<p>The issue of Asian discrimination has nothing to do with affirmative action, though people often tend to convolute the two. </p>
<p>It is entirely illegal for any school to seek to limit enrollment of any group. Any group they seek to target to increase enrollment they must prove it is narrowly tailored to meet the mission of the institution or greater goals of state/national interests.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure here if you are saying we shouldn’t conflate college admission policies with general societal discrimination or if you are saying favoring one group in admission policies shouldn’t be conflated with disfavoring another group in admission policies.</p>
<p>^So umm yea…to diverge from the discussion…just curious…but would an asian applicant with a low income (below 40000) have a better chance at Harvard than a similar asian with a middle income?</p>
<p>The latter.</p>
<p>I’m saying that seeking more urms should not be conflated with actively limiting asian enrollment. Asians should not have a -50pt or whatever burden for being asian. And if they do, it is not a result of affirmative action, but a result of discrimination against Asians. </p>
<p>Personally, I don’t think their is discrimination of Asians. Until I see data otherwise, I still suspect it is because many Asians seek the same path to college admissions success and thus lose out in the battle for diversity because their profiles are more “homogenous”. A generalization of course.</p>
<p>And yes the lower-income Asian would have a better shot provided they were roughly the same.</p>
<p>As a GROSS generalization, but probably still a general statement of verifiable fact, there probably are a lot of Asian applicants to United States colleges whose parents, born abroad, have a different conception of how the system of college admission here should work from how it actually does work. That is, it’s probably helpful to be an Asian applicant with a less “typically Asian” admission profile, other things being equal. </p>
<p>I’m still not at all sure if having a low-income designation is helpful or harmful in the college admission process. Every so often I post the links below to various CC threads, pointing out that many scholars think that low-income students are still by far the most disadvantaged students in the recruitment, application, admission, and undergraduate and postgraduate study processes. </p>
<p>[BW</a> Online | July 7, 2003 | Needed: Affirmative Action for the Poor](<a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg) </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0621.pdf[/url]”>http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0621.pdf</a> </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ff0615S.pdf[/url]”>Error; </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/carnrose.pdf[/url]”>http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/carnrose.pdf</a> </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/kahlenberg-affaction.pdf[/url]”>http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/kahlenberg-affaction.pdf</a> </p>
<p>[A</a> Thumb on the Scale | Harvard Magazine](<a href=“http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html]A”>http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html) </p>
<p>[The</a> Best Class Money Can Buy - The Atlantic (November 2005)](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveraging/4]The”>http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveraging/4) </p>
<p>[The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Recruiting a New Elite](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=510012]The”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=510012) </p>
<p>[Cost</a> Remains a Key Obstacle to College Access](<a href=“http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1240]Cost”>http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1240) </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.jkcf.org/assets/files/0000/0084/Achievement_Trap.pdf[/url]”>http://www.jkcf.org/assets/files/0000/0084/Achievement_Trap.pdf</a> </p>
<p>[Legacies</a> of Injustice: Alumni preferences threaten educational equity–and no one seems to care. - Reason Magazine](<a href=“http://www.reason.com/news/show/123910.html]Legacies”>Legacies of Injustice) </p>
<p>[Promise</a> Lost: College-Qualified Students Who Don?t Enroll in College (IHEP)](<a href=“http://www.ihep.org/publications/publications-detail.cfm?id=117]Promise”>http://www.ihep.org/publications/publications-detail.cfm?id=117) </p>
<p>[Colleges</a> reach out to poorer students - The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/11/10/colleges_reach_out_to_poorer_students?mode=PF]Colleges”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/11/10/colleges_reach_out_to_poorer_students?mode=PF) </p>
<p>[The</a> Associated Press: Study flunks 49 states in college affordability](<a href=“http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkBGMsvJKRKaL67qxkOCaDByDJFAD94R70G02]The”>http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkBGMsvJKRKaL67qxkOCaDByDJFAD94R70G02)</p>
<p>Keilexandra, I was saying that when affirmative action first began, it was targeted specifically at blacks in an attempt to make up for inequalities that resulted from years of discrimination and mistreatment (to put it mildly), but today these inequalities are still felt. These inequalities have been rectified for many but not for all, which is why race alone should no longer be used as the sole determinate of who benefits from AA; socioeconomic status is, in my opinion, the best way to enforce AA in a way that people who have an actual need benefit from it. In your example, that Peruvian family should not get the benefit.</p>
<p>As a URM i’m all for it and i do think its fair to some extent because you are always gonna be faced with some racism. But AAs especially don’t push themselves as they should. A lot of them dont think about the future but are stuck in the present. I don’t get why some AA’s don’t challenge themselves and only do whats comfortable.</p>
<p>Let me clarify my previous posts. First, I am not an expert. I am just a stupid kid and my opinions are only based on what I see at school. I am probably wrong. My opinion is probably too simplistic but here’s what I see. </p>
<p>I live in Southern California and go to a school with a large Asian population. The top 10 members of my class are Asians. I know each very well. Every one of them lives in a home with two parents whose expectations are very high. They work very hard to achieve top grades. They go to special tutoring on the weekends. They take SAT prep classes that last for months. They aren’t rich. All but two are middle or below middle class. Their parents are willing to spend the money on tutoring because that’s what they emphasize at home. They don’t buy much of anything else. These kids have top grades, top test scores, and are involved in lots of ECs. Even so, they tell me that their parents are still pushing them to do more. They are also pushed by their Asian peers to achieve. It’s like they are all competing with each other. </p>
<p>I also have many African American friends. I can only think of one of these who lives with both parents. The rest live with their mothers, aunts, or grandmothers. These friends are just as capable as my Asian friends, but achievement is not emphasized in their homes. When I asked one my closest African American friends (the one who has both parents) why he didn’t try harder (he’s very bright), he asked me, “Do I look white or yellow to you?” To me, the message was clear: In his mind, academic achievement was for whites and Asians. I know of no African American who receives tutoring on weekends or who took one of the serious SAT prep classes (my friend above took a weekend course). Generally speaking, African Americans just don’t take school as seriously as Asians.</p>
<p>In my opinion, the academic differences between my Asian and African American friends is not due to racism. In my opinion, it’s due solely to what their families emphasize at home and what their friends expect from them. In my opinion, the real reason Asians do well and African Americans don’t do as well is based on their respective cultures, and not racism. Asians tend to have great family support when it comes to achievement, while too many African Americans live in homes with only one parent whose expectations for achievement are low. </p>
<p>Raynebow757 mentioned that African Americans are behind the curve with respect to how to address education, and that’s why we have AA. The problem with that logic is that the real problem (kids being raised in single parent/grandparent homes with low expectations) is actually increasing. The situation was better 50 years ago (at least according to my APUSH teacher). </p>
<p>How does AA address this problem? It doesn’t. Even after 40 years of AA the problem is getting worse. The problem needs to be addressed, but it seems to me that its the kind of problem that only African Americans can fix. </p>
<p>Given my view of the world, you can probably understand why I don’t like AA (even though I will benefit from it). It’s not fair to my Asian friends who work so hard. In my opinion, it’s just wrong to allow somone who didn’t try as hard in school to take positions from those who acheived because they did try hard. </p>
<p>That’s my opinion. I could be wrong. Flame away.</p>
<p>In regards to the whole “family expectations” subject, I can see how it would work. IMO, there is isn’t really a focus on education in some families. While I had the luxury of focusing purely on academics, many families are not that fortunate. I know some of my peers had to work during school to help their family, and therefore had to sacrifice a lot of time.</p>
<p>Due to a number of different extenuating circumstances, a teenager may have to put their focus on supprorting their families. However, I do not think that “race” is one of those circumstances. It just happens that most families are of a minority, but correlation does not prove causation.</p>
<p>Random tangent: I live in San Diego, and my sister went to UCSD. I heard about the UCSD Preuss School from her, which is one of the top secondary schools in the nation (secondary means high school, right? I hope so.) They only accept students from low-income families that don’t have parents that graduated from college. It doesn’t even matter where you live in San Diego; they’ll shuttle you in if necessary. Oh, and it’s free to the family.</p>
<p>That said, the admission requirements are very high. And when I heard about it, I wanted to go. But my mother graduated from a 4-year college. Oh well. My spot went to a student who really deserved it.</p>
<p>“Raynebow757 mentioned that African Americans are behind the curve with respect to how to address education, and that’s why we have AA. The problem with that logic is that the real problem (kids being raised in single parent/grandparent homes with low expectations) is actually increasing. The situation was better 50 years ago (at least according to my APUSH teacher).”</p>
<p>Old College Try, I can understand your rationale. But I first want to say that there are slackers of every race, which is why I can’t agree with your generalization that African Americans families - in general- don’t emphasize education. Your example with your friend can’t really be used as an example for all people. With respect to the portion of your post that I quoted above, the problem of absent fathers, or single-parent households, partially stems from this inequalities that I talked about before. If men don’t have a college degree or lack the basic skills, then what job can they get? Where are they supposed to find a source of income to provide for a family? The psychological torment of feeling inadequate can lead someone to turn to drugs and some people will steal or sell drugs to provide for their family; all of this can land a person in jail or in the cemetery. And if you’re in either one of those places, you can’t be at home, helping to raise your children, forcing them to do homework, encouraging them to do better.</p>
<p>raynebow757, few people in this country are as poor as first generation Vietnamese or Cambodian. My neighbor is a first generation family from Cambodia. Neither parent speaks English or has a high school diploma, let alone a college degree. The dad works three jobs, while the mom stays home (I think she does some kind of business in the home). From a job perspective, it seems to me that this man’s life is more difficult than the average African American man. Even so, he has five kids, including a son (the third kid) who ranks first in my class. His oldest two kids were also in the top 10. It can be done when someone is dedicated and works hard. The difference I see is that first-generation Asians think they and their kids can succeed if they work hard enough. Maybe this is why they often do. </p>
<p>You’re correct. There are slackers in every race. I wasn’t implying anything different. Single-parent families are a problem in our society and not just one for African Americans. The numbers are going up for all races, according to what my teacher told me. However, the problem is most severe for African Americans. Are APUSH teacher said that something like 80% of African American children born in 2007 in the US were born to unmarried women. That number was much smaller in the 1960s. So even though racism has been addressed (not fully, but to a great degree) maybe this is now the biggest problem. If so, AA doesn’t do anything to deal with this problem. </p>
<p>My point wasn’t to start a conversation on unwed mothers. My point is that what was true in the 1960s is not necessarily true today. In 1963, African Americans and other minorities didn’t have a fair chance to succeed because of racism, and they needed and deserved help. What frustrates me is that the adcoms seem to think this is still 1963 and that racism is the primary reason why there is an achievement gap. I don’t think racism is the reason for the acheivement gap, and that’s why it frustrates me that the baby boomers in charge of the system won’t move out of the 1960s.</p>
<p>I don’t know why a boost is needed at all, but if the colleges feel a need to give people a leg up against other applicants, maybe they should base it on something other than opinions on race that they developed when racism was the primary problem.</p>
<p>It looks like a lot of participants are agreeing that colleges should take care to consider an applicant’s economic circumstances.</p>
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<p>Then we are in agreement on principle, though disagreeing on implementation. I am of the camp that racial affirmative action should be discontinued entirely if/when/until socioeconomic affirmative action is instituted. The Peruvian family I cited–which is a true example–has one daughter at Columbia. She was a good student (but not an amazing student) with great recs and essays. She is certainly qualified for Columbia, but if she were not URM, I believe that her transcript (a smattering of Bs and perhaps a C in many AP classes) would have made her a tough sell for the Ivies. But as a Latina with no major academic issues, she’s almost a shoo-in. These are the students who get into elite schools with the help of affirmative action–because the truly disadvantaged don’t have the grades or extracurriculars or even the aspiration of daring to apply.</p>
<p>“I don’t get why some AA’s don’t challenge themselves and only do whats comfortable.”</p>
<p>And what is this supposed to mean that we Asian Americans don’t challenge ourselves and only do what’s comfortable? Many of you say that Asians have “very similar profiles” to each other, yet whites have VERY SIMILAR profiles to each other as well. But it is Asians that are shot in the foot for being “similar to each other” while whites are not penalized for being similar to each other. This is a BLATANT double standard and for people to say that Asians don’t face racism in admissions is a complete LIE. It was only about 40 years ago when minorities were being hosed down while protesting for equality and I highly doubt that all of the admissions officers in the universities have let go of old prejudices (in fact I believe that many of them still hold certain prejudices). And to say that the newer generation of Americans is no longer racist is also a complete lie.</p>
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<p>I think the abbreviation to which you are responding, in the context of the reply you quoted, means “African-American” and not “Asian-American.” In some other contexts in this same thread it might have been interpreted as “affirmative action.” Not all abbreviations to “AA” are created equal. 
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<p>I would generalize some of these comments to say that most college applicants probably do as much as they have to, but possibly not a lot more, to reach their college goals. I do think that if college admission practices change, applicants of all ethnic groups will step up and do what it takes to be admitted to the colleges they prefer.</p>
<p>^ yeah i meant African american; didn’t realize until after the post and was to lazy 2 edit.</p>
<p>I’ll renew my question from up above: </p>
<p>What kind of initiative should a college applicant show to demonstrate that he is willing to learn from other students, including other students who don’t share the same ethnic background? It seems to me, because the earth is full of lots of different kinds of people, that any college admission office would be doing the right thing to prefer applicants with a demonstrated ability to get along with all kinds of people. How can a high school student develop that ability? What resources or activities do you recommend to students who want to understand other people from other ethnic groups better?</p>
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<p>Oldcollege try, I owe you a partial apology. Your views are based on some situational fact. But the problem with your perception lies in the superficiality of your conclusion. Let’s take this a step deeper. </p>
<p>First off, yes more African American children are born to unwed mothers, but the same is the case with all American children. I don’t have any evidence to suggest that this has increased anymore than the national average, and suspect it increased at a slower rate. I’ll research the topic, but its relevance is minor. </p>
<p>Second, yes AA does address societal problems like this by giving more black students college opportunities and increasing the size of the black middle class. It is statistically shown that African Americans are among the only groups that actually gain significant earning power as a result of attending a more “prestigious” university. </p>
<p>I also want to question your idea that it is this attitude, not racism, that causes the achievement gap. I think you are both right and wrong at the same time. Let’s consider where this lack of academic emphasis stems from. </p>
<p>African American culture was conceived out of oppression. They didn’t maintain their culture when they “immigrated” like Asians or Europeans. The effects of the difference in cultural origins is exemplified by the model-minority status of Afro-Caribbeans. In fact, if Afro-Caribbeans were considered a separate group, they would be the highest scoring group on the SAT and the second most overrepresented group on ivy league campus’. </p>
<p>African American culture originated among an oppressed and impoverished people. So you are right when you say that while African Americans did not have academic opportunities then but they do to a far greater extent today. However, the culture solidified at a time when they did not have academic opportunities. African Americans were taught by our educational system up until the 1960s that education was not “a black thing to do”. And it was true that education was not the way to go for them to achieve success. </p>
<p>As you can infer from this point, by some form of cultural natural selection, it would have made no sense for African American culture to emphasize education if that emphasis would lead to failure. To this day, it is still shown in our culture, both inside and outside the African community as a result of this self-perpetuating cycle, that academic success is not a “black thing”. </p>
<p>There are many other effects of this cycle that result in an education system that is naturally, as a result of being run by human products of American culture, discriminatory against African Americans. So while you turn to your African American classmates and blame them, asking why they can’t achieve like your Asian peers, the issue is far more socially complicated. </p>
<p>Yes, there needs to be internal changes within the African American community (It’s not “fair”, but it’s just what they’ve gotta do). But there also has to be external changes, including a greater understanding of the effects of race in America. I would say that 50% of the students at my school believe race has little to no impact on the opportunities people have today. </p>
<p>I hope that in my brief outline I have at least introduced another side to the story, and I welcome this kind of discussion when people are rational and willing to listen. :)</p>
<p>^ You pretty much nailed it.</p>
<p>Hi, Tyler09, </p>
<p>I thought African-American and Afro-Caribbean people are quite alike in that they both have ancestors who were brought to the Western Hemisphere in slavery and both were kept as slaves by persons who had no particular regard for their ancestral culture. In other words, as of the mid-1800s, both were about equally poorly situated, and arguably the Caribbean blacks lived in a much poorer region of the world. (The American south was behind only the American north and Britain in overall wealth in the immediate antebellum period.) </p>
<p>I thought the main differences between African-Americans and Afro-Caribbeans are </p>
<p>1) the Caribbean slaves were emancipated earlier, </p>
<p>2) the British colonies never had a Jim Crow policy of intentionally lousy schools for former slaves, as did the United States south in general (which I think is the crucial difference), and </p>
<p>3) the Afro-Caribbeans often formed the majority population in the territories in which they lived, making them less subject to terrorism by organizations like the Ku Klux Klan. </p>
<p>Of course, the most salient difference between African-Americans we see here in the United States and the Afro-Caribbeans we see here is </p>
<p>4) that the latter are a self-selected group of immigrants, presumably the more educated and more ambitious individuals among the people who grew up in the same place. </p>
<p>I hope that as the majority of Americans who are categorized as “white” observe more and more examples of black people (of various places of origin) with outstanding achievements in more and more fields of human endeavor that more and more people of all ethnic groups encourage high expectations among all people they meet.</p>