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I suppose that means Asians can look forward to a future of running Hollywood. ^_^</p>
<p>Hope Full’s situation seems typical of many Asian kids. Too many Asian parents believe enrolling into a prestigious college is a sign of achievement to display like a trophy, instead of focusing on real achievements. If I were on a college admissions committee, I would ask, “What motivates this person?” whenever I look at an application. If I felt that their motivation came from their parents who want them to go to a prestigious college, I would reject them promptly.</p>
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<p>This post prompts me to question the idea of admissions in general: </p>
<p>If a person has achievements to get into a college and is interested in the college (whether it is academic programs or prestige), what constitutes to the “right reasons” and what are the “wrong reasons” and who is to judge? I honestly do not believe many people Asian or not would apply to schools solely based on prestige, I’m sure they also like the school for specific programs, future job opportunities, etc. </p>
<p>Also, what is the difference between a “prestige-whore student” and a “prestige-whore parent” because isn’t that basically the same thing? People are hammering Asian families for wanting top notch name schools yet most people on these boards share the same motivations except instead of their whole family wanting it or the student wanting to make their family proud, it is wanting prestige for self-interest. I am sure anyone with academics to get into HYPSM caliber schools cannot be coerced by parents alone in order to reach that caliber of achievement, they must all demonstrate motivation for academics themselves. As the old adage goes, “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”, and this is precisely what I mean.</p>
<p>Lastly, isn’t saying that wanting to make a family proud by going to a prestigious school is the wrong reason implying the whole culture of Asians to be inherently incorrect? And more importantly, are we worthy to judge the culture of a whole ethnicity?</p>
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<p>They pretty much seemed to have ruled the Golden Globes last night! And, who was the protagonist?? A brilliant teenager (haven’t seen the movie yet, but can only imagine at least some of his motivations to win had something to do with his parents…haha)</p>
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<p>Bill Nye the Science Guy obviously ;)</p>
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<p>If only this were true, although blacks get an advantage when it comes to college admission, we have to face alot more in society than other races. I mean blacks of all socioeconomic classes are discriminated against bc in reality all people see when they look at me is a black male. This causes all the sterotypes to become associated with me, but I have noticed that every time I have started speaking (I am a really good speaker) people instantly change the way they treat me. It is rascist and we have to deal with alot more than people sometimes realize.
Like I know that I can not go to some of my Asian friend’s houses bc their parents do not like black people. And we all know that Asians are incredibly racist against black ppl, don’t even pretend as if that is not true. I know WAY to many Asians who have said the exact same thing.
In fact one of my Asian friends father said that if she married a black guy, he would not be able to show his face.
So much for being treated like kings :/</p>
<p>Masochist, I’m not sure I would call it a cultural thing, but if it is, why should that prevent it from being scrutinized if it deserves criticism? Also, I don’t understand what you mean with your adage. It would be more appropriate to apply it on kids who don’t want to please their parents.</p>
<p>I know we often joke about CC posters, but I believe that there are many students who apply to prestigious schools because they want a chance to learn from the brightest minds and be around students with similar passion and interests.</p>
<p>As for the right kind of motivation, I have a convenient example. Johann Bernoulli wanted his son Daniel Bernoulli to study business and his other son Jacob Bernoulli to study theology. Instead, they both studied mathematics. If might have simply obeyed their father’s wishes and not pursue their own intellectual interests and the world would be poorer for it.</p>
<p>hey Dbate, you think you got it bad?</p>
<p>gays have it 10O TIMES worse.
Gays get made fun of and picked on and beat up so much it’s not even funny.</p>
<p>In addition, if someone says he’s gay, he is kicked out of the military. Many states even ALLOW open discrimination against gays in job hiring and that type of thing. I know a lot of gay kids that are too scared to even tell anyone about their sexuality because they know that they will be perceived as weird and picked on.</p>
<p>I think that if blacks get affirmative action, so should gays because they currently face ridiculous amounts of discrimination.</p>
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<p>Should we judge a culture if it allows men to dictate how women should behave? How about one whose ethnicity contains a caste system which discriminated against others and gives others privilege? Yes, as people we should be able to pass sound and logical criticisms on other cultures. To not be able to criticize North Korea’s oppressive dictatorship or Myanmar’s militaristic rule only because it is “different” is not a good excuse.</p>
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<p>Is this a competition to see who can become the most marginalized? Blacks face a society which already pin them as uneducated and aggressive who only have “broken” families and have a lot of sass and obnoxiousness. Gays are stereotyped as effeminate men who have a flair for fashion, constantly obsess about material things and other men, and who are not “true” men. Blacks and GLBT (being gay myself) are discriminated against, and no matter what one thinks about who has it “worse”, it is still discrimination.</p>
<p>Obama has already said he would repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell and more states are passing legislation for gay marriage (New Jersey may be the next state).</p>
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<p>I personally believe that Affirmative Action is a good program for minorities despite myself being Asian. Colleges have emphasized again and again that they are not looking for the most intellectual people on the planet who can fill up their class sizes. HYPSM reject or waitlist many applicants every year who are valedictorians and 2400 SATs. They want diversity in other forms which includes using AA. </p>
<p>As an example, I will use 3 of my friends who all were accepted (under AA) into Columbia in the past 2 years.</p>
<p>Black Male: Grew up in Richmond, CA (8th most dangerous city in the country), and went to a public school with a majority of poor blacks and latinos. He had about a 1900 SAT. His brothers were involved in with the Bloods (gang) and were both killed in a drive-by during his sophomore year. His grades tanked and by the time he applied to colleges, he had a 3.4 GPA. Participated in a gang outreach program to help gang members get out. Worked in a soup kitchen and many beautification programs in the poor areas. Wrote an essay about his brothers’ deaths and how it caused him to work in the community to help slowly change outlook for other youth. Attends Columbia.</p>
<p>Asian-American Female: Grew up in San Francisco and went to a public high school with minorities. She had a 2000 SAT score. Her parents were refugees from Laos and was an only child. She worked at a retail store part-time after-school to help support her family while still managing a 3.6 GPA. She did some ECs including peer mediation and debate club. She wrote an essay about how she enjoys to secretly change the hangers or swap stickers so that small shirts have a medium sized sticker in front or how size 1 jeans are on a hanger that says size 5. Attends Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Latina: Grew up in The Bronx and was accepted into the prestigious Prep for prep program. She was valedictorian in her class and had about a 1850 SAT. She excelled in English and science and had a 3.8 or so GPA. She grew up in poverty and could not do many other EC activities or community service because she had to babysit her 4 other siblings. She wrote her essay about the time she learned how to file taxes when she was 12 and how she took on a much more adult role in her family because her single mother could not speak English. Attends Yale.</p>
<p>Without affirmative action, I do not think any of them could have gotten into most of the colleges that they applied to. If it were only based on merits, then many more Asian and white students would be in the colleges. The scores and grades of a person are only on one level. How do you expect a college to be holistic with admissions while only taking into account how many leadership positions or how high their SAT scores were? Colleges say they want to see the whole student. Affirmative action takes into account the setting and place that students have dealt with while growing up. </p>
<p>And while AA always hurt some students, this whole college admission process is unfair. Who tends to get better education in school due to more materials and better teachers to be able to get higher SAT scores? Schools with upper or middle class students. AA is just a way to even the field.</p>
<p>^I didn’t read the whole thing…but all I got was that some guy with close relations to a gang got into columbia…wow totally not appropriate. Just cause he was in such a bad environment doesn’t mean he should have this opportunity…wow I’m shocked at the unfairness of it all.</p>
<p>^ To clarify, his brothers were in the gang while he was not. He actively participated more in outreach for gang members to get them out after the deaths. And although his grades tanked his sophomore year, he received excellent grades in his junior and senior year.</p>
<p>for some reason, i cant quote…anyways:
AvantTao</p>
<p>“Black Male: Grew up in Richmond, CA (8th most dangerous city in the country), and went to a public school with a majority of poor blacks and latinos. He had about a 1900 SAT. His brothers were involved in with the Bloods (gang) and were both killed in a drive-by during his sophomore year. His grades tanked and by the time he applied to colleges, he had a 3.4 GPA. Participated in a gang outreach program to help gang members get out. Worked in a soup kitchen and many beautification programs in the poor areas. Wrote an essay about his brothers’ deaths and how it caused him to work in the community to help slowly change outlook for other youth. Attends Columbia.”</p>
<p>Coming from someone who grew up in Richmond, I can really relate to your friend and his upbringing. (although im not black, im asian). Wait…richmond is the 8th most dangerous city in the country? I dont know about that one, but maybe 8th dangerous city in california? (and I’ve lived in every crevice in richmond, from the projects to the “suburban” parts). I knew a bunch of people who were mixed up with gangs, and I hate to say it but some of my friends really screwed up their lives and are now in jail/ or shot. </p>
<p>hmm. just wondering but what high school did he go to? many people from the hood actually end up in a pretty decent school (echs)</p>
<p>Gay ppl recieving AA, that is completely absurd. For one there is no way to validate if a person is gay or not. I could write that I am gay on an application and the next day go kiss my girlfriend. But moreover, discrimination that gays face do not neccessarily impact academics so I don’t understand why colleges would give them AA.</p>
<p>I’ll note as a historical matter that as soon as application deadlines are past, and applicants can no longer do any more about their applications, the subject of affirmative action policies and the subject of anything else that an applicant can’t control about the admission process becomes a “hot” topic here on CC. But heat doesn’t necessarily produce light. I wish all of you all the best in this year’s application season. Don’t be scared by rumors; continue to aim high in your studies. If you applied to a good range of reasonably chosen colleges you should enjoy admission to somewhere where you can thrive.</p>
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<p>He went to RHS. Oh, and at the time he was applying, Richmond was about the 8th most dangerous city in the country. (Google it). I think its about the 13th most dangerous now.</p>
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<p>Some schools have AA for GLBT students who identify themselves on the application. And being GLBT DOES have an impact on academics. If you live in a school which is extremely intolerant and makes fun of people who are “effeminate”, then it can make life very hard. Being gay can create some extreme isolation with other students and families even. There have been countless stories in the news about GLBT kids who have committed suicide because everyone was teasing them and they just couldn’t handle it.</p>
<p>There is no way to validate whether a person is gay or not, but by doing so (as I did), it puts your application into a different light. If you come from a rural area, south, or inner-city neighborhood, I would assume the admissions officers would know that you have faced discrimination and/or isolation for either being out or in the closet. And its not only in those schools where GLBT students face discrimination.</p>
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<p>Thank you for this post! I feel like this issue has been brewing under the surface in many of the recent AA-is-unfair threads/posts. At some point someone needed to put words onto these emotions and I am glad that you did so in a very insightful and reflective manner. That said, I think you will dislike what I have to say in response to your post. </p>
<p>I understand the importance of getting into a “name brand” university in order to please your parents/family. However, families’ quests for prestige really is not (and should not be) a concern for any university (famous or not). They want interesting people who will make the most of their resources and facilities. This is not to say that Asians aren’t interesting people, but rather a comment on their propensity to gravitate towards the natural sciences and math. Universities know this and I am sure that you will find a lot of Asians in these departments at the name brand institutions that your parents covet. But what about the humanities, the arts and the social sciences (sans economics)? Universities need to fill those programs with talented people as well. Perhaps the general Asian preference for sciences and math is to blame for what many of you consider discrimination of “robot Asians”? You must not ignore that there are other worthwhile academic pursuits that colleges need to consider. I am certain that an Asian student with a demonstrated passion for social justice who applies as a prospective sociology major would be very attractive to any top school. I recognize that such a major might not impress demanding parents, but again, that really isn’t a problem to anyone besides the prestige-oriented families. </p>
<p>If test scores were the be-all end-all of college admissions, Asians as a collective (and it’s a huge collective) probably would get accepted at the most famous institutions at higher rates. Colleges know that standardized test scores, while applicable to some fields of study, do not predict how well a student will perform in college. SAT scores cannot predict potential success for students who intend to major in fields such as dance, Russian, film studies, history, anthropology, psychology, etc. because the test doesn’t measure the skills required for these subjects. What I am trying to say is that while good test scores make applicants competitive, they singlehandedly do not make a person more or less qualified than someone with lower scores. That is not how college admissions works in the U.S. Thus, there is no need for anyone to be angered by affirmative action because hard work and good scores are only two of several factors considered in the holistic admissions process practiced by the top institutions. Everyone needs to stop thinking they’re entitled to certain privileges, such as being accepted at top schools, on the basis of silly standardized tests. If the SATs resembled some of the insanely difficult and comprehensive entrance exams students in many Asian and European countries have to sit, I would have felt differently about them, but fortunately, they don’t. </p>
<p>As many people have already posted: the main concern for prospective college students should be getting a quality education, not attending a well-known institution. The list of LACs with few Asian students is a great place to start searching for colleges where you can receive an education that is equally good, if not better, than the undergrad education at many of the most famous research universities. Graduate schools at these top research universities know that LACs produce high quality graduates and will consider any applicant with good grades from these LACs as highly as Ivy League graduates.</p>
<p>I concur with Swedefish: this is an excruciatingly long thread and I’ve probably made this point earlier but if I may, I’ll restate it again.</p>
<p>You can’t have your cake and eat it too</p>
<p>What do I mean? Some ultra selective colleges are assailed for allowing in “less qualified” applicants over metrically (GPA/SAT) higher ones in a “unfair” or “progressive” effort at diversity. This smacks of unfairness and the system should be scrapped, some say.</p>
<p>Well, the fact is about 90% of US colleges DO admit solely on academic achievement such as GPA and test scores. If you’re a 3.8GPA student w/29ACT, I feel confident that 85% of the COUNTRY’S colleges would love to have you as a freshman. However, the fact is also it’s very rare for these colleges to pop into the so-called “top tier” schools and many CC over achievers would deign themselves to consider these lower tier schools.</p>
<p>I posit that a select few group of colleges (mostly privates) and their ability to cherry pick from a large applicant pool is one of the very reasons that they enjoy society’s (and most CC denizens’) honor and prestige. By having an institutional goal to pick “interesting” & “diverse” (and I won’t argue about what those mean – it’s up to the individual college) student body, this has helped propel these colleges to the realms of high esteem and are sought by you and your kids. </p>
<p>One then cannot turn around and condemn them for their “holistic” admissions processes. I’m an Asian who graduated from an HYP college and perhaps because “I got mine” I’m less sensitive to the feelings out there. Yet I am still a staunch defender of its admissions policies.</p>
<p>One last thing: A hypothetical question for you to consider:</p>
<p>Two equally prestigious colleges admit you. One has 60% asians (and about 80% of these from NY, NJ and CA). The other is more balanced – about 15% asians and about 10% other URMs. If the facilities and offerings from the schools were the same, which student body would you feel could enrich your undergraduate experience more? Honestly?</p>
<p>If you’re struggling with the answer, know that it’s already been answered for you. The top schools choose the latter because it works for them and their students.</p>
<p>T26E4, I understand what you’re saying, and I wish I could agree with you. </p>
<p>My mom’s older sister has two daughters. My oldest cousin attended Yale. She decided to attend medical school and was accepted to all four medical schools that she applied to (she ended up at Hopkins). My younger cousin had better scores in high school than her sister but she decided to seek a “more enriching” type of undergraduate experience, and she went to the University of Kansas, which is a good school. She did well at KU and also decided to go to medical school. She scored slightly higher on her MCAT than did her older sister who went to Hopkins. However, she was rejected from Hopkins (and 3 other top medical schools). She was accepted into a medical school in Kansas, and she now practices in Kansas City. My older cousin is now a surgeon at a leading hospital in NYC. </p>
<p>I tell you this story because prestige does mean a lot in this country. Although my undergraduate experience may be “more fulfilling” at a smaller, less known school, attending a top flight school will give me a more direct path to my ultimate career goals. </p>
<p>In other words, it is not just CC posters who consider the HYSP schools to have more honor and prestige. Graduate schools and employers also reach the same conclusion. If my cousins’ experiences are normal, attending the HYSP schools will make a difference in my future. Isn’t that reason enough to strive to attend those schools?</p>
<p>Hope Full, the University of Kansas is a good state flagship but not remotely the same as a top LAC (and Asians ARE considered URMs at schools as good as Middlebury or I’ve even heard Williams to an extent due to the rural location). Also, I empathize with your previous post but feel compelled to contribute a different perspective–I’m also a first-generation Asian (zero-generation, technically, as I was born in China though I didn’t grow up there) and my passion is English. Does that please my parents? …Not particularly would be rather an understatement. But YOU are the one going to college, not your parents.</p>
<p>T26E4: You’ve fallen prey to the common fallacy that eliminating AA means eliminating holistic admissions. The two are easily separated and indeed should be separated.</p>
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<p>So, basically what you are saying is that for anyone else who doesn’t attend HYPS, we are all screwed and stuck with working in bad jobs?</p>
<p>No, I can name you a ton of politicians, doctors, and other “prestigious” people who have attended other schools that may not sound as “prestigious”, but are. Bates College in Maine, has an 80% placement rate for grads into medical school. Despite being less heard of, they churn out some amazing doctors. My Bates interviewer graduated from the college in 1998 and received her MD at Stanford shortly after. Getting into med school have some weight for students to get into medical school, but your professor recommendations and MCAT scores are much more important. At some LACs I am applying to, they even have a Board full of science professors who will review your application, offer advice, and as a whole write a recommendation to send to your med schools. And I have always preferred LACs over ivies because the student body is much smaller. This means you can make more a of a mark on campus and become extremely close to your professors which leads to better grades and better recommendations.</p>
<p>And as a prospective student, I have as much respect from people who graduate Bowdoin, Middlebury, Williams, Amherst, and other LACs as I do for ivies or UCs.</p>