<p>Poih-
Would you consider someone who is agnostic, believes in a higher power/god, and celebrates some holidays to be uneducated?</p>
<p>This atheist is happy to celebrate the birth of Jesus.</p>
<p>Haven’t read the whole thread, so please forgive me if this question has been answered. </p>
<p>What holiday was she celebrating? It doesn’t sound like the Sabbath, because she could start using electricity Thursday night. So graduation was on a Thursday.</p>
<p>I am starting to wonder it part of the problem with POIH’s way of thinking is that perhaps he came from a culture where punishment was the great motivator for all behavior? You do what you do for fear of what would happen if you didn’t? Why else would he seem to assume that this is the only possible motivation for someone to observe religious practice? And in his mind since religious belief is irrational since there is nothing in fact to fear, such a fear is superstitious?</p>
<p>We here in America are used to the concept of freedom – we do things because we are free to do what we want – including observe our religious beliefs. Our every day life isn’t centered around the fear that something will happen to us if we don’t do something.</p>
<p>POIH simply can’t seem to understand that most people don’t practice their religious because they fear God smiting them if they don’t. They do so because of the uplifting feeling they get for following a religious tradition that either was handed down to them from their family or they discovered on their own which makes then simply feel good – makes them feel part of something larger than themselves. </p>
<p>Judaism provides a way of interacting with the world. Viewing food as something to be approached thoughtfully and thankfully and with a sense of restraint. Viewing our dominion over nature as limited – to take one day a week where we step back and do not try to alter the world around us, but rather to refrain from “work.” The reward for following the mitzvot (the Jewish laws) is not earning points with God or avoiding his wrath – the reward for following the mitzvot is living a life that is deemed good and worthwhile in and of itself.</p>
<p>Since POIH is simply incapable of understanding such religious motivation, nothing any of us can say will ever convince him. Personally I find it somewhat sad that whatever his life experience has been it has left him with such a small view of other people’s motives in life.</p>
<p>ellenope – she was observing Shavuot (alternatively pronounced Shavuos) which began sundown Tuesday and ended an hour after sundown on Thursday.</p>
<p>I never heard of a public hs graduation on a Thursday. I’ve always known of them on a Fri, Sat or Sun. I think a rule is being broken somewhere and someone should get on it, stat.</p>
<p>^Ours is always on a Thursday. (Unless of course it’s a Jewish holiday.)</p>
<p>Many practices in religions start off as acts of self-discipline, as a way of using the act to bring ones thoughts and behavior closer to God and/or living a more spiritually driven life, not just one of the flesh. It is very easy for those acts to slip into a superstitious behavior, if one isn’t taught the reasoning behind it. Since I am Episcopal (and I didn’t grow up going to Church) I can use the example of Lent: the habit is to “give up something” for Lent. It’s supposed to help remind you of what Christ did for you by giving up his life on the cross. A typical Catholic Lenten behavior is to not eat meat on Fridays. I know old-time Catholics who do feel that if you slip up and eat meat on a Lenten Friday, then you are in big trouble! That may border on the superstitious. But using the self discipline of giving something up for 40 days in order to concentrate on other parts of the human experience outside of the flesh is commendable. If I slip up and have a hamburger on a Friday, I don’t think I’m going to hell (honestly, I have a long list of things that are going to get me there much quicker than the hamburger!) but I usually am disappointed in my lack of self-discipline. </p>
<p>What little I know about the Mormon experience is that they take the care of their physical selves very seriously as part of their religious tenet. Very careful about what they consume & about being physically active. I’ve been told that the BYU campus is the fittest anywhere 
Their rules & regulations seem to reflect that.</p>
<p>Religions sprung up around the world for a number of reasons including what neuroscientists have been discussing the past decade or so: there seems to be a need in humans for a spiritual life. And most religions are rooted in making sure that basic societal norms are in place (i.e. see the 10 Commandments: don’t kill, don’t lie, etc.) Of course, most atheists agree with the 10 Commandments in practice as well. A second set of norms is usually in place for that religious community help its practitioners live a full life as well as not burden the religious community with long term issues of it’s members (i.e. the Mormon community focus on health means that it’s members won’t have as many medical issues down the road; Buddhists focus on meditation probably means not as much heart/blood pressure issues etc.) </p>
<p>All of this to say POIH, that the individual practices can border on superstition if not done thoughtfully, with consideration of the theory behind them. But an intelligent person complying with those practices is using self-discipline to elevate their life beyond the flesh. </p>
<p>And honestly as a parent, if the girl was standing there and the speech was being played back on the recording, I probably wouldn’t even notice, because I’d be too busy wrangling with the 3 grandparents 
But it doesn’t affect anyone but the a/v guy at the venue.</p>
<p>Thanks, unbelievablem. </p>
<p>Our local high schools always graduate on a Wednesday or Thursday, PG. [Please forgive me if you were just kidding.]</p>
<p>I suppose that with the plurality of religions in our country, different people celebrate the Sabbath on Friday, Saturday or Sunday and have differing rituals and restrictions. I hope that we as a society are flexible enough to come up with solutions. (Pinning the tassel on the turban was just such an example!)</p>
<p>As for differing views of religion depending on whether you are “in the fold” or “out of the fold,” I learned that one man’s mythology is another man’s religion. (Alex Trebek on Jeopardy was apologizing–a couple of nights earlier, there was a category on the board called “Hindu Mythology.” One watcher wrote in to complain that, “Hey, that’s my religion you’re talking about.”)</p>
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<p>At my daughter’s recent college graduation, several graduates wearing turbans did not wear their caps or tassels. But this was college, where the rules for graduation attire are pretty loose. For example, there was no prohibition on decorating the mortarboards. Several presumably Hawaiian students put white letters on their caps that, when they stood in the right order, spelled out “ALOHA.” And a guy who decorated his mortarboard with a house of cards was photographed for the college Web site. </p>
<p>I don’t know what would be done at a high school graduation, where the rules are usually stricter.</p>
<p>"But underlying all the religious practices is the belief that if you do something, your God will be pleased, and if you don’t he will be mad at you. "</p>
<p>R. Dov Ber and his wife lived in a ramshackle hut on the bank of a river that divided the town. When their son Avraham was born, there wasn’t even enough money to buy him an herb needed for his health.</p>
<p>Once, when the hunger in the household became unbearable, his wife complained, “This is how you provide for us with your service of God?!”</p>
<p>“Very well,” he replied, “the Jews who have abandoned us to such shameful hunger deserve to be condemned!”</p>
<p>Going outside, he lifted his eyes Heavenwards and proclaimed joyfully, “May the Jews be abundantly blessed!”</p>
<p>But when he returned home, he heard his wife sigh even more deeply. “Now I’ll truly give then what they deserve,” he told her.</p>
<p>“What can I do if I cannot control my anger?” said the Maggid as he went out a second time. “I must indict the Jews! May HaShem grant them abundance, success and enormous wealth - but let it be bestowed on inanimate trees and stones!”</p>
<p>The Maggid’s poverty persisted over the years, and he grew depressed. As he heaved a deep sigh, he heard a Heavenly voice proclaim that he had lost his share in the World to Come.</p>
<p>Stunned with fear, the Maggid began to quake. He had lost both worlds, for in this world he had nothing, and now the next world had been denied him. But in the next moment he rejoiced, saying, “Now I can truly serve HaShem without expecting any reward. For if I love HaShem, what more do I need?”</p>
<p>All graduations in my area are done tues–thursday</p>
<p>In our area, they’re run Monday through Friday, sometimes as many as three a day (morning, afternoon, and evening) because most schools use the same facility – the only one in the area that has sufficient seating and can be rented at a reasonable price. We have 24 high schools, so it takes the better part of two weeks to get everybody graduated.</p>
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<p>It has been stated over and over on this thread that the reasons for this young woman’s observance of Jewish laws on her holiday (which fell on graduation day) had NOTHING to do with superstitions that something bad was going to happen to her if she didn’t follow Jewish Orthodox laws. The reason to follow her laws has nothing to do with fear of something bad happening! It has nothing to do with superstition!!! Posts 410 and 425 explain it well. She was keeping customs, observances, rituals, and traditions alive that she adheres to on her holidays. She wanted to observe these customs, but not out of fear of something befalling her if she didn’t. She didn’t WANT to not follow her customs for the holiday because that’s who she is, as part of her identity as an Orthodox Jew. She wanted to be free to observe her religious holiday according to the laws of her religion. Our country allows such freedoms to worship. Her rationale for observing her Orthodox rules had nothing to do with fears of reprisal if she broke any traditions or customs. That is why the use of the word, “superstition,” in this context is quite offensive. It has nothing to do with this girl’s reasons.</p>
<p>High school graduation where my kids went to school was held on Saturdays.</p>
<p>I think memloparkmom in post #380 probably provided the best analysis of POIH. Total absence of empathy for the feelings of others, no understanding or respect for cultural diversity. My own MIT neuroscience trained daughter would probably say is he is far out on the Asperger scale. My wife would probably say he reminds her of Larry David, the “Social Assassin” on “Curb your Enthusiasm”. While many people would just roll their eyes at the girl’s decision not to use a microphone, POIH makes a big stink out of it and gets everybody p***ed! I wonder what POIH does when a vegetarian friend from India visits him. Does he serve him a vegetarian meal or shove a burger in front of him and call him an uneducated fool if he does not eat it? </p>
<p>Where POIH loses me is when he conflates lack of education with respect for traditions. It is quite clear that POIH’s own education is extremely limited in areas such as history, cultural anthropology, philosophy or religious literature. He simply can’t know what he does not know. </p>
<p>Like mathmom I am an atheist but I still go every year for a midnight Christmas service at our local Congregational Church, because it is a very pretty ceremony with beautiful music and hymns. I sing along and (gasp!) even partake in the common prayer even though I don’t accept Jesus as my savior. I do it by tradition and see no ill effects from it. It even makes me feel happy to share this joyous moment with everybody else in the church. I don’t believe in Moses or Jesus as real historical figures but it didn’t prevent me from having our daughters confirmed in the church when they were younger. I did it by tradition as I was once confirmed myself and my father before me. My children will make their own decision later about their faith just like I did, but i didn’t want to stack the deck. I don’t equate religious beliefs with greater morality and am very skeptical about any form of organized religion. At the same time, I have read the Old and New Testament cover to cover, even though I don’t believe the texts were written at the times they are claimed to have been written or by the people to whom the texts are attributed. But these are wonderful pieces of literature that every “educated” person should read, whether religious or not. </p>
<p>I think POIH would gain a lot by broadening is own education. I am sure that his D at MIT is already doing that, where the liberal arts are actually a big part of the core requirements. One of the best classes my D had at MIT was a class on comparative religion, discussing religious traditions and beliefs with members of many different faiths.</p>
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He may not want to return to a country with so many sacred cows.</p>
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<p>Not having previously had much experience reading any of POIH’s posts in other threads, I am only now coming to realize that he does seem completely incapable of empathy. He simply cannot imagine someone having any motivation other than the one he assumes that they have.</p>
<p>I am also feeling that trying to use logic to get him to be more empathetic is like screaming at a deaf person to get them to hear me or telling a blind person to look harder at the newspaper in front of him.</p>
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<p>Interesting. Here they are simply held in the high school gym … No need for any outside facility.</p>
<p>cellardwellar…post 436 truly articulates this situation well.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl…our high school graduations set up a large tent on the front lawn of the high school on a Saturday morning. My D gave the valedictory speech with a microphone. She was one of the only Jews in the class (possibly the only one with two Jewish parents). However, she is not Orthodox. But had she asked to give the speech in a recording due to her religious observance of the Sabbath, I would have been proud for her to stay true to her beliefs/traditions and for educating the audience who would have likely respected her decision.</p>