<p>Ok, you can have your own interesting personal views that’s nice. My point is that there has been a huge uproar about how there is only 1 black coach in the NCAA division 1 football conference; read about it in the USA Today and similar newspapers.</p>
<p>However, noone really cares that there are almost 0 Asians playing NCAA division 1football. That’s a double standard and is ridiculous.</p>
<p>NFL coaches were required to interview black coaches because few blacks were coaches; by that same standard, NFL teams should be required to invite Asians to their team tryouts because there are so few Asians on NFL rosters. It is only logical.</p>
<p>Also, giving blacks and Hispanics a huge advantage when getting into selective colleges just because of their ethnicities does not make America any more color blind; it makes people’s ethnicities a defining characteristic.</p>
<p>i mean im asian but im not like asian asian. kinda annoying when i go out and see those stereotypical asians kinda mkaes me angry since they are furthering a stereotype (that is generally accurate).</p>
<p>DreamingOutLoud I don’t understand why you would be offended. My comments were obviously anecdotal and therefore generalizations are from a select number of instances. Moreso, many of my Asian friends are first-generation so their parents harbor biases that are more prevalent around the world. Black ppl are terribly presented in the international media so many foriegners have a very negative opinion of black people.
For instance my mom had a co-worker from nigeria who talked about how Africans look down on the black people in America.
Also gender has some role in it as well, Asian parents as a group are more accomadating of their daughters being with other girls, but some of my friends are Asian girls so black boys are not the ideal friends from a parental standpoint.</p>
<p>^ All of the Asians I know are also first generation and many of the people I know (including me) have immigrant parents. I suppose I misunderstood but your last post just seemed to sound as if you honestly thought all older Asians are racist. You did say, “we all know that Asians are incredibly racist against black ppl, don’t even pretend as if that is not true.” You did not say that your comment was based on your personal opinion of the Asian friends that you know and it seemed as if you were making a complete generalization.</p>
<p>Gender is definitely important, yet most of the Asian girls I know do not date Asian men. Some of their parents may not have understood in the beginning but most got over it quickly. For others, it was a non-issue.</p>
<p>The reason they want more black coaches in the NFL is because 50% of the players are black. But I agree, that has nothing to do with admissions.</p>
<p>Okay, I understand your point, but racial diversity seems to be a way to allow for differing viewpoints on a growing multi-ethnic world. While allowing for AA will let some applicants with lower scores or GPAs (as the same with legacies and athletes), their viewpoints and opinions in the classroom help compensate for the initial unfairness. However, it is not like HYPS will dramatically lower their standards. All students accepted should be able to do the work. Without AA, we are going to cause a lack of needed diversity in classrooms. Look at the demographics of the UCs after the passage of Prop 209.</p>
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<p>This is my second complaint: What’s is wrong with a society that is not colorblind? We should be able to live in a society that celebrates our differences without lumping everyone into one. Whenever people use the term colorblind, it seems to me as a cop-out to not discussing about the racism or discrimination minorities face in society. Sure, it may make an ethnicity a characteristic to a person, but it brings along a unique culture and viewpoint that could not exist in a colorblind society. That’s what makes America unique.</p>
<p>^To the above post, I disagree that race is “a way to allow for differing viewpoints on a growing multi-ethnic world.” A black person and a white person from Princeton, NJ have nearly the same upbringing in a vacuum. However, consider a situation with white person from a poor community and the same black person from Princeton. THe white person most likely had greater hardships; however, his race will still impose as an antagonist to his college ambitions.</p>
<p>A black and a white person from Princeton, NJ living in the same town do NOT have the same upbringing in a vacuum. As I have said before, racism in our society now exists in a covert manner. The white person lives in the majority in the city while the black person is a minority. The media and its portrayal of blacks and white can affect them as well. Both factors can lead to two different types of lives.</p>
<p>Your example of the poor white to the affluent black is a little faulty. If the poor white person has pushed through his settings and taken advantage of available resources, his race would not play a factor. Admission officers take into account the school you have attended and where the graduates go upon graduation. If the poor white can write about his experiences being poor, then his race becomes negligible in admissions. The same can be said about a middle-class white who lives in Idaho or Montana.</p>
<p>To prove my point that poor whites and Asians (myself included come this April) can get into such colleges, this is my friend who was accepted into Columbia but chose to attend Swarthmore:</p>
<p>Asian-American Female: Grew up in San Francisco and went to a public high school with minorities. She had a 2000 SAT score. Her parents were refugees from Laos and was an only child. She worked at a retail store part-time after-school to help support her family while still managing a 3.6 GPA. She did some ECs including peer mediation and debate club. She wrote an essay about how she enjoys to secretly change the hangers or swap stickers so that small shirts have a medium sized sticker in front or how size 1 jeans are on a hanger that says size 5. Attends Swarthmore.</p>
<p>@Tyler09’s #904: Indeed, a specific school’s mission statement can say whatever it likes. However, it may not be contradicted by the fine print that asserts “no discrimination on the basis of xyz” (I won’t bother to look up the specific text, but you know what I mean). Furthermore, there are legal limits on the mission statement; if a school’s mission is to educate only white students, would this be legal? I’m not a lawyer so I won’t presume to answer my own question, but certainly it would be a matter worth taking to court. Currently the Supreme Court has allowed “positive discrimination” in the form of AA; but one’s opinion is not bound to the Supreme Court’s interpretation, which may well change in a few decades (cf. Plessy v. Ferguson and Brown v. Board of Education).</p>
<p>@Swedefish’s #906: I don’t see anyone dismissing Asian applicants as an inherently disadvantaged collective. I would argue that no ONE racial group constitutes an inherently disadvantaged collective beyond that inherent in belonging to a racial/ethnic minority (which Asians equally qualify under). Blacks and Latinos have lower SAT scores on average, yes; but you imply that holistic admissions would favor them more than on the basis of SAT scores regardless of racial AA. Nonimpoverished URMs do not need the boost of affirmative action any more than ANY minority group; impoverished URMs would still benefit from socioeconomic affirmative action, which does not discriminate by race.</p>
<p>@AvantTao’s #907: I would apply the same arguments to gender preference at tech schools and LACs, with an exception for single-sex schools that have been ruled legal. I have yet to see a clear legal ruling on single-race schools (historically black colleges are HISTORICALLY black but perfectly open to non-black students), so I would consider the two separate issues with different legal and societal repercussions. --fabrizio’s #913 contributes useful legal knowledge on the issue.</p>
<p>@AvantTao’s #926:
Let me paraphrase what you seem to be implying in this sentence: Racial discrimination is justified by the need for diversity in classrooms. Therefore, diversity trumps equality?</p>
<p>And ^, AvantTao’s @928: Your anecdote is heartening. Wouldn’t socioeconomic affirmative action allow these stories to become commonplace rather than rare gems? I will dare to generalize and say that currently–especially at the not-tippy-top colleges that can’t afford such financial largesse–racial preference is much more prevalent and a bigger “tip” than poverty or first-generation.</p>
<p>This discussion has gone over my head, but I would like to add one last point and then I’ll shut up. If I were black or hispanic, it would bother me greatly how affirmative action causes others to marginalize me. For example, I was at school yesterday discussing with my friends where everyone in our class has applied to college, etc. Almost universally, when we discussed a black or hispanic kid who is a decent student, the response was: “Well, they are black (or hispanic), so they’ll get in.” Last year, when a black girl was accepted into Harvard, there was little celebration amongst her peers. Instead, people just sighed and said stuff like, “Of course, she’s black.” As our generation matures, when we see black and hispanic doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc. from top colleges, I wonder if our first instinct will be to doubt their qualifications based on the belief that they made it to this point because of their skin color. I would hate to go through life with many people being suspicious of my abilities just because of my skin color. </p>
<p>I read a post on this board from a black kid on this board who was a top student with a 2300 plus SAT. He was clearly qualified for HYSP on his own merits, but whenever he told people where he was going to school, they concluded that he must have been accepted because of affirmative action. This hurt him, and I understand his feelings completely. He then wrote that he hated affirmative action for this reason. I would too if I were in his shoes.</p>
<p>That’s an important point. I am confident that there will be students of every which ethnic group at all the most desirable colleges if the colleges announce a policy of accepting applicants without regard to “race.”</p>
<p>I do not believe ANY top school is admitting minority students who can’t handle the work. If they did, some would be citing statistics that would support lower graduation rates for minorities - and this would be a valid argument. The Dean at Yale said that 85% of the applications come from students who are academically qualified. Why is minority status/geographic location/socio-economic status/whatever other narrowing factor that bothers you such a questionable way to go about the inevitable, necessary weeding?</p>
<p>These are private schools who should have the option to admit any student for the reasons they see fit. If they don’t do a good job at this, it will be reflected in the quality of the student they graduate. I don’t see Stanford, or anyone else for that matter, concerned with their end product.</p>
<p>Are you assuming that colleges would only admit on the basis of race?</p>
<p>Sure, I would be for socioeconomic affirmative action, as much for or even more than AA, but I think that AA should still be implemented. While it does have its faults, it encourages minorities to apply to colleges. With AA, minorities can find higher paying jobs. No matter how upper or lower class a latino or black is, they still make less money than whites or Asians who are working similar jobs. Until more minorities get out into the working place, AA should still be in place. I know one Latino who was admitted into Pomona College under AA. He said he was not expecting to get in, but now with his acceptance he was going to try harder because it was the first time someone had told him that he could achieve much more than he thought. I am happy to say he is enjoying and succeeding at Pomona and is on his way to graduating in Politics.</p>
<p>Do you know any upper class white men who are burdened by these feelings? After all, up until very recently, they had preferential treatment in virtually every area of life. Yes, once upon a time, just being a rich, white, protestant male was enough to get you into the ivy league and almost every where else.<br>
I mean, it was just a given that if a white male interviewed for a job, he would get it over a woman or a minority. It was so much a given that women and minorities didn’t even apply…
Still, being rich and white has huge societal benefits and I still don’t see rich white people terribly upset that other people might think their money and priviledge benefitted them.</p>
<p>(this post was in reply to the poster who mentioned a talented black applicant “hating” AA because people assumed he had benefitted from it)</p>
<p>I haven’t seen any links to graduation rate data in this thread, in all the hundreds of posts, but the information is out there for those who desire to look it up. </p>
<p>One CC participant once pointed that showing, for example, that students from one group have a six-year graduation rate (why SIX years and not four years?) of 98 percent while students from another group have a rate of 90 percent means that there is a substantially higher expectation of not graduating for students in the latter group. You go from one out of 50 students not graduating to one out of ten, or put another way, you go to the students in the latter group being five times as likely not to graduate. </p>
<p>It can be interesting to look up your favorite college and to see how it compares to other colleges.</p>
<p>For that to be literally true, one has to adopt a very narrow definition of “rich, white, protestant male,” with most of the narrowing coming from the definition of “rich.” Still today, to be rich is a huge advantage. It’s unclear what efforts colleges are really making to take into account a student’s limited means when the student applies to college. </p>
<p>I’ll note for the historical record that Harvard, Minnesota, Iowa State, and many other colleges were admitting black students since before 1900, and most of the state universities (and Cornell, now an Ivy) were admitting women before that year. There has been college access for nonmale and nonwhite people for a long time in the United States.</p>