What worries me about "safety schools"...

Parent Cafe
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<p>jmmom’s point about a range between Reed and U frat… is a good one, but my daughter is fairly stubborn about her geographical preferences–from DC up through Mid-Atlantics to New England, so that narrows it a bit.</p>

<p>garland also has a good point–it’s not just the party scene but the attitude toward learning for its own sake.</p>

<p>Dadofsam, I’ll check out those old threads!</p>

<p>Drew was attractive from a landscape , location and facilities point of view and had some good semester-off campus opportunities but it gave me a weird feeling that they were “hiding something” . When we asked if it was possible to sit in on classes, they said you had to make an appointment to do that weeks in advance. Several other schools just hand you a list of almost every class that’s going on that day. Tour guide seemed more well-trained than spontaneous and a bit evasive about the social scene. I had the feeling that students were temporarily “using” the university rather than making it “happen”–if you can understand what I mean. This may be true of campuses that are almost everybody’s second or third choice school.</p>

<p>cheers, it’s true that rich and spoiled goes with the territority when colleges are so expensive–I guess the difference is between those who are curious, creative, interesting and empathetic people who happen to be rich and those who just believe they deserve to be privileged because their parents can foot the bill–end of story.</p>

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<p>Upper class people from the south always dress well when out in a public arena. Church is still strictly coat and tie for the men and dresses for the ladies.</p>

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<p>I’d say try for your D to make the best of what she can. Being from a family with not much money (and I have a twin so two tuitions at once) I will probably have to go to my safety school due to financial reasons. Yeah, it’s not as “prestigious” as the other schools I’ve gotten into (or hope to - still waiting on cornell, columbia, and harvard) but if that’s what I gotta do then that’s what I’ll do. Consider your family lucky to be able to not worry about sending your D to a top level school if she makes it. Anyways, good luck.</p>

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<p>Pyewacket, Maybe you could refresh our memories and give us your daughter’s current short list. We could then build off that and come up with some ideas that you may not have thought of or at least thought of from all angles.</p>

<p>I agree, just the word “safety” makes any college sound so last resort-ish and unappealing. You don’t want your child stuck at a school that makes him/her or you queasy at the idea of four years there. I like to think of them as less selectives. There are other reasons than quality of education that make a school less selective. It could be gender – many women’s colleges are wonderfully less selective. It could be a great program at a less than great university. It could be location – a dicey neighborhood or geographically out of the way place. So it’s important to keep an open mind toward all girls schools, honors programs at humdrum universities and second choice locations. I think your daughter is open to the first and second ideas, but less so to the idea of getting out of the East Coast. Maybe you need a detour to a couple of places in the Midwest.</p>

<p>I am also of the really safe safety, or less selective with HIGH percentage of acceptance. Having said that, I also think that you only need one and that where the expansion should be done is in the match area.</p>

<p>One thing that’s been bothering me about the current fiercer than ever competition is that after the dust settles and the confirmations are in and the waitlists tapped, I suspect that the final percentages will be much the same as they have been. This is statistically too complex for my little non-mathematical brain, but what I mean is that there are not really that many more kids applying to top colleges; the problem is that kids are applying to MORE colleges so the total number of applications and hence each college’s number of applications is greatly increased. It seems to me that the only way to counter this craziness is to also greatly increase the number of applications. Does this make sense? If so, will it ever be reflected in the admissions figures, e.g. do they include the waitlist? So again, this is intuitive thinking only, it seems to me that middle-range kids will have to apply to a greater number of matches – and be prepared to wait out the waitlists which is also a stressful event.</p>

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<p>What you’ve said seems intuitive to me, momrath, but I suspect it isn’t true. I could be wrong, but I’ve read that it is not JUST that kids are applying to more places each, but that the HS senior cohort is huge and getting bigger each year. And while it is not as big as the baby boom, its parents are more demanding and affluent, and far more expect to go to college than ever before…</p>

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<p>My D is considering Barnard, Brandeis, Bryn Mawr, Mount Holyoke, maybe Skidmore.
Maybe a visit to Bard en route to Skidmore?</p>

<p>Would consider Brown/Wesleyan/Swarthmore–but these seem unrealistic reaches.</p>

<p>Maybe Muhlenberg?
Have visited Drew, Wheaton (MA) in search of safeties, and hope to visit Goucher.</p>

<p>Wondering about American U.? Allegheny and Susquehanna U. are geographically unappealing but might be possible choices. Quinnipiac would be a good saftety because it has rolling admissions (and the right geography)–so you’d get peace of mind more quickly-but “fit” seems doubtful. Also thinking of UMass Amherst with a shot at the honors college. Had at look at Rhodes’ Website and was personally impressed but don’t think I could get my D to TN.</p>

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<p>By the way, crypto, full tuition for 4 years wouldn’t come easy to us–but it’s a stretch we are lucky (and perhaps foolhardy) enough to be able to contemplate and we do have only one child to educate.</p>

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<p>Have you thought about Clark? I know it shares a lot of applicants with American, but is in MA not DC</p>

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<p>Pyewacket: Brown, at least, is extremely popular with college applicants and is thus essentially speculative for most everyone. If your D really likes it, apply RD just to do it, then forget about it and think about more realistic possibilities.</p>

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<p>

This describes/described us as well. Our EFC precludes need-based aid, as well. S did get substantial merit aid from his#2 choice (a match school). Are you taking into consideration those match/match-safeties which are known for generous merit aid? I don’t know the list myself, but others here on cc do.</p>

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<p>jmmom: there also are threads on that topic on last year’s archives - best schools for merit aid; I remember them well.</p>

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<p>pyewacket, </p>

<p>Similar D. We looked at match & safety schools that are great schools but slightly less known in our area (so D would bring geo diversity). </p>

<p>Schools like Kenyon, Grinnell, Trinity, Lawrence University, Whitman, Lewis & Clark Beloit, Allegheny, Union do not all get quite the national draw they want, so if your area is underrepresented it can help.</p>

<p>Not sure where you are but there are certainly similar schools not on your region’s radar.</p>

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<p>Pyewacket, A Broad Base of B’s! Better broach Beloit? I definitely see what you mean. Your daughter’s reach/match list is fairly consistent in “feel”, now to find a less selective in the same family. I think going for the “geographically unappealing” would be the right move. Maybe try to visit 3-4 that are not in the Northeast with the intention of adding one as the really safe, put-in-your-back-pocket-and-forget-about-it category. Kenyon was the only school that our son visited that was not on the Eastcoast, but his reaction to it was so positive that the “less selective” was taken care of right out of the box. Three years later I believe that Kenyon has become a lot more selective, so it may not qualify as a safety, but I think in general that location is not an insurmountable difficulty – once you actually visit. Same thing with isolated campuses. Once you visit and see how the kids interact as a cogent community the idea of being in the middle of no-where isn’t so off-putting.</p>

<p>I would also add a few more to the match category. Kenyon, Colby, Sarah Lawrence, Smith and Furman come to mind.</p>

<p>As far as the reaches go, they are just that. Having looked back at your daughter’s qualifications I would say that there’s nothing that would work against her, and in fact her scores are very good! The possibility is definitely there, so she should go ahead and reach! I think her international experience will be a bigger hook than you anticipate (if she focuses on it in her resume, statement, essays, recommendations etc.) In fact, I feel so strongly about this that I’d add a few more to the reach or upper match category like Dartmouth, Wellesley, Tufts, Middlebury, Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin.</p>

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<p>Pyewacket and jmmom, My D’s qualifications seem to be very similar to yours . SAT 1370, GPA 3.7uw. She is also waiting to hear from Stanford (deferred EA - legacy) and has also applied to Tufts, Wesleyan, Vassar, Colgate, Whitman, Lewis & Clark, along with 4 UCs. She’s been accepted to Univ. of Washington, and Univ. of Puget Sound (merit scholarship). She likes Puget Sound very much and may very well decide to attend there, even if she gets into any of the more prestigious schools she’s applied to, with the exception of Stanford. </p>

<p>I see that Whitman and Lewis & Clark have been mentioned as possible match/safety schools, but not Puget Sound. My D and I visited L&C and Puget Sound and while she liked L&C, she definately prefers Puget Sound. My concern is that its lack of name recognition will be detrimental with regards to grad school and employment opportunities. I’d be very interested to hear anyone’s thoughts about these concerns.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the many interesting suggestions. We visited Sarah Lawrence, which D did not like–said it was too “artsy” for her–she likes writing-journalism and non-avant-garde theater but is not a thorough-going bohemian or devotee of the arts–although she does relate better to that crowd than the super preppies because she is essentially liberal, fairly flexible and uninterested in sports or fashion.</p>

<p>We rejected Clark because I know MA pretty well and Worcester felt like a place she wouldn’t want to live-not much to do but drinking.</p>

<p>As for Smith, since she is a legacy at MHC , that would be easier to get into. And with a family loyalty to Mount Holyoke–just couldn’t do Smith–it would be like drinking Pepsi if you worked for Coca-Cola.</p>

<p>Momrath, some of your suggestions seem too preppy for D’s taste. I’ve always had a soft spot in my heart for Dartmouth, though, dated there when I was in college and would have applied if they had accepted women back then. But I am a pushover for a beautiful New England campus–my D likes cinemas, theaters and libraries better than she likes trees. Might visit Dartmouth with her, though, because it’s en route to relatives of ours ( and I’d like to go back there!)</p>

<p>If she were geographically more flexible, Carleton, Grinnell, Macalaster,Earlham and Kenyon might all be possibilities --probably easier to sell than the West Coast. Or Ithaca College?</p>

<p>Momrath, you are right that “geographically unappealing” would be better for her than socially unappealing-but visiting places in the Midwest that are far from each other would be difficult for us–we could probaly do one (or two that are very near each other)–so narrowing down the list before visiting is essential. Also visiting campuses between Feb and April of senior year would be very difficult for us -so we will have to choose without that–if there is a choice!</p>

<p>LuckyMe, I would say that solid accomplishment and outstanding recommendations plus an impressive interview or application-writing style will get you into a good grad school without super “name recognition”. Check out the college websites and publications for “where our alumni are now” because one or two outstanding people can sell a grad school or a company on an institution that is not a big name. Of course the “names” can help you get a foot in the door but are not essential to success. Also look at profs at good universities, you will often see that their BAs are from relative no-names (more likely geographically close to their school of employment) but their Ph.Ds are, nevertheless, from top places in their fields.</p>

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<p>Pyewacket, We’ve visited 4 of the schools you mentioned:</p>

<p>Muhlenberg sounds like a good fit for your D. I found the campus attractive, the students bright. The arts are popular, but I didn’t get that “artsy” feel. The location fits her needs and is convenient to Phila. and NYC.</p>

<p>Susquehanna, although a pretty school, and the people nice, is extremely remote. I also got the feeling that Susquehanna is considered the poor stepchild to Bucknell which is just up the road.</p>

<p>If UMass Honors is still in the running, check the details of the program carefully. There have been large budget cuts in the past 5 years and a big loss of permanent professors as well. The campus, in places, is looking downright shabby. However, Amherst is a great town.</p>

<p>Wheaton turned out to be my S’s first choice and he will be going there. Everyone there is approachable and kind. English and the arts are popular.</p>

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<p>Muhlenberg, Goucher, Wheaton are all good possibilities. But I think you have the safety thing sewn up with Mount Holyoke if she likes it. You can look more in the match/reach range and focus on those. I think you have a nice spread there. Can’t remember where you are from; are you NE or elsewhere? A look at CMU might be in order, Case, Oberlin, schools a bit of the beaten track. Beloit, Macalester, Carleton, Lawrence all good possibilities. Carolyn’s list looks like it might have some considerations as well.</p>

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<p>Regarding regional biases:</p>

<p>I believe you can urge/insist your kid apply to a few reach/match schools outside the area she’s most hoping for… thanks to common app, it is not a hard thing to do-- usually a simple PP supplement-- and several schools even waive fees when you apply online.</p>

<p>It will give her more choices. Yes, right now she wants New England… but things can change (esp after visiting!) When it’s a choice between Carleton vs. Dickinson, she may well be swayed to consider the midwest. Explain to her that the same “feel” and quality of the reachy schools is available at “matchy” schools if you are more flexible as to area.</p>

<p>Sus, Muhl & Wheaton are more difficult to get in to than similar-ranked schools in the midwest, because everyone wants New England. Schools like Lawrence Univ are undoubtedly the peers of even <em>more</em> selective schools, because many coastal kids won’t do Wisconsin.</p>

<p>In reality, once you’re there in your school, it’s the peers, the teachers, the campus, the town-- not the state or the weather-- that dictate how good a time you will have and how good an education you will get. Your D sounds like a kid who will want the best <em>quality</em> education she can get. </p>

<p>Again, your D’s profile is similar to my D, esp the non-drinker, non-shallow aspect. My D began by having a very narrow geographic focus. We insisted she push her area out substantially, because we wanted her to have more choices and we knew she was only giving a cursory glance at schools/making snap judgements. (She finally applied across the country.) We helped her select a list of 10 schools in unusual areas, and she picked 5 to apply to. </p>

<p>Over the term of the app process, she “got to know” these schools and their strengths became clearer. Ultimately she concluded she’d be happier at a school where the <em>kids</em> were a “match” for her, no matter the location.</p>

<p>Remember dating, when a person began to get better looking as the evening wore on–? It’s like that. Kids can make snap judgements. Sometimes they stick to them, and other times they reassess…</p>

<p>If you spend an extra $200 on out-of-area apps, how can it hurt?</p>

<p>Also I forget if it has been mentioned but many of these schools, for sure Beloit, Lawrence, & Allegheny, offer EA. EA is so nice. Toss in a safety or match EA, so early in the process stress is down…</p>

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<p>“my D likes cinemas, theaters and libraries better than she likes trees”</p>

<p>There are over 50 colleges in the Boston area. There must be matches and safeties galore.</p>

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<p>Off the top of my head - Fordham, Connecticut College, Lehigh, BC, NYU, American (lovely location - suburbs of DC - though it might have that rich kid feeling), Villanova, Temple, George Washington, Tufts, Wellesley, Fairfield, James Madison, Gettysberg, Bates, Colby, BU, U Conn, Trinity, Emory.</p>

<p>Very random, a mix of reaches, reach/matches and match/safeties, but its a starting place.</p>