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Or she could just get a pre-calc book and do all the problems herself over the summer. Math tends to be self-teachable in review!</p>
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<p>This may work for a student who simply feels inadequately prepared.</p>
<p>Whether it will work for a student who has flunked a college’s placement test depends on college policy. Will they allow the student to retake the placement test after self-study, or is the student required to enroll in a remedial course?</p>
<p>I wondered. At my last college reunion one of the profs (who was a 1st year prof my freshman year) said a similar thing. I didn’t think much of it other than I wondered if we were getting curmudgeon-ee in our middle years. It somewhat makes sense because all the pressure is on the high schools: Parents want to see their kids get good grades, High schools want to have high graduation rates, states wants schools to succeed, the government wants more kids in college. I’m a pretty laid back mom, I didn’t much care what grades the boys got I was more interested in what they learned. If you think about it “grades” in and of themselves are pretty silly it’s what you learn that is important. If you can only retain for a 1/2 hour test you haven’t really learned it. On the other hand if colleges accept kids with less than 4 years of math or less than 4 years of English with solid writing then they have willingly put themselves in the position of remediating kids that really weren’t college ready. I’m just surprised to see this occurring at selective colleges and universities. I would somewhat expect it at colleges and universities that take high school low B/C kids.</p>
<p>I don’t mind preadmission testing…heck I even had to take some standardized test in my major to get my diploma and get out of college back in the dark ages. I remember one guy had to take it 3 times to get his diploma and he went onto law school. We thought it was hilarious. All colleges should test their seniors in their major before handing them a diploma. But pre-admission testing “could” be used as an entrance requirement…or the ACT could be strengthened to cover more material that is absolutely “college ready” material. The ACT math is pretty basic straightforward math…maybe just not tough enough to satisfy college ready, the bar may be set too low.</p>
<p>My son said in his hs calculus class (the one that didn’t finish the book), the teacher took longer to teach each concept than he had originally planned to do. Son said many of the students would come to school with homework unfinished, complaining they didn’t understand, so the teacher would take more time to teach that concept.</p>
<p>Were the students lazy?
Was the teacher a cruddy teacher?
Were the students unprepared (mathematically) coming into the calculus class?</p>
<p>I don’t know which, if any, of the above problems were present. I do know it resulted in my son not learning as much calculus as he was supposed to have been taught in that class. It worked out for him since he took a college calculus class online second semester his senior year to get ready for college. The other students probably faced the problems being discussed here when they arrived at college.</p>
<p>For the record, I think it was my son that may have prompted this thread. He got an A in precalc in his “private high school”, but tested back into it when he got to college. </p>
<p>I just wanted to bookmark this thread, but also say that his “private school” was not what most CC parents mean by “private school”. It was a tiny " Christian school" that did not teach evolution until well after my kids got there ( they went there from the age of three until they graduated HS), did not have accredited teachers for quite a few classes, and struggled especially to find math teachers. I did not think much of it until I came to CC. I noticed AFTER he graduated, that while his math SAT was maybe the 85 percentile for the state, it was the 90th or so for the school. School seemed to be much better at English/ writing, or maybe that was just my kids. </p>
<p>And I consider H and I well educated.</p>
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<p>Possibility of #1 & #3 or all of the above. </p>
<p>It also sounds like your son was a victim of LCD teaching…especially if he performed at or above the top 1/3 of the class. </p>
<p>This would have never happened at my public magnet high school because nearly every teacher there taught to the top 1/3 or 10% of the students and expected the rest to keep up or sink. Anyone who complains or is at the bottom end of the class* is reminded that they made the choice to take the exam to come to our school and if they don’t like it…they could always transfer back to their zoned neighborhood (often average-mediocre) high school.</p>
<p>Moreover…they usually had no hesitation to use the same blunt reminder on the parents if they come to complain.</p>
<p>cobrat, I can’t see that happening in my sons’ city public school(not a magnet) either. The kids who were strong in things like AP calculus and AP physics stayed together and had excellent teachers. In my older son’s AP BC calc class, there were only about 6 students in the class (out of a class of over 300 students). As I mentioned earlier, my younger son never took calculus in high school by choice but was placed in calculus as a first semester freshman in college. So, you do not necessarily have had to have had calculus in high school to be placed in it as a college freshman.</p>
<p>I am curious how our system compares to yours. Here is the math curriculum in Ontario:</p>
<p><a href=“http://ontariomath.wikispaces.com/[/url]”>http://ontariomath.wikispaces.com/</a></p>
<p>For the university stream, you take the math courses (click on the left) ended with a D in grades 9 and 10. For grade 11, you take the course ended with a U. For your senior year there are three choices- calculus, algebra, and statistics, all ending with a U.</p>
<p>All students must complete Grade 12 English and five other courses, and fulfilling some distribution requirements to graduate. The universities, and the specific programs in particular, do have additional requirements. If you want to do physics, the program would most certainly stipulate that you have all 3 U maths, while an English major need not do any math at all. For business, you will need U calculus, and a second U math of your own choosing in most cases.</p>
<p>Early in the senior year, students would make their application to universities. By looking at the data provided by the universities, they can easily see if they have the grades necessary for their choice. If not, they can choose another program within the same university, or choose a different university with the same program.</p>
<p>No fuss at all.</p>
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<p>Is that more of an “enormous waste of time” than teaching basic English composition to freshmen because they are incapable of writing simple declarative English - a capability one would presume they would have, had they been properly taught in high school (and elementary school, and middle school)?</p>
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<p>This is not a new phenomenon. I went off to college in 1964, to a well-regarded eastern LAC-with-engineering-programs, and there was no way I would have been ready to step into a calculus class. And very, very few of my peers had had calculus in high school; and freshman calculus (only one level was offered, i.e., no calculus for dummies sections) was a notorious weedout for students who thought they wanted to be math majors or engineers. Prospective math majors needed a B to continue (most who didn’t became econ majors); engineers also needed a B, although those who missed it could opt to go into Industrial Engineering (derided by the “real” engineers as “imaginary engineering”). </p>
<p>IIRC, there was no lower-level math offered. You either started in calc, or took a two-semester Logic course instead of math. One of the reasons I selected the school was that it was one of the few LACs at the time that did not have a math requirement for humanities/social science majors. I took the Logic course, and it has served me very well in multiple ways over the ensuing nearly half a century.</p>
<p>Canuckguy that’s pretty similar to the US system. Algebra I in 8th or 9th, then Geometry or Algebra II in 9th and 10th, then there is Trig or Stats and Calculus. Since Michigan requires 4 years of math, our school has added “finance” as a math class for kids that just can’t handle the progression. Some schools can afford DiffyQ or other math classes, ours cannot afford “extra” stuff but we have a nearby university for kids that are really accelerated. Regardless it sounds like some high schools don’t require 4 years of math for college bound students and it sounds like colleges don’t require 4 years either. Back in the 70s if you were college prep the colleges wanted 4 years of math, 4 years of English and 4 years of science and 3 years of history, arts, and at least a couple years of a foreign language etc. I remember high school and it was the same thing every day every year. Math class, English class, Science class, Band (for me), History and German…except for Band and German you moved through with pretty much the same kids. Some had choir, or art and some had French or Spanish but otherwise… It was a pretty straightforward education back then…not too much time for extras during the day. College prep kids didn’t’ get a study hall or home ec or shop or office skills (as it was known then…basically typing). You never signed up for classes, they just put you in them and you never talked to the GC until senior year when you reviewed your ACT/SAT score and discussed your college applications. Other kids could throttle down and not do 4 years straight of the basics and take those funner classes or have a study hall. I know my kids have taken stuff like astronomy, economics, mythology and all kinds of extra high school stuff and they have 7 classes a trimester instead of 6 that I had in semester system which I guess allows for those extra classes but I’m wondering if that’s all good if some kids aren’t getting the basics. I thought there was a whole back to basics movement going on?</p>
<p>Then again, there are students who would appear to be calc ready by college who nonetheless crash and burn, while peers who would appear somewhat less ready are able to master this material at another schoool or with a different instructor. Sometimes this has to do with the latter student being prepared to work harder and smarter, but I do not think this is the whole story.</p>
<p>Frazzled kids and friends report a wide range in quality of teaching among their intro calc sequences (through diffy q), and in intro chem, physics and CS classes. Because (as sylvan pointed out) math tends to be self-teachable in review, students who are merely reviewing concepts that they have already encountered in high school will do fine if they work hard and seek help here and there, even if the professor does not explain well and is not available for questions before and after class, if nobody is grading homework or exams individually, because answers are multiple choice and a single correct solution is posted for each problem, and the teaching assistants (because they are not grading homework or exams) are out of touch with how the students are doing. </p>
<p>Or, students who are not taking the course for review can be careful to find a good tutor or study group during the first weeks of class, to search for supplementary material in other textbooks if they are stumped by a concept, and then work hard to learn most of the new material outside of the classroom. Ironically, students who have already done this for one reason or another (remedial or to move ahead for a competition) during high school might be better prepared for this at the college level than those who took good high school teaching for granted, and who never needed to search out tutoring.</p>
<p>In addition, all students might have to cope with steep and somewhat confusing curves (so that nobody really knows if and when they are in trouble) or exams that become unexpectedly and arbitrarily difficult if it seems that too many students have done well on the first exam.</p>
<p>At the other end, there are professors who are superb lecturers, and homework, exams and quizzes that are individually graded and that correlate with what is taught or reviewed in class. Sometimes a recitation teaching assistant who is a good teacher and aware of areas where students are having trouble can also help, as can availability of past quizzes or exams. A student who might not be “calc ready” in the former situation might do very, very well in the latter.</p>
<p>I agree with what momofthree said.</p>
<p>I will say, though, that our state has a few other “nickle-and-dime” requirements, some having come through state legislation, like a credit of Health, and credit of Personal Finance (or some such name), and a couple credits of “practical arts.” Depending on the class and the teacher, these can be somewhat useful or a complete waste of time.</p>
<p>Sometimes the students here on CC send me their essays to review…I am shocked at the poor quality of the writing.</p>
<p>True frazzled, many us have sent kids off to college holding our breaths wondering how it would go. I do know there are many factors that cause kids to be successful or not successful, but readiness testing at the colleges happens before they even dive into the social aspects or have to deal with TAs they can’t understand or confusing professors. The readiness testing is simply that…are they prepared academically for that particular college. My S2 just bombed organic chemistry, but he’ll just have to do it again, he’s got a couple mulligans from AP classes so it won’t disturb the 4 year compact we have. S1 didn’t bomb anything in his 4 years.</p>
<p>OK – here’s what irks me: </p>
<ol>
<li><p>When my daughter was taking statistics at Columbia, she felt that she needed help. Apparently either her instructor or the TA (I’m not quite sure which) was a very nice person who had limited English proficiency, making it difficult for her to get clear answers to her questions. She formed a study group with other students, but that was not helpful much beyond moral support – the other students were as confused as she was. There was a math help center at her school – but when she went there for help, the tutors said the could help with calculus, but that they didn’t know anything about statistics. D pulled an A in the course, which I suspect may be partly a result of a low curve on the final exam. </p></li>
<li><p>I did not take stats in college, partly because at the time I didn’t understand what stats was about. However, in my life & career I have needed to know something about statistics and statistical concepts again and again. I don’t need to actually be able to do statistical calculations, fortunately – but I do need to understand concepts like “standard deviation” or “P-value” and understand what they mean. I personally was not able to really grasp that until I at least had a superficial understanding as to how those values are calculated, so I had to spend a lot of time with self-study. </p></li>
<li><p>It has been my observation in my careers, that most people have a poor grasp of statistical concepts. Therefore they misconstrue research and statistical reports that have an impact on the decisions they make. This tends to be carried over quite dramatically to media reporting of studies and surveys. My personal pet peeve is the common misunderstanding of the word “significance”. My observation is that most people take “significant” to mean “a lot” or “substantial” – while the term “significant” is used by researchers to mean “a correlation more frequent than random chance”. So I very commonly see report that suggest a very weak correlation of two factors to be widely interpreted as meaning that there is a very strong correlation. </p></li>
<li><p>It is also my observation that many active posters on CC either misunderstand very basic statistical concepts, or fail to apply or think about them in way that is appropriate to their meaning. Here I am not talking about very basic ideas such as “median”. CC posters seem to have a Wobegonian concept (“average” is the number that everyone must be above). </p></li>
<li><p>My son recently took the GRE, 10 years post-high school. There is a “new” GRE and out of curiosity, I decided to take an online practice test myself. I found that most of the math test questions are basic algebra and geometry, with a handful of statistics problems thrown in that require understanding of probability, permutations, and combinatorics. While I am not a fan of “teaching to the test”, it is at least apparent to me those are the math proficiencies that all students who plan on grad school ought to have, if for no other reason that it will help them score well on the GRE. </p></li>
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<p>So I question the devaluing of statistics in favor of calculus. It is quite common on this board to see parents posting that their rising high school senior has a choice of taking AP Stats or AP Calc, and being advised by many that their kids should take the Calc course, either because the stats course is purportedly seen by colleges as “too easy” - or because that is something that is best deferred until college. I realize that college students who have taken calculus can also take calculus-based statistics – so that having calculus expands the ability to study statistics in-depth… but it seems more common that calc is not only the starting point for college math… but very often for non-math majors, also the end point. That is, they study calculus in college, and may even move from a basic to advanced calculus class… but they don’t study any math beyond that. </p>
<p>I honestly think the world would be a better place if all college grads had at least a fundamental understanding of statistics. At least I think that politicians would be less prone to passing dumb laws. Econ would be a good course for everyone to take as well.</p>
<p>So my beef isn’t really with the idea that students need more math proficiency… I just think that we’re prioritizing the wrong type of math, focusing on the math that engineers and scientists absolutely need to have, while ignoring the math with broader application to everyone’s lives and careers.</p>
<p>I’m also pretty surprised that so many freshman at Michigan have to take precalc. Out of the 20+ people accepted from my school so far, all are at least currently in Calc AB. This also holds true for previous classes.</p>
<p>Also, I live near Benton Harbor. The number of students that even applies to Michigan is incredibly small. They have hundreds more students than my school yet only 6 applied to U of M last yr. One girl however won a Gates scholarship and is now attending Wash U on a full ride. And BH does, in fact, have a Calculus class.</p>
<p>The fraction of calculus AB students that end up getting 1’s on the test is currently running about 1 in 3. Chances are, these students were not ready for calculus in the first place.</p>
<p>On the one hand, calmom, you’re right that for the average person, statistics is way more useful than calculus.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you look at the number of college students who are in remedial math, I’m pretty sure most of them are prepared neither for statistics nor for calculus. I’m certain that’s true in the California state colleges as a whole, for example.</p>
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<p>For which students is this true? Which students in college are required to take calculus, but not required to then take another class that requires calculus? Realize that plenty of classes not in the math department require calculus. Economics, computer science, chemistry, physics and engineering classes typically require calculus.</p>
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<p>Speaking in the case of computer science…not until you hit the intermediate courses or higher. </p>
<p>In the intro CS course for majors I took…almost all the math needed was algebra with some geometry thrown in. Moreover, being ready for math beyond calc 1 or 2 wasn’t a guarantee one would survive the weedout process as my classmates and those of friends/colleagues who were CS majors found.</p>
<p>I did take calc in undergrad and took stats at Harvard one summer a few years later because I felt it would be useful.</p>