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Question is tolerance in everything and anything always good ?</p>
<p>Ok, well if your kid were dismissed from a part-time job for being tardy or talking too much, would you be ashamed then?</p>
<p>(My parents say that it is a big deal…I’m not sure if it’s to make me learn a lesson or it really is a big deal…What do you guys think?)</p>
<p>wharfrat2 - I thought of that, but in that case they’d really need help. ;)</p>
<p>celloguy - you aren’t kidding, I see. I’m sure you’re not really ashamed, are you? It sounds like you and your offspring have very different perspectives on the world. I hate to say it, but your opportunity for philosophical programming was between the ages 3-14. After that, they start listening to others as much, if not more, than their parents.</p>
<p>Need advice - I’d be disappointed that you didn’t have the maturity to handle the responsibily, but I wouldn’t be ashamed. (after all, it’s you, not them who blew it here).
To me, little would need to be said. You have your consequence for your actions in real life. Lesson learned. Hopefully.</p>
<p>asap – yup, you’re right, and apparently I missed my chance with one out of four; the others are peaceniks. I’ll always wonder what made the difference. I love that boy so, and he’s so proud of his wings, that I feel split in two – pride and shame. But I guess the OP was talking about something else altogether.</p>
<p>ASAP…if you want the specific real reason, it’s because I talked of my social life, and that’s why my employers let me go. They said my friends were bad influences–because they party (they’re college students too) and they thought my friends would bring me down so they’d take the precaution first. THat’s the real reason.</p>
<p>That soldier who allegedly raped an Iraqi girl and then killed her and her family . . . I read that his family member have said they don’t know him. I guess that’s shame.</p>
<p>I would be ashamed if my kids deliberately or thoughtlessly created pain for someone else.</p>
<p>I certainly don’t think tolerance in all things is a good idea. We should be intolerant of social or racial injustice, anything that hurts children . . .I could probably go on and on.</p>
<p>I don’t think I could possibly ever feel shame - if something awful happened, I might feel compelled to rush to provide professional help and support, but shame? Can’t really see it. </p>
<p>Perspective is everything though. Just last week D and I had a discussion about religion - she is raised catholic, and educated in catholic schools K-12, altar server, eucharistic minister, RCIA teacher, for the past two years of college she has tried just about every catholic church in the city where she goes to school, and for some reason doesn’t like any of them. I’m not encouraging her one way or the other btw - in our house, I’m the one who has to be dragged into church; she’s the one forcing ME to go etc. </p>
<p>So anyway, this past month she’s been going to Baptist services. She described them to me; from her description the services are VERY different from the catholic mass. We talked a bit about how she’s tried every catholic church near her college and why she doesn’t like them. I offered that perhaps it’s because our home parish is run by Capuchin Franciscans; the churches in her college city are all run by diocesan priests; we discussed the differences between the Franciscan order and the priests who are supported by various dioceses. She agreed and I committed that I would help her look to see if we could find a catholic church near her school run by Franciscans. At the end of this discussion she for some reason felt the need to overly reassure me, “mom, I’m not considering converting and in no way would I ever stop practicing catholicism - I just want to keep going to this Baptist church for a while, I am getting more out of it right now…” </p>
<p>I told her I don’t care (and I really don’t) - I answered that I fully support whatever church she attends or even what religion she practices, as long as she doesn’t do something really weird, like give away all of her worldly possessions, take to wearing long robes, adopt a lifestyle of poverty, wander the streets chanting and begging for alms, start or join a cult etc. (I’m visualizing how horrifying this would be.)</p>
<p>She answered “oh, you mean like St. Francis”?</p>
<p>LOL speechless here once again.</p>
<p>Jimbob you aren’t Asian by any chance are you?</p>
<p>“I would be ashamed if my kids deliberately or thoughtlessly created pain for someone else.”</p>
<p>I agree. I also would be ashamed if my kid did something like lied to try to get into college, cheated on a test or plagiarized. I told both of my kids many times that I’d rather see them get an “F” grade that they earned than an “A” that they cheated to get.</p>
<p>As for careers and choice of college, as my younger S put it, “Mom, if I said that I wanted to be a sewer cleaner, you’d find something nice to say about it.”</p>
<p>The exception would be if my kids wanted to do something like being a drug dealer, porn actor or being the government employee who gets to legally execute criminals.</p>
<p>I also would be ashamed if my sons fathered children and didn’t parent them or support them.</p>
<p>“I love that boy so, and he’s so proud of his wings, that I feel split in two – pride and shame.” celloguy, I thought you were being flip. I didn’t know you had a son who had enlisted!</p>
<p>That being said, I can’t imagine being in your shoes. My son is only nine, but is a military maven. I think I’d be busting with pride and terrified all at the same time if he were to join up. I’m from a family of WWII vets who had a 100% enlistment rate, tons of decorations, but a huge drop-off in the next generation. </p>
<p>I believe our nation’s finest young people join the various service branches & you must have raised a great young man.</p>
<p>“Ok, well if your kid were dismissed from a part-time job for being tardy or talking too much, would you be ashamed then?”</p>
<p>I might be a bit disappointed, but I probably wouldn’t be ashamed. I’d also hope that he learned his lesson and became more responsible. I might be ashamed, however, if he lost his job for tardiness after being hired with the help of a relative or family friend. What would make me feel ashamed would be that his thoughtless behavior would reflect badly on them and might hurt them in their own job or relations with the employer.</p>
<p>What would make me ashamed would be if my kid were fired for an ethical violation like stealing. I wouldn’t be ashamed if my kid were fired for refusing to do something unethical: His taking a stand like that would make me rpoud.</p>
<p>For me,</p>
<p>disappointment = Something I profoundly wish they had not done: getting pregnant, failing classes, getting fired, etc.</p>
<p>shame = their conduct is a violation of the fundamental moral code I have tried as a mom to instill, it is a fundamental departure from core teachings: hurting someone else, stealing, being arrogant or cruel.</p>
<p>Whoa…you guys are quite lenient! Getting pregnant would probably bring my parents great shame, but then again they are probably what I would consider conservative.</p>
<p>My dad said something weird to me the other day. He said that basically by age 21 I can marry if I want…which is when I graduate from college. Isn’t this really early? I feel as if my parents have told me what to do for my whole life and then boom, by age 21 are going to let me go completely. Right now I’m 19 and I feel as if they are letting me go more because they want me to decide everything in terms of classes, ecs…but it’s not like getting married.</p>
<p>Need advice, I am not so sure it is leniency so much as a recognition that our offspring are not our “do overs”, but in fact separate persons who will live out their lives and raise their children in a very different world. </p>
<p>I do not take credit for my child’s accomplishments - I’m not the one acheiving in the classroom or in the athletic environment or on her job, so, I am very pleased for her, and feel very fortunate to be counting my blessings, but the rewards and accomplishments are HERS, and have nothing to do with me: my role has been to provide the support, resources (material and emotional), and of course lots of love, and to set the very best example I possibly can. But I take zero credit for her successes - that strikes me as parasitic. </p>
<p>Therefore the reverse works - if she were to, say, get pregnant, fail classes, or even break the law or get into some trouble, I would not be ashamed: I have executed my parental responsibilities to the very best of my abilities and with the fullest possible range of my resources, and therefore (in my opinion) cannot be held accountable if she should do something horrible, so I do not accept that adverse behavior or failure to accomplish reflects on me or in any way reflects the quality of my parenting or the stability of my household, and therefore could not imagine feeling “shame”. If any of these things were to happen, I would of course feel terrible for her - might even be extremely angry (temporarily) - but I would do everything possible to provide the appropriate support.</p>
<p>NeedAdvice, in the aggregate 21 is very early to be married, but what I suspect your father was saying was that at 21, as a college graduate, you have the freedom to architect your life decisions, including marriage. </p>
<p>Re choosing classes, I insisted my D do so beginning in high school (with the help of on staff college counselors) and in college, from day one. Part of this is because I have not had any formal education beyond 10th grade, and I did not want to misguide or misinform, but moreso because I think it is very, very important to learn decisioning processes early, and make lots of mistakes and then work on fixing those mistakes while there is still a safety net available: basically I told my D to “go for it” on everything and to sample as much as possible from the terrific menu of college. </p>
<p>If I can make an assumption, I imagine your parents want the same - they want you to experiment as much as possible, and to chose different things - they want you to learn and grow in accordance with your interests and strengths, and unencumbered by their influence - not to say they think their influence is “negative”, but rather they want you to be who and what you are, vs. their “do over”.</p>
<p>Expressed differently, I think parenting at this stage is a balancing act with continual adjustments along the way - we want to provide support, encouragement, love, and when requested, guidance and help, but we don’t want to influence to the point of interfering with the natural process that allows young adults to develop in accordance with their interests, talents and dreams.</p>
<p>Late… I guess what I’m having a hard time differentiating between is a parent’s shame and a parent’s disappointment. I dislike both, but it seems shame is worse? So shame doesn’t apply merely to “worse” and more irreversible things, like say pregnancy, but only applies to matters of bad parenting?</p>
<p>NeedAdvice, I do not know if this helps you, but I cannot relate at all to “shame” or “disappointment”, because I simply cannot imagine ever feeling that way towards my offspring.</p>
<p>For example, if she were to get pregnant? I would rush to provide financial and societal support. Commit a crime? I’d be getting on the phone with psychologists, counselors and lawyers. Drug abuse? I’d look for help from the medical community. Depression or mental illness? Same answer. A sudden drop in grades, or later, perhaps, inability to get or hold a job? Again, I’d be referring her to counselors. What I would NOT be doing is wasting emotional energy feeling disappointment or shame - doesn’t strike me as productive, and besides, I do not accept responsibility for what a young adult does, or fails to do. (Just like I do not accept that I am supposed to be rewarded for her accomplishments.) </p>
<p>I can relate a bit to “self-disappointment” - for example, I was - and still am - very disappointment that my D was deferred, then rejected, from Harvard. So instead of going to Harvard, she’s stuck at this terrific top-ranked school where she is happier than I could have ever hoped for, has had a wonderful four years, loves her studies, has excellent future prospects, life long friends, outstanding professor recommendations, incredible athletic accomplishments, awesome career prospects, zero debt, etc. </p>
<p>But I’m still very disappointed about the Harvard rejection - not at my daughter, or in anything she did, or failed to do, but rather at the result. The disappointment is in my own failure to see some way to swing that door open for her: I positioned her carefully at Harvard’s front door but couldn’t crack it open. Of course, my D has long since forgotten the “H” word, but I have not forgotten what I see as my own failure to help her walk through that door. So, this will sound a little sick or obsessive, but every year when the Ivy decisions come out? I read all the posts and assess the stats and accomplishments of all the wonderful young men and women who get rejected, just to try to convince myself that there is nothing more I could have done, no resource I failed to provide, no opportunity I deprived her of that could have won a favorable admissions decision from Harvard. (She doesn’t know this of course and would certainly be horrified and appalled if she knew. And re grad school/law school, she isn’t even thinking Ivy, but rather what programs are going to be the best fit for her career goals - the colleges that fit her criteria seem to be in Chicago, Pittsburgh, etc. = I’m wisely keeping my mouth shut for this round.) </p>
<p>How does that relate? If your parents appear to be disappointed, they are possibly dismayed that they cannot do more to help you. They may also have very unrealistic expectations. Last, they may be at a point in life where they need to realize that their collective sense of self-worth MUST come from their accomplishments, not yours.</p>
<p>What can you do? I’d recommend encouraging your parents to get out and do things for themselves that they have been putting off. Maybe take a class, learn a language, work on the house, join a gym, improve their diets, or take just about any action that leads to self-improvement. I suspect what you may be feeling is they are experiencing a bit of “self disappointment” vs. any lack of pride in your accomplishments.</p>
<p>I’m not an expert, and not even particularly well-informed, but I would guess that there is probably a certain danger among parents of especially very accomplished children that they (quite accidently) drift into this position of living vicariously through the achievements of their children, rather than getting personal satisfaction through their own achievements.</p>
<p>^^why do you call your kids “offsprings”? that sound kinda wierd. just say kids</p>