What would you think of this dual enrollment opportunity for your son or daughter?

Kentucky has created two separate dual enrollment/credit opportunities for high school students in the state. One is called Gatton Academy (http://www.wku.edu/academy/index.php) and is on the campus of Western Kentucky University. Gatton has expanded and now admits an incoming class of 100 students each year. The other is Craft Academy (http://www.moreheadstate.edu/craft-academy/) on the campus of Morehead State University.

The programs are very selective based on test scores and other academic criteria. Students apply during their sophomore year and if ultimately accepted they leave their high school and become full-time students at the respective college campus for their final two years of high school. They live in a separate dorm dedicated to the high school group, but they are taking college courses (with a STEM focus) alongside other undergraduates.

The entire cost of the program (tuition and fees, housing, meals, books, everything) is free to the accepted student and their family. The state fully funds the costs of each program.

Beyond just the ability to take a full slate of college level coursework, the kids get opportunities to do research, they are supported in applying for prestigious scholarships and competing in the various science competitions (Intel, Siemens, etc.), and there is the possibility to study abroad during summer and winter terms.

I am interested in knowing - if your son or daughter was eligible for the program and had a shot of getting in, would you support them in applying if they were interested? How would you evaluate this? What are the pros and cons in your opinion? Academically? Socially?

http://www.wku.edu/academy/documents/14-15_profile.pdf

If my child was bored in HS seemed mature enough to live away from home, and sounded interested I’d certainly investigate these options. I’d visit the schools, meet with the people running the programs, etc.before committing to my child that they could apply/attend. I’d also ask if the graduates of these programs apply to college as a freshman or transfer student (because merit aid tends to go to freshmen)?

My son took 10 classes are local U his junior year. I would not have wanted him to move away, as we live a few miles away.

A few years ago, in FL, the state officially lunched a program for HS students to take classes at a local U. Living on campus was not a requirement.

There is a very similar program at UW Seattle. I knew a family whose D had great success with it and went on to work on her Ph. D at 18. She was super gifted-off the charts-so I think for her, it was a good move. A girl at D’s HS applied this year but did not get in. She had the stats, but her maturity level simply wasn’t there. I was not surprised to learn she was not chosen. To do such a program you really need to be incredibly mature in addition to being “book smart”. Not all super-bright kids are.

There are a number of early college programs that will admit students as young as 9th grade age, but few are free, and most are early admission to college proper rather than dual enrollment (which allows the student to later apply elsewhere as a college freshman). Here is one list: http://www.hoagiesgifted.net/early_college.htm

Yes, I would consider a program like this if I had a kid who was academically ready, and who was chomping at the bit to leave home.

Some states have selective public boarding schools for math/science or the arts where kids get free room/board/tuition for the last two years of high school. They don’t get college credit, though–but this seems like a similar idea with the bonus of credit. As a parent my main concern would be with having my child living far away from home at a young age. I realize a lot of kids do this, but I’m not entirely comfortable with it. Putting high school kids, even if they are in a separate dorm, into a college campus situation with older students makes me a little more uneasy than having them attend a boarding high school. If my kid were really interested in taking the initiative to apply to a program like this, I would support him/her if I thought he/she was mature enough to live away from home.

Personally, I wouldn’t send my child away from home at that age, but if your local school options are lousy I suppose it might be worth it for a sufficiently mature and motivated kid. I would also be concerned about being among just 100 high school kids on a college campus. I wouldn’t want my 15 year old daughter living on a college campus among college students. She is exceptionally mature for her age, but still, we all know what happens to freshman women each fall. Think about that. In any case, she wouldn’t want to leave her friends and her school offers reasonably good academics. Many colleges will accept AP credits anyhow so I don’t see a big deal about getting college credits. I also don’t see what is the hurry–is it your child’s goal to graduate from college at 19? To what end?

I think that after their sophomore year, aren’t most kids 16 and not 15? But I did want to address the “young” and “to what end” part, since my D will be graduating HS next spring at 16. She won’t turn 17 until late October of her freshman year in college. She will be skipping her junior year of HS by taking extra summer classes, and began K a year early, so she’ll essentially be graduating two years ahead of her peers.

We’re letting her do this for many reasons-maturity, for one, since she has always fit in better with older kids and even now is mistaken for a COLLEGE graduate in the course of conversation. Two, because she’s applying to schools with long histories of taking young students and with very strong freshman support programs as well as strict campus rules in general. Some have curfews, most don’t allow opposite sex visits at all, never mind overnight. Three, because D has known for years exactly what she wants to do, and it’s only become MORE solidified, not changing over time.

To what end? Well, my D’s 50-year plan includes a Master’s and a Ph. D, starting a foundation, taking it bicoastal, and running for office. She has places to go and things to do and if she can start working on her plan sooner than later, she’s for it. D’s school isn’t terrible. It’s actually very good, and kids get amazing opportunities there. But D has already been chosen for many of them, and has completed them, or will by the end of this summer. Some of the senior classes are individualized so she’d rather just move on.

Do I worry about what happens to SOME freshman girls? Of course. But they don’t HAVE to. D has already showed us that she’s alert and aware when around older kids, and makes good choices when she’s not around us. She leaves Sunday for her 4th time in a setting without close adult supervision around older students (she always the youngest in everything). We have every reason to believe she’ll do just as well this time around.

My daughter was 15 as a high school junior. I would not have pushed such an opportunity, as she would have given up so much of high school, including sports. My other daughter was just not mature enough (neither were). I’m not big on high school students taking classes with students who are much older, and many on the campus of our urban school that has a dual enrollment program with most of the school districts in the area has a lot of older students. Taking one class at 9 am a few days per week is one thing, but living at the school 24/7, having to deal with banking matters and stolen bikes and getting lap tops repaired is another matter. It was hard enough for my kids to adjust as 17 and 18 year old freshmen, going to the health center when they were sick, registering for classes, knowing when to spend money on food off campus. It’s really been an overwhelming year for me.

On the other hand, I would have done just fine in such a program. I was used to planning my own life and wasn’t attached to any particular activities or sports at my high school. In fact I moved just before senior year so had to start everything over anyway. One thing I’d look into would be the high school level opportunities for these students. Would they be able to participate in anything like orchestra/band, Model UN, debate, theater, sports?

I took dual-enrollment classes full-time in my senior year of high school, even though I never had any intentions of getting a bachelor’s degree in fewer than four years. I just wanted to take college classes without paying for them. (My high school only had four AP classes, and I wanted to take classes that don’t have AP equivalents.)

Go for it, @LOUKYDAD , after extensively investigating it with your student’s needs in mind, of course.

We’ve had exposure to Gatton since we visited WKU for a Duke TIP award event when my D was in 7th grade, and we would have leaped at that opportunity (at least to find out more) if my D had a STEM orientation, however she does not.

You may know that Gatton scored as the #1 high school in KY in U.S. News & World Report / Daily Beast results in 2013, which I think is a little bogus since it’s not really a high school in its own right, but certainly says a lot about the environment. http://wfpl.org/kentucky-high-school-best-us-says-newsweekthe-daily-beast/

Everyone stays in one dedicated residence, and there’s a big focus on the young people’s special security needs, for example if a Gatton student wants to bring a car to campus (which is discouraged), it has to be kept in a controlled off-campus location and only taken out with specific permission.

Used to be all-female, I think that may still be the case but am not sure.

Like so many things, it depends on the kid. A friends two kids both did FT dual-enrollment and got their AA’s. One transferred into a 4-year college as a junior and is now on her Ph.D at 20. The other used his AA to get him a higher ranking when he entered the military. One of D’s friends is doing it just to take different classes but without leaving his “choice school” so he can remain on the speech team. OTOH, lots of kids don’t care about all the HS level EC’s and will be fine with the EC’s at the college should they attend early. And some 18-19 yo’s have trouble finding the health center and managing their money. It all depends, like I said.

I am a parent of a recent Gatton Academy graduate. Throughout two years, we had nothing but positive experience. The staffs at the Academy are wonderful, helpful and took very good care of students. They are the parents away from home. Gatton is not just getting college credit or rush to finish college early. There are opportunities student can hardly get from anywhere else. Students do research, study abroad and course selections are excellent. It’s the place where students do learn and explore. Admission process is not just based on ACT and GPAs. Students have to write essays and go through interviews, just like college admissions. As long as student and parents are ready, it is a very good program. Students will certainly be ready for college by the time they graduate from Gatton. After all, our primary hope has been that our child will be ready to tackle college life. :)>-

@LOUKYDAD I see Gatton is now co-ed, 60 boys and 60 girls.

I would say right now son and I are torn between the opportunities these programs present and the concern that he may miss out on a lot socially and otherwise back home. He has grown up living in the same town all his life and therefore would be leaving behind the only peer group he has ever known. He would be giving up high school XC/track and probably other ECs, things he enjoys but maybe not enough to be deal killers.

His high school is decent. He does have the opportunity to take a lot of APs, although in a few cases they have trouble filling them due to lack of interest, at least in the science area. AP Chemistry didn’t happen last year for example. It would be a very different environment I am sure, to go from being the “smart kid” to being in a school surrounded by peers who are all bright.

He is very mature and responsible for his age. He is on the older side of his class from an age perspective. If he were to go he would actually turn 17 during the initial fall semester. Even though he is mature though, that doesn’t mean he would necessarily be happy there. I worry that he would was miss out on a lot socially and otherwise. IMO life is a lot more than just academic opportunities. He is certainly thriving where he is academically and otherwise. He does express some frustration with how easy his classes are and the slow pace. This could improve as he reaches some of the more challenging APs.

His mom would have the hardest time with this, her first baby leaving home. And I won’t lie, I would too. But I wouldn’t hold him back from it if it something he decides he really wants to do. Of course, we realize any internal struggles we have over this could be irrelevant, as he may not get in anyways. I think he would be a competitive candidate, but it is pretty selective and it is hardly a slam dunk.

Thanks to all for your comments. I was curious how other families would think about this.

Ninja dad - thanks for sharing. I would love to hear more about your D experience at Gatton and its impact on her, what she went on to do, etc. Please share if you feel comfortable or send me a PM if you prefer.

I think it depends on the kid. So’tcially and academically. I am assuming that students make good friends over the course of the two years but when they get to college, the students there will have already been friends for two years. And some don’t much care about leaving their original school, others do. Some are bored if classes aren’t hallenging and others just use the extra time to do other stuff outside of school.

A couple of questions: in our state and maybe others, once you finish one year of college, you can automatically get a high school diploma, so I don’t see the point of a dual enrollment program that is for the full two years of jr.and sr. year: why not just go to a college? (This could also include living at home.)

If you do two years of this program, what schools can you go to? Some of the highly selective schools do not take transfers, and for STEM, many schools have their own sequence and their own required coursework, so this may not work. How did transferring go for those whose kids have already attended?

This type of opportunity is rare. If offered, I’d encourage my kid to go as long as the campus program is safe and adapted to 16 - 18 year-old kids. One of my D’s had back-to-back Girls State and Governor’s School before her senior year of high school. Both were great experiences, socially and academically. We had no issue when she moved into her college dorm. She’d been there, done that.

This is a lengthy post, but I hope it is worth your reading….

I’ve had my two youngest sons graduate from the Gatton Academy, one in 2013, and the other one this past May 2015. (Our eldest would probably have thrived at the academy, but it arrived on the scene too late for him). While my wife and I, along with our middle son, were understandably apprehensive and cautious about this kind of move, we’ve had absolutely no regrets in retrospect. That was obviously the case, as it was just assumed that our youngest son would apply after his older brother’s wonderful experience.

Both of them blossomed not only academically, but also socially and vocationally. Both are now pursuing their education in very selective schools. The middle son is doing an internship in Europe this summer and will be leading an engineering project in Ghana during August. The youngest son is continuing research begun last summer at Los Alamos Laboratory and will pursue a “Bridge Year” service program in Senegal this upcoming year. Neither son would have had the opportunities to pursue these “dream” opportunities without their experience at Gatton.

Obviously, I am a proponent of the academy. And whether your child matriculates there, it is certainly worth serious consideration for application. Applying doesn’t mean acceptance, and acceptance doesn’t mean attendance. But you will never know until you gather information to make application. To that end, I’d love to direct readers to the Gatton website here: https://www.wku.edu/academy/admissions/index.php

But I’d like to answer your questions, in order, which each of you have raised, just to fill-in gaps. So, here goes, in the next post…

@happyone - “do graduates apply to college as freshmen or transfer students?” The answer just depends on what a Gatton graduate wants to do with her/his college credits. As a general rule, the more selective colleges will accept very few of these college credits, if any. They will, however, allow students to take tests to determine placement. On the other hand, in-state Kentucky state schools will accept practically all of the the credit. Both of my sons had accumulated over 100 hours of college credit, none of which their schools accepted. Why did they choose to do that? They are able to take more intensive courses, do research, double-major, and travel abroad at their schools. On the other hand, they have friends who banked their college credits in-state and will be in medical school this fall as 20 year-olds. All the RESIDENTIAL college credit just gives the student many more options and opportunities.

@bookworm - If your child is taking classes at a local college, they may be getting “countable college credit,” but unless the student is in residence, most of the more selective colleges will not view it very favorably. As a matter of fact, scoring a 5 on an AP exam is probably worth more to an Ivy League school than a non-residential college course credit.

@sseamom - You are correct in that it isn’t just about academics, but maturity. Physically the child can be a 15 year-old, but they need to have the academics and responsible maturity of a 18-19 year-old.

@happymomof1- Yes to everything you said.

@atomom - You understand the “bonus” not only of college credit, but RESIDENTIAL college credit. It is a huge benefit. The benefit of the academy is that it seems to have found a “sweet spot” between having the students in the academic mix of older college students, yet the building/dormitory itself is a protected haven with outstanding staff who fill the roles of counselor, mentor, guide, and surrogate parent. It is difficult to describe without serious inquiry/conversation with other Gatton families.

@mathyone - I hear what you are saying. (Actually, there will be 200 students in two years). My only response to your “to what end” question is this: ask other Gatton parents and students. It may not be for your child, but it isn’t just about extra college credits, its about having your child blossom in an environment where “the lid is off learning and exploration!” Keep your options open!

@sseamom - Yes, you get the picture.

@twoinanddone - About the question of your child “having given up so much of high school, including sports.” It is true that your student will have to give up, in some way, their other relationships and activities. Specifically, if your child is a student athlete, he/she will not be able to to compete at the college level, as there are rules against it. They can, however participate in intramural sports. Also, if they are involved with music like band, or orchestra - they can continue to pursue those interests and activities. The question to ask yourself is whether or not your student is interested/talented enough to place their sporting interest over their academic goals. That is something you have to decide. But as for giving up relationships… I think that the overwhelming consensus of Gatton students is that their “Gatton family relationships” are much more meaningful than those they developed from their sending high schools. Also, Gatton still has Winter Formal, Prom, Holiday Parties… plus added bonuses of Weekend Programming, Trips to Greece/England/Costa Rica/China….

@halcyonheather - You sound like a typical Gatton student, desiring to take interesting college-level classes beyond the AP offerings. The benefit of the Gatton Academy is that all your classes are college level AND residential.

@ohiovalley16 - It sounds like you’ve had exposure to Gatton. You bring up a good point about the STEM focus. There is also a “flip side” to that point. Even though it is a STEM Academy, one has to remember that ALL the classes (English, History, Humanities, Social Science) are ALSO college level classes. So, the student really has to be strong in all academic areas in order to succeed. I know that Gatton weighs the entire balance of students’ academic records in the admissions process. It does little good to have excellent STEM grades, counterbalanced with C’s and D’s in other coursework. And just to correct the record, the academy has always been co-ed.

@sseamom - I agree again. It depends on your child.

@ninjadad - We’ve been there and done that, haven’t we? Please correct me or add to any of my comments.

@ohiovalley - It has always been co-ed. They will be expanding to 100 boys and 100 girls over the next 2 years.

@LOUKYDAD - We’ve been there friend. I’ll respond to you, just like I have with others concerned about letting your child leave 2 years early. My response is this: “You are going to have to leave your child at some point (probably 2 years). Your child has already (probably) shown that he is a fast learner, right? It isn’t doing him any additional good to be held back for 2 years at home, is it? Even though you and mother WILL miss him, you will know that he is blossoming into a young man which would not have been possible without your LETTING HIM GO.” I’d encourage you to keep inquiring, and give the application process a chance. Your son deserves it.

@compmom - I think I’ve addressed most of your questions already. But let me just give you the list of colleges where the Gatton class of 2015 matriculated. In the fall of 2015, students from the graduating class will attend 30 colleges and universities across the United States: Carnegie Mellon University, Columbia University, Cornell University, Duke University, Emory University, Georgia Institute of Technology, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Northeastern University, Princeton University, Reed College, Rice University, Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology, Stanford University, The University of Alabama in Huntsville, Thomas More College, Tulane University, Union College, University of Chicago, University of Colorado Boulder, University of Kentucky, University of Louisville, University of Notre Dame, University of Pennsylvania, University of Rochester, University of Southern California, University of Tennessee Knoxville, Vanderbilt University, Washington University in St. Louis, Western Kentucky University and Western Washington University. Four-year scholarships totaling more than $15.6 million were offered to the graduating class with approximately $4 million in scholarships accepted.

@Knoxpatch - Good to hear about your experience!

Finally, check out the Academy’s Facebook Page, at: https://www.facebook.com/gattonacademy?fref=ts

I hope all this is genuinely helpful!