p>
<p>Also it is common for kids to repeat Calc. 1 in college. They don’t feel like they are prepared plus it moves twice as fast.</p>
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<p>But isn’t the point that if they are in college they should be ready for a freshman calculus class? My kids are in a pretty good public school. They have all had “crappy” teachers and I hear about it to the point they exhaust me. Generally the whine goes something like this “So and so is such a crappy teacher, I don’t learn anything and I have to figure it out by myself.” But the bottom line is ultimately whether they learn it from a crappy teacher or they “teach it to themselves” they come out at the end of 4 years ready for college. Why are kids even getting accepted at colleges if they aren’t ready? There is so much chest thumping and crying about how competitive it is to get into college these days but if the kids aren’t ready why are they even getting in and “how” are they getting in? To me there are three separate questions: Are our kids taking college preparatory curriculums in high school (sorry but 2 years of language and 3 years of all else to me is not college prep), secondly are our teachers in general doing a “crappy job” and thirdly why are the colleges accepting kids that aren’t ready? Do they not know? Are our college prep tests ACT and SAT dumbed down? Oops that’s four questions.</p>
<p>My d’s high school didn’t even offer AP Calc – except as an on-line course. (No one EVER passed the AP Calc exam). It was a very well regarded arts magnet – strong in arts, weak in math/sciences. </p>
<p>Again… I don’t really get the point of placing so much emphasis on calculus. Of course it is great when a student is ready for calculus… but not particularly relevant to their college experience in the majors that the majority of college students are pursuing.</p>
<p>I mean, I understand the importance of a foundation in math – I just think that statistics is far more important in the social sciences.</p>
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Not being “ready” for a college course that the majority of undergraduates are not required to take has nothing to do with college readiness.</p>
<p>My d., who attended a very elite and highly selective LAC, was absolutely appalled at the weak writing skills of many of the students in her first-year writing section. Maybe her math skills were weak, but she had profs her first year complimenting her on the quality of her writing — and at least in her field of study, the ability to express thoughts clearly and cogently on paper is what really counts. (OK, so they don’t seem to actually use “paper” any more… but same idea)</p>
<p>I tend to agree, calmom- the emphasis on math/calculus is most important for a kid needing calculus for something like engineering, physics, math,etc.</p>
<p>Cobrat, I agree with what you are saying…College prep track in the 70s at my pubic high school was not the B kids. It was 20+ kids who graduated in almost all cases in the top 10% (my graduating class was 200) from a somewhat rural very small public. We had some “special” classes like Great Books and some others that were unique but really nothing special. Some of the kids that were in the next track down did go to colleges but generally they were the bright slacker boys and the bright slacker girls (who probably tested very well on the ACT and SAT) so say another 20-50 kids. So out of a class of 200 maybe 70 actually went off to 4 year colleges. We are sending way more kids to college now, but that doesn’t explain why a school like UofM with an entrance threshold of roughly 3.8 and ACT scores with a mid-range of 28 - 30 supposedly 21 is college ready and a 25 or 26 puts you in the top 20% of test takers…would admit kids that require remedial classes…makes no sense. The state of Michigan has colleges with programs to “ease” the transition. Maybe these are development kids or maybe there are ‘special reasons’ but in the absence of special reasons there is no reason. I went to small rigorous LAC for undergrad without remedial classes so perhaps this has been going on for 3 decades and the volume is simply increasing. I’m not an intellectual snob but I would like to assume that kids taking a full college prep curriculum with all the requisite classes and are college ready if the colleges accept them especially at a competitive flagship. If certain institutions want to position themselves for the not quite ready for the flagship or the not quite flagship material then so be it. I have no problem with that, I think everybody who can achieve a college education should have the opportunity. I do not think our selective colleges and universities should be in the business of coddling our next generation and I think our high schools do a grave disservice if “college prep” prepares kids not quite ready for prime time.</p>
<p>They should also be able to put coherent sentences with passable spelling and punctuation together if headed off to a selective college or university. I give a pass on spelling as it appears that like adding and subtracting we’re well on the way to automated spelling. I’m a dinosaur I used a slide rule and took statistics before hand held calculators and key punched in grad school so I “get” that times change but…</p>
<p>That most of this group is not ready for calculus indicates that high school math education is severely lacking.</p>
<p>It has been that way for a while.</p>
<p>[Where’s</a> the Math? | Working to ensure a quality mathematics education in Washington State](<a href=“Preply - Best online language tutors and classes”>http://wheresthemath.com/)
[Cliff</a> Mass Weather Blog: How Good Are UW Students in Math?](<a href=“http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-good-are-uw-students-in-math.html]Cliff”>Cliff Mass Weather Blog: How Good Are UW Students in Math?)</p>
<p>Students take through pre-calc in high school but when retested at the university, they are often lucky if they place into algebra.</p>
<p>IF the teachers don’t have the time & energy to supplement the crappy math curriculum the district dictates- or if the students aren’t able to get on a different math track by virtue of being way ahead of grade level when they are in middle school- they are poorly prepared even if they never get below a B & take 4 years of high school math.</p>
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<p>However, a good knowledge of high school math is necessary to do well in a college statistics course (and some college statistics courses for social studies majors have calculus as a prerequisite).</p>