What worries me about "safety schools"...

Parent Cafe
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<p>My D has the grades and SATs to have a decent shot at some very good schools-- just a step or two below Ivy-level --and I think any of these would work out fine for her. But she’s not in a category of “star performer with leadership ECs and phenomenal talents” --rather a pretty bright, hardworking and serious student with a few well-developed interests, none of which are sports. No special “hooks.” So there’s some chance she will have to go to a “safety” school.</p>

<p>Here’s the problem-- many of the definite safety schools for her seem to be either very large and anonymous or small and narrow–where partying and drinking is more important than academics and the students are labellled as rich and spoiled. Where they speak for themselves, students say things like “for fun we go to the Mall or Wal-Mart” or “the local bars”. </p>

<p>My D doesn’t have to go to a high prestige college but she would be miserable in an environment where the emphasis was not on academics and cultural–theater/film/writing /journalism-- activities. She needs to be around fairly bright kids–but they needn’t be all valedictorians, Einsteins, and future Senators. There seem to be schools where realistic admission means 1400 + SATs and then schools where the average is more like 1150. What about in-between kids?</p>

<p>In the current highly competitive college admissions environment some pretty bright, motivated kids must end up in these "“fish out of water” environments.</p>

<p>Have any of your kids had to handle this? How did they survive?</p>

<p>Any suggestions?</p>

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<p>Pyewacket, from what my friends tell me who’ve been through this, in the past 5-8 years or so where the competition has gotten so intensely fierce to get into the top tier schools, there’s been a “filtering down” effect where very good students like your daughter are going to the next level schools and finding like minded students there…am I making sense?..</p>

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<p>Is your daughter a junior now and still in the process of selecting colleges to apply to? If you post a summary of her background and interests and what she is looking for in a college (size, location), you will get a lot of good suggestions on this board. (I don’t know if you have done it already) I think there are probably a lot of colleges that would fit the description of what you and your D are looking for.</p>

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<p>I suggest that you look into the honors programs at your daughter’s safety schools. Many schools have “learning communities” or “living communities” where they will group like-minded kids together who are interested in academics. That will help her get together with other achieving students. I agree with dke that many very capable students are filtering down to “lesser” schools. Some are drawn by large scholarship offers, some simply want to stay closer to home and others are going to their safety schools because they didn’t get into their “reaches”.</p>

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<p>While some schools actually have an Honors College within them, others offer Honors courses to Honors students, and the selection is often not very wide. So do ask lots of questions.</p>

<p>However, as others have said, there are very bright students at practically every tier of college, who are there on full scholarships, and chose that school over 1st tier.</p>

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<p>My daughter goes to a small catholic college where the average test scores are truly average. But there are standouts at this school as well. It is not as though the honors given out is pages up on pages. My friends daughter who attained Phi Beta Kappa at Pitt was one of 30 or so kids to do so at such a large school. There are some remarkable kids there, particularly in the honors program. I don’t think that is so much the issue. The problem can come if you do not pick a school carefully on academic programs, is that you can “run out” at some schools, particularly if your child changes tracks on his field of study. I haves seen this happen where a small school with a great department in the sciences, for example, may not have the arts offering that can challenge a child. That is great fodder for transfer, as that what colleges seek in transfer studets–excellent grades from someone who has outgrown what is available at current school. </p>

<p>But there are safeties and there are safeties. For a student who is looking at Colgate, Bucknell, BC as target schools while also hoping for UPenn, Cornell, GT for reaches, may also look at schools like Conn coll, Skidmore (particularly if they are male) as match safeties, and American, Gettysburg, Dickinson as safeties. They will do fine as finding peers at any of these schools, and will also get great name recognition. If they do well there, they will be in fine shape. But to go to a schoolw where too many programs are business or education or criminal justice would make a big difference to such a kid, as those schools may not have the number of academians among the students to provide this comfort level that you are discussing. It can be a valid concern.</p>

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<p>Pyewacket - I believe in a Definite Safety, like you. But I think focusing on safety/match and selecting the right group of these can be expected to eliminate the need to end up at a “non-loved” Safety.</p>

<p>My S was perhaps somewhat like your D, so I hope I won’t be too long-winded here, but giving some details in hopes it will help you compare situations. S is strong student (94uw/122w), strong program (all Honors and a few APs), “played” soccer, but on the bench when Varsity. One strong interest was his music ECs, which showed as consistent and devoted on his app, but no leadership (a few state awards for his jazz band). No “hook” per se. Does that sound familiar? Further, His weak point was SATs, just never could perform well on standardizeds (1310). Key point of hope: His recs were tops (I’m told, I only saw one of them). His essay was very, very good (imho and GC did say so, too). Can you count on good recs and essay?</p>

<p>As parents, I think we can forget, or be afraid to believe, that many schools Do really look at the whole app and see kids like yours and mine for what they have to offer, even if no “hook” and a non-HYPS stat profile.</p>

<p>S found plenty schools of interest in the 1200-1350 SAT range. EG, for S - Reach =Stanford; Match or Match/Safety = Tulane, Lehigh… Safety=Santa Clara, Hofstra. The SATs for these match/safety or match schools are in the 1200/1330 “average” range(the SAFETYiest was in the 1100s). None of them felt like partypartyparty schools to us upon visits. </p>

<p>S was admitted to all (waiting for Stanford and don’t expect a “yes”, but I am a legacy; he loved it, so give it a try). S received major merit award to his second choice, which has an Honors College to which he’s admitted tho not too relevant as he will be in College of Eng. He wants Honors dorm there, to maximize getting the same type of atmosphere your D is seeking. However, at each of these schools, we found sufficient supportive atmosphere for the academically minded student, even without the Honors option.</p>

<p>I guess my summary points are: [ul][<em>]a well-chosen group of match/safety and match schools are even more important than the safety [</em>]look beyond SAT in estimating D’s prospects AND in evaluating school atmosphere; [<em>]visits ought to help you id schools, even in the 1100s range where there will be a place for the academic type kids [</em>]as others have said, Honors program/Honors dorm/substance-free dorms are a few methods to find that atmosphere on a variety of campuses.[/ul]</p>

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<p>jamimom and jmmom --thanks a lot for your support . Right now we are looking at Goucher and Drew as possible safeties and maybe American U ?</p>

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<p>Pyewacket–I’m not an expert on those schools, though Drew is not far from us and a few kids go to it from our school. I think you raise an excellent question, when a kid has great though not out-of-this-world stats, and really treasures the idea of a true intellectual experience.</p>

<p>My D for complex reasons ended up in a state Honors program (not ours) and did not find that atmosphere there. Even the brightest kid by and large were there for the degree, not the late night ideas for their own sake kind of discussions. She did transfer and found that.</p>

<p>I would suggest that you cast a wide “match” net, so that with any kind of luck at all, she won’t feel out of step in a safetyish school. I’d also read up as much as possible to get an idea of those schools in which the smart kids seem to trend toward being interested in ideas intrinsically, and those in which they seem more outwardly targeted (how can I study enough to get the grades I need for X profession, and still have time to party type students.)</p>

<p>I would guess Drew to be more the latter, and my wild guess would be that Goucher is more the former (based on Carolyn’s interest in it.)</p>

<p>But with enough matches, she will be more likely to feel she’s in a place where she can feel adequately challenged. (and maybe find a reasonable reach ED, to give her another possibility)</p>

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<p>Pye: My D was similar to your D. She had the grades, test scores to get into “schools a step or two below ivy” --but because of the competition out of her large high school–and the “filtering down” effect we were quit worried about where she would go.</p>

<p>My best advice is to find a safety that she loves first. My daughter found a large state school w/rolling admission, a mid-size public, and a small to mid size private that she liked.</p>

<p>After finding these schools she visited what she knew would be her first choice/reach school. </p>

<p>The week before she received her ED notification for her reach school, she was questioning her match school–whether she still wanted to go there. But she still liked her safety schools.</p>

<p>good luck</p>

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<p>Consider Reed. Your description of academic/cultural emphasis is a match–and the stats may be a match as well.</p>

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<p>Not sure where pyewcket’s D fits, but I think we don’t want to form a dichotomy of [ul][<em>]party, hang-out-at-the-mall schools vs. [</em>] late night ideas for their own sake kind of discussion-schools.[/ul] There are other profiles[ul]
[<em>]kids who may not be “intellectual” but are serious students, wanting to perform well [</em>]kids who work hard/play hard, with I imagine all different definitions of “play”, some more appealing to one kid and some to another and [*]on and on. [/ul]Ie, there’s a whole world between a Reed and a state U frat boy/sorority girl experience.</p>

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<p>One thought on the Honors dorm - My son is currently a freshman in a Honors dorm at a large state school. We thought that it would be a good idea for him to live with a group of motivated students his first year. He has made great friends, he is currently visiting one of their families on spring break, and is planning on moving off campus with his a group of them next year. They seem to party as much as the other kids. As to grades, one of his suitemates placed into and then failed Calc 2, another placed into and then almost failed Calc 3. My son is retaking Calc 1 to improve his grade (and hopefully understanding). Someone made the comment that it may not have been a great idea academically to live with a bunch of smart, capable kids who didn’t necessarily have to work hard in High School during their adjustment to first semester senior year.</p>

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<p>U of Richmond sounds like it would be good to consider. Also Rhodes. Maybe not true safeties, but would provide an intellectual experience for a 1300 level scorer. By the way, 1300 is pretty good (except for on CC).</p>

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<p>Jmmom, not trying to set up dichotomies, more like a range. But in any case, I wasn’t thinking drinking/nondrinking, partying/non, etc. But both my D and I experienced being in places where, apart from the “party” aspect, there was less academics for their own sake, more of what do I need to do to get an A. The OP described reservations which seem to be along these lines, which is what I am responding to.</p>

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<p>

There is a world outside of cc? :eek:</p>

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<p>There will be bright students in every student body, but to guarantee this set of interests, your D needs a larger social community, ie a city.</p>

<p>Second American U because it’s in Wash DC and the kids love the location. Add GWU, Mount Vernon campus?</p>

<p>btw, Off CC , (yes Virginia, there is such a world), all private universities are considered playgrounds for the rich and spoiled.</p>

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<p>Hi had 1320 and pretty good ECS, all the right stuff, NHS, Club president, two varsity sports, lots of community service, from a very,very competitive private school …you know the resume…I chose Richmond, it had the right combination of academics and fun. I meets lots of really nice and really smart kids when I visited and it felt comfortable. It is very white, preppy and conservative, but then so am I :P</p>

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<p>Pyewacket: There were several lengthy discussions on this sort of topic last year. They are archived in the 2004 parents forum (click on College Discussion Archives at the very bottom of this page). Lots of good information in them.</p>

<p>Here’s one: <a href=“http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/70/86858.html[/url]”>http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/70/86858.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Another one is by Artiesdad and is called “C-student with 1100 SAT” [don’t be put off by the title]; a third is by Bxian and is called “college visit trip reports for the average student”.</p>

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<p>Tribegirl -</p>

<p>You nailed it when you said Richmond is white and preppy. It’s the only time I’ve toured when I saw both a mom and dad of a prospective student really dressed (to impress?)</p>